[Deck] Zoo

@Artlee:

Yeah i agree with those things. Getting rid of the Bridges and maybe removing moebas would be a nice way to go. I see that applying early pressure is the key but also you need to hold back if you suspect an impending sweeper effect. I guess its about finding a trade off of both.

Another thing I would like to know is how you people have built your SBs. I did a search of 10 different zoo decks and made a graf of the most popular and used Zoo SB cards (I know the current meta at your gaming place is an influential factor, but go with me here). THe most used cards top10 were, from top down:

Pyroblast/REB -good with anti-blue with all the BUG decks atm..
Tormod's Crypt - GY hate at almost instant speed
Gaddock Teeg - very nice for combo, but difficult to draw without GSZ
Ancient Grudge - nice artifact removal
Faerie Macabre - instant GY hate - limited to 2 cards though
Mindbreak Trap - answer to combo?
Ethersworn Canonist - for elves, storm, etc
Granger Guildmage - 5th lavamancer?
Swords to Plowshares - more removal - gives life tho - good with SUlfuric vortex
Bojuka Bog-Best with KNights in deck
Krosan Grip - answer for tops, deeds or EEs.
Path to Exile - nice removal for very aggro decks
Enlightened Tutor - toolbox card
Karakas - for clique, Taxes and Griselbrand
Price of Progress-very nice burn - useless against most decks and people will play around it
Qasali Pridemage - toolbox critter
Rest in Peace - nice removal, but subject to remova and hits your goyf+lavamancers
Scavenger Ooze - very good GY hate and body, but rather slow for zoo?
Smash to Smithereens - burn, artifact solution
Sulfuric vortex - additionals for slow control decks?
Umezawa's Jitte - always a threat!
Volcanic Fallout - sweeps dredge zombies, goblins and elves - hits most of your own (except potentially nacatl, goyf, kird ape, steppe lynx, knight if used, etc)

How do you SB? Any comments? I think it would be nice with a lot of inputs for comparable analysi (pl?).

My own look like this:
3 Pyroblast
1 Teeg
2 A. grudge
3 Faerie macabre - not sure if they are good but people seems to like them.
2 canonist
3 path to exile (and 1 MD)
1 sulfuric vortex (and 2 MD)

I think i'm pretty covered against both BUG or control decks and GY decks. Combo might be a problem if i dont draw teeg or canonist.

Lets discuss :)

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Originally Posted by Neffy

@Artlee:

My own look like this:
3 Pyroblast
1 Teeg
2 A. grudge
3 Faerie macabre - not sure if they are good but people seems to like them.
2 canonist
3 path to exile (and 1 MD)
1 sulfuric vortex (and 2 MD)

I think i'm pretty covered against both BUG or control decks and GY decks. Combo might be a problem if i dont draw teeg or canonist.

Lets discuss :)

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First and foremost, all Paths should be main deck. I don't think that this comes down to subjective opinion and is rather solidified fact. I do not see the logic in playing a single Path is Zoo.

Second, on a more personal note, I prefer Surgical Extraction (or even Crypt) over Macabre as they are both more efficient and effective in their purpose.

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Originally Posted by Demonic_Attorney

First and foremost, all Paths should be main deck. I don't think that this comes down to subjective opinion and is rather solidified fact. I do not see the logic in playing a single Path is Zoo.

Second, on a more personal note, I prefer Surgical Extraction (or even Crypt) over Macabre as they are both more efficient and effective in their purpose.

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Well, if you look at the zoo deck that placed second of 350 decks(!), there are 3 swords main. I guess that cracks your "solidified fact". Wanna know why? Because path works bad with Thalia and Wasteland. Path is great in fast zoo decks, like 1 drop zoo with Guide and alike, but when you move towards builds with knight of the reliquary and green zun you can start to look towards swords to plowshares. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I do think that going for path promtly can be a mistake, given the build you are playing.

Decklist is here
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=65151

I'm not sure if how you classify the deck I'm going to post, but I think it may be either zoo, goyf sligh, or a hybrid of the two. I have been playing this deck with favorable results, and I think this deck has what it takes. I am going to run it in a couple trials and if it wins I will keep playing it. Here is the list.

Lands
3 - Plateau
3 - Taiga
2 - Savahna
1 - Bayou
2 - Wasteland
1 - Plains
1 - Forest
1 - Mountain
3 - Windswept Heath
2 - Wooded Foothills
2 - Arid Mesa

Red Spells
4 - Lightning Bolt
4 - Chain Lightning

Green Spells
3 - Green Sun's Zenith
1 - Rancor

White Spells
3 - Lingering Souls
4 - Path to Exile

Artifacts
1 - Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures
4 - Tarmogoyf
4 - Kird Ape
4 - Wild Nacatl
4 - Qasali Pridemage
3 - Nimble Mongoose

Sideboard
1 - Rancor
3 - Scavenging Ooze
4 - Tormod's Crypt
2 - Ethersworn Canonist
2 - Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 - Oblivion Ring

I usually only play with cards and archetypes I really like, and I won't play with cards I am not a big fan of although they may be very successful in other builds. That being said I pretty much try to have as much fun as I can while keeping my decks tournament level. Those cards are some of my favorites, and I had been trying to find a good zoo or sligh build to play, and I think this may be it. I hope you try it out and tell me what you think about it.

I had to change nimble mongoose to scavening ooze for obvious reasons. its been a while since I have played zoo.I had to change the oblivion rings to krosan grips to try and stop life gain. it seems like snapcaster mage and teminus make playing creatures a bad idea in this format. It was never like that before. They said they banned balance for these reasons, and then they print terminus. With terminus they do not even have to discard, so one terminus is like an auto win. Was there some need to hose down the creature decks so badly?

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Originally Posted by jtos84

I had to change nimble mongoose to scavening ooze for obvious reasons. its been a while since I have played zoo.I had to change the oblivion rings to krosan grips to try and stop life gain. it seems like snapcaster mage and teminus make playing creatures a bad idea in this format. It was never like that before. They said they banned balance for these reasons, and then they print terminus. With terminus they do not even have to discard, so one terminus is like an auto win. Was there some need to hose down the creature decks so badly?

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I personally stopped playing Zoo after Snapcaster was printed. What do you mean by krosan grips over oblivion rings to stop life gain?

I was going to use oblivion ring for batterskull and jitte, but blue and white decks have more than enoughs tools to make impossible games. I put a couple sulfuric vortexes in the maindeck, and one in the side, and also three krosan grips in the s/b. That bad part is you can never really say anything about cards like terminus because noone ever listens. When they print cards they let them wreck formats for quite a while. This deck has quit a few games before the changes. It has won enough that I would play it in a tournament for sure.

I prefer Ancient Grudge's over Krosan Grips. You can play around terminus by not overextending on board and getting all your guys wiped out. Mongoose is great at that :cool:

I have learned about not overextending already. I just didn't think the deck would still work when played very conservativley, but it does. I think I am going to take out the green sun's zenith for loam lions. I was not very enthused with that card on paper, but after playing the deck without it I can appreciate its efficiency. I think your right about ancient grudge. What happens when you run into a counterbalance though? The deck has qasali pridemge, but if it is countered that would easily be game.

Despite using cards that arn't even optimal for the deck the wins far outsize the losses. Lingering souls wins quite a few games. Now that I think of it ancient grudge can take out the sensei's divining top when it is activated for the draw. I guess counterbalance is a shot in the dark without top.

Played this weekend a 93 people tournament with this deck and ended up in 32nd:


2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Kird Ape
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Wasteland
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Granger Guildmage
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy

SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing

Was supposed to use 2 more Wasteland instea dof those two Canopy but my cards didn't arrive yet - And I got to lose a match against 12 Post because of that.

My matches were:
Round 1 - RUG Delver - 1x2 lose. I don't remember a lot of that match except he played a Stromkirk Captain lol. I remember it being a very fair match though.

Round 2 - Rug Delver again. 2x1 win! Won first and third games, being the third he having 2 thresholding mangooses and 2 lands in play, and then I play a Tormod and a Reliquary and pray that he doesnt have submerges on his hand. I search for a Wasteland in the end of his turn and for another in my turn, wipe his graveyard with Tormod and he gives up.

Round 3 - Another Canadian! Lost by 0x2. Can't remember much about this game except that I started with a perfect hand on the second game and flooded lands.

Sideboard used for these matches: -2 Kird Ape -1 Karakas -1 Lavamancer -1 Guildmage (since I can't target mangooses nor effectively kill Tarmo I took those out, still effective for Delver, sure) +1 Surgical +Bojuka +Tormod +2 REB/pyroblast

Round 4 - 12 Post - 0x2 - lose. First game was pretty clueless for me as he played an Ancient Tomb, then a second turn island + Show and Tell for Emrakul. I boarded for SaT/Omnitell which was all REB effects + Seal of Cleansing, Gaddock, Krosan, took away most burns.
Game 2 I learn he's actually playing post, and i start with a pretty strong hand, Wastelanding his first post, destroying Explorer's Map. And then he plays a Glacial Chasm, and i have a Reliquary in play. When he gets active I search for a Wasteland and do a tragic mistake: Using it on the Chasm, when he had the lifegaining Post in game. After that he manages to SaT a green Titan and tutors for nonstop Vesuvas and I cant keep track of his lifegaining.

Round 5 - Dredge - 2x1 - Win! Despite being a combo it's one of my best matchups I believe, for the use of Wastelands, Thalia, Gaddock, and tutorable Bojuka Bog. After a long Game 1 i lose it, and then win both second and third games with well placed Thalias and Reliquary + Wasteland.

Round 6 - UR Delver - 2x0 - Win. He had a constant flow of damage on me, but he couldn't keep up with my own plethora of Nacatls and Goyfs PLUS my own burns.

Round 7 - Goblins - 1x1 - Draw! Quite an extended match, won the first round, and he won the second. Third round would be an easy one if I had gotten ANY kind of burns, but instead he'd use more burns than me with pyroknesis and Gempalm. Luckily I had a lot of strong creatures and managed to endure it through all the round.

Next week i should start using a version with 4 Wastelands and a Maze of Ith though, so perhaps i can get more control over the matches. I've been also thinking of trying the Punishing Zoo approach!

What was the rationale for the way you boarded against RUG Delver?

Grim Lavamancer + burn spell is an excellent way to answer Tarmogoyf, and Kird Ape is one of the scarier cards to see in the early game because it makes you the aggressor. I would not have boarded in the GY hate package against them, it's simply not enough. At the most I would have done +2 REB, +1 GSZ, -1 Granger, -2 Pridemage.

Now that you mention it, maybe Qasali would have been a nice one indeed, though I think maybe that could give an edge in a Tarmo vs Tarmo situation if I don't have any extra burns. I thought the GY hate would be nice because if not through combat, there's no way to deal with the Mangeese. Kird Ape can't deal with it, Lavamancer can't kill it, so i think the reason behind the way I boarded was mostly taking in account Mangoose, and now that I see, I only won the round where that card mattered the most in the match (round 2). But now that you said that, more GSZ and minus Qasali would prolly make it much more aggressive. I'll write that down!
Maybe against RUG the only GY hate i should bring in is Bojuka? Since Karakas is just a white mana in this match? Or woudl it be worthy keeping just for Thalia's sake?

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Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos

Now that you mention it, maybe Qasali would have been a nice one indeed, though I think maybe that could give an edge in a Tarmo vs Tarmo situation if I don't have any extra burns. I thought the GY hate would be nice because if not through combat, there's no way to deal with the Mangeese. Kird Ape can't deal with it, Lavamancer can't kill it, so i think the reason behind the way I boarded was mostly taking in account Mangoose, and now that I see, I only won the round where that card mattered the most in the match (round 2). But now that you said that, more GSZ and minus Qasali would prolly make it much more aggressive. I'll write that down!
Maybe against RUG the only GY hate i should bring in is Bojuka? Since Karakas is just a white mana in this match? Or woudl it be worthy keeping just for Thalia's sake?

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From my experience (playing RUG Delver heavily now, played Zoo frequently a long time ago), the natural answer to ground shenanigans is having access to 4 Tarmogoyf and 4 Knight, which I think is fine even if they have Mongoose available. Kird Ape deals with it in theory because it takes a while to achieve threshold, at which point Zoo has taken its role as the aggressor.

I think Bojuka Bog is actually okay, although (1) I would hate to tutor a whole lot with Knight to begin with due to Submerge, and (2) it doesn't cast anything. Karakas for Thalia is a corner case but is pretty hard for Delver to beat if you have online.

Sweet! i'll defiantely behave like that next time I face a Canadian.
Also, talking a bit about my Goblins match, what do you think that would be a good side in? I think I only sided Gaddock (to prevent pyroknesis alone) and GSZ for more creatures - I think I boarded out the Thalias, since that apparently benefits goblins with the Rishadas and Wastes.

Also feel free to sugest stuff not featured in my own sideboard.

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Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos

Sweet! i'll defiantely behave like that next time I face a Canadian.
Also, talking a bit about my Goblins match, what do you think that would be a good side in? I think I only sided Gaddock (to prevent pyroknesis alone) and GSZ for more creatures - I think I boarded out the Thalias, since that apparently benefits goblins with the Rishadas and Wastes.

Also feel free to sugest stuff not featured in my own sideboard.

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Goblins is a pretty good matchup for Zoo. Keep pressure with Kird Apes, Wild Nacatls and Tarmogoyfs in early turns, and burn everything that's dangerous (Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief). Rancor puts a good effort on their stalling with tokens.

I have always been an advocate for playing STP over Path; however, if your Zoo build plays Thalia and Wasteland, how can one justify playing Path over Swords?

If there is any cogent argument I would like to know?

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Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos

Next week i should start using a version with 4 Wastelands and a Maze of Ith though, so perhaps i can get more control over the matches. I've been also thinking of trying the Punishing Zoo approach!

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I'm probably the biggest advocate of Punishing Fire in Zoo--or at least I was. It really shined against opposing tribal decks, against various midrange decks with easily removable dorks, and against slow control strategies.

Although the engine is admittedly very good against Maverick (as you should get some nice utility before they waste your Groves away), you don't really need Punishing Fires to beat tribal decks. Furthermore, it's still miserable against combo decks. It's not great against the pre-eminent tempo strategy (RUG Delver), although it occasionally has its uses if they're down to Delvers and Goyfs staring at yours. And the only real control strategy (Miracles) in the format now plays Counterbalance to lock out your twos, Rest in Peace to effectively get neuter it, as well as Entreat the Angels to outrace you if you're forced to rely on burning their face with Punishing Fire. In short, this strategy has lost a lot of its luster.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Goblins is a pretty good matchup for Zoo. Keep pressure with Kird Apes, Wild Nacatls and Tarmogoyfs in early turns, and burn everything that's dangerous (Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief). Rancor puts a good effort on their stalling with tokens.

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I should totally try tinkering again with rancor, they are awesome paired with Tarmo/Reliq/Ape, though maybe to make them as effective as possible probably I'd have to try a more "Burn" approach with PoP, Fireblast? Going for the quick kill.

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Originally Posted by Demonic_Attorney

I have always been an advocate for playing STP over Path; however, if your Zoo build plays Thalia and Wasteland, how can one justify playing Path over Swords?

If there is any cogent argument I would like to know?

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I'm not sure if that comment is targetted at me as I use StP too, but yeah, if yes, the reasoning is that: if I'm trying to soft-lock their mana base with Wastes (not perfect right now as I currently have only 2 Wastes, the ideal would be 4 here I think) and Thalia, theres no reason why I should play Path to Exile and give them lands. Same reasoning also for not playing Goblin Guide. Guide and Path are great IMO but in builds that aim to kill real quick, but Thalia can be quite the life saver against a wide range of decks, combo included. And since I'm playing Knight in the deck it all makes even more sense to tutor some wastes and lock them forever. It's pretty annoying when you get to decks such as High Tide though haha, that have only Basic lands.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

I'm probably the biggest advocate of Punishing Fire in Zoo--or at least I was. It really shined against opposing tribal decks, against various midrange decks with easily removable dorks, and against slow control strategies.

Although the engine is admittedly very good against Maverick (as you should get some nice utility before they waste your Groves away), you don't really need Punishing Fires to beat tribal decks. Furthermore, it's still miserable against combo decks. It's not great against the pre-eminent tempo strategy (RUG Delver), although it occasionally has its uses if they're down to Delvers and Goyfs staring at yours. And the only real control strategy (Miracles) in the format now plays Counterbalance to lock out your twos, Rest in Peace to effectively get neuter it, as well as Entreat the Angels to outrace you if you're forced to rely on burning their face with Punishing Fire. In short, this strategy has lost a lot of its luster.

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I totally hear you, Rest in Peace is such an annoying card! It already OHKO this deck when using Knight, Lavamancer and Tarmogoyf, and playing Punishing Fire would be one more contender to be thrown into oblivion haha. But the concept of the approach is very seducing for the way it works - Probably not worth working with Thalia maindeck too? 3 manas (plus 1 getting it from GY) for 2 damage sounds a bit heavy though I guess that build would also use some Nobles..

Talking about it, what do you think that would be the best way to deal with the UW Miracles/RIP build? Krosan Grip is nice and all, but if the opponent gets lucky he might have an Oblivion Ring on top and still counter it. I haven't faced the deck many times yet in brazillian meta, but the times I did was sooo annoying, and such a hard match!

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what do you think that would be the best way to deal with the UW Miracles/RIP build?

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I am trying to build a deck that uses RIP itself, as it hurts quite a lot of decks in my meta. That means not using goyf mainly. I am trying a faster build like the one that placed 2nd at Liga Montserrat Legacy.

Talking about this deck (link: ) I am considering trying out thunderous wrath as a two off and because miracle is quite fun. However do anyone have experience with this card in Zoo? It burns a lot of life away and goes well with sylvan library, but really sux if you draw it in your opening hand?

EDIT: I am also toying with using a singleton ranger of eos - which could work quite nice with vexing devils. Any thoughts? (And i know the arguments for and against vexing devils ;), so no need for those again)

I think it's a very interesting idea! It's kind of weird to think about not using Goyfs, but I see where your argument is, specially if you are gonna use RIP yourself - which means you won't have fear of Mangooses, Goyfs, Knights with those in play. Is this the list you're referring to?

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Vexing Devil
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants [13]
3 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
3 Thunderous Wrath
4 Lightning Bolt


Sorceries [4]
4 Chain Lightning

Enchantments [4]
2 Rancor
2 Sylvan Library

Lands [20]
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa

SB
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened Tutor

It sounds pretty powerful indeed! Ranger of Eos sounds very powerful while using so many 1 drops. Considering you want to also run Thunderous Wrath, AND this 4cc card, have you considered testing out Noble Hierarch too? Might be cool if youre hitting with just one guy, and then also help cast the Ranger and a Thunderous Wrath you had to keep in your opening hand in case the rest of the hand would be too strong to pass. Besides - You wouldn't lose a turn casting Sylvan Library.