You can pitch Ripple to FoW and it cost one less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exuberance
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You can pitch Ripple to FoW and it cost one less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exuberance
Sure, fair points. But Krosan Grip basically can't be countered. And I've never been pressured by a BSkull on turn two. I don't know. I won't knock it until I try it, but it just seems a little silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I agree, it seems like running ghostly flicker. Pseudo removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exuberance
Fire//Ice is basically better in every way. It can actually kill small creatures or weakened PWs, tap down big dudes and deny critical mana sources (the latter two also cantripping). And it pitches to FoW.
Hell, even Pongify would be better if you are just looking for dude killers. Or Vapor Snag if you want a defensive use
there are really better choices for ripple when it comes to removal....
chain, dismember, f/ice, forked bolts, and on the sides we have submerges, roughs, pyroclasm, grudges, grips...etc...
but utility wise it has far more uses...i think..
- it can save our own clock (delvers/goyfs) to game-breaking uncounterable spells such as decays and verdicts...annoying terminus, lili's ang jace's activation..
we have such a limited number of threats (12 the usual), and in some games i do submerge my own crits just to keep some pressure...
- and when we're ahead it can also do what f/ice can tempo-wise by phasing out walls (just w/out the draw)...name it opposing goyfs, tombstalkers, kotrs, oozes..
- is a better removal to batterskull (when uncountered), removes entreat token on the board, can somehow deal with griselbrand vs dismember, other crits that are already equipped with plus/toughness only to be phased out (target the equipment) and be blocked...
- can EoT phase out Cotv (vs us is usually set @ 1) to cast LOTS of our very impt 1cc spells..
- saves our own lands to wastelands. phase out another dual to atleast save 2 more damage vs Pop without destroying it (we usually target our own, just to save some pts off Pop)
since im using dismember, this might be the slot im thinking of replacing for the meantime..
just waiting for the next tourney for it to be tested, i just dont have the time to try it online....
I need to agree with Poxy. If you're looking at RR an are seeing just the removal part of the spell, than it's weaker then other choices. But what makes it interesting is the possibility to use it iether as a removal or as a protection.
Ok, Echoing Truth might be better, but I still think that RR shouldn' be completely overlooked, and I'm interested if Poxy will be satisfied with it.
I'd play vapor snag before increasing my curve beyond tarmogoyfQuote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Back in the Caplan-days Fire/Ice was pretty much one of the better cards you could play in this deck. An automatic 4-of, one could say. Then the banning of Misstep and printing of Delver and Thalia happened and the deck started succeeding while people apparently switched to Forked Bolt.
Has anyone been testing or having success with this ultimate UR tempo card? Turn 1 creature into T2 Fire/Ice is very powerful as it can also turn on your Daze at times when it otherwise would be blank.
Or what are the reasons not to play it now? Casting cost?
The casting cost of 2 are the problem. The card itself and the effect´s are super flexible! But we don´t want a cc2 removal...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
Greetings
Fire/Ice is also slightly better if you expect to see a bunch of fatties, like vs. Reanimator, Sneak and Tell, or something similar because you can Ice to Fog and buy yourself a turn and an attack phase.
Currently, I run 1 Fire/Ice because of the Show and Tell match-up. If I face more Thalia (Maverick, D&T), Tribal, Zoo, I switch to Forked Bolt.
Fire/Ice is also an instant, which allows for EOT casting, combat tricks, killing creatures in response to attaching equipment, targeting with MOM, or other such things.
F/I also picthes to FOW.
Note that Reality Ripple, which was being compared to Fire//Ice, can also fog, it's an instant, and you can even use it after your opponent declares attackers (you can't do that with Fire//Ice, it's too late once they tap to attack).Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
d you keep a f/i pos board? (against reanimator or snt)Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
was able to test REALITY RIPPLE last night, though it'll be very raw since it's not an actual tourney, just a normal playtest with a friend (URNivmagus/pyromancer)
again (RUG stocklist = 3pierce, 2 forked, stifles....snareless, probeless...dismember slot = reality ripple.
was somehow able to draw the lone copy in 6 out of 10 games...some early, some mid game due to cantrips...
4 games (1) upkeep rippled opp. 3rd land drop, he dropped pyro to be met by daze, (2) rippled delver from bolt midgame, (3) rippled goyf (5/6) blocking giant niv (5/6) + bolt to goyf, swing next turn ftw, (4) rippled pyro in response to opp. probe....(less that 2/1 mass blocking swinging goose, probe gives him blank)
2 games = was eaten by FoW
conclusion = was a better topdeck than dismember, though there are still alot of good removals vs RR, (if ur talking bout removals)
+ was the ability to PHASE OUT our clock, and i mainly was testing this card for this particular purpose..decay, liliana's, terminus, verdicts, ee's, ratchets...except for goose, we would still somehow be able to swing back..
more playtesting vs tier1 decks still is very much required..
Note that the last example is totally irrelevant 99% of the time, with the 1% being chalked up to sneak attack or through the breach.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt
I don't understand what Reality Ripple does better than Fire//Ice against Sneak Attack and Through The Breach. You can't target Emrakul anyway, and if you want to stop Griselbrand from attacking, you can tap it in the "Beginning Combat" phase, or phase it out before damage. I'm wondering what happens to the creature that's phased out though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Reality Ripple can sometimes be a better combat trick than Fire//Ice. Let's say your opponent is at 6 and has two 4/5 Tarmogoyf, while you are at 8 and have two threshed Nimble Mongoose. It's his Beginning Combat phase.
Do you Ice one of his goyfs before he attacks with it? If so, he can just keep the second goyf on defense, stopping you from killing him next turn. If you wait until he declares attackers, it's too late for you to Fire//Ice his goyf, you have to double block one goyf or chump block to avoid dieing, losing a Mongoose...
Reality Ripple is a better combat trick in such a situation. If he doesn't attack, you don't "waste" your Reality Ripple pre-combat. If he attacks with one goyf, you take the hit, phase out his second goyf, and attack for the win during the next turn. If he attacks with both goyfs, you phase one out, take the hit from the second one, then attack for the win during the next turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt
Your example still seems like a too-specific scenario. Who is to say that Ice wouldn't draw you into a Submerge or lightning bolt? Or that your opponent would totally swing out against you when he knows that you have two non-interactive creatures and a deck full of cantrips to find you some burn?
The way I see it, RR and Ice are basically the same card most of the time for what you are using them for... except Ice draws a card. And can also actually kill a creature like DRS and can hit a player or planeswalker with Fire.
The only application for RR that intrigues me is the ability to totally remove a batterskull from play. Even then, however, we have no shortage of tools to fight that strategy--stifle, grip/grudge, countering the equipment, snare for SFM...
Hi all, the ultimate lurker here. I have been reading this thread for a couple of years and never posted anything - things are about to change. Beware.
RUG has been my number one deck to go to since the printing of Delver. Below are three reports from local tournaments from the last three weeks.
First the list:
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
Then the tournaments:
Tournament 1
2-1 Shardless BUG: Double Stifle is enough to keep him off mana while Mongooses beat him down. G2 he manages to get everything going. G3 involved Stifles, early pressure, double Daze for his Strix and a Brainstorm held to the last possible moment finding a crucial Bolt on the last turn.
2-0 Team America: He mulled to 6 both games. G1 an early Delver backed up with Daze, Fow and Bolt for his Deathrite are enough. G2 goes longer, but Probe helps me to sequence correctly. We trade some Delvers and eventually he casts a Tombstalker, which I Force and play a Goyf when we are both in top deck mode.
2-0 RUG Delver: Tight plays plus I drew more Goyfs both games. Probes were excellent.
0-2 UWR Delver: G1 he has three lands and a fetch. I have Daze and Stifle. He casts Geist, but his double Daze in response to me cracking a fetch to pay for the first one is enough. I should have fetched first before attempting to Daze but in this situation it would have not mattered anyway. Second game I Ponder, he Wastes and I don't see another reliable mana source the whole game. Probe reveals double Stifle and I draw one fetchland the whole game. Didn't see any Mongooses in any of the two games. Sigh.
2-0 Grixis Delver: G1 is a close race but again a Brainstorm held till the last minute finds a Bolt and seals the deal. G2 I remember having a Goyf and a Mongoose and he has no answers. After he emptied his hand to create Elemental chump blocker tokens from Pyromancer, I played Rough.
4-1-0
Tournament 2
1-1-1 Grixis Delver: I lose G1 to Bob drawing too much gas and me not finding any answers. G2 he keeps a shaky hand with 5 lands but somehow manages to survive to the late game. I eventually beat him down with a Delver and a Mongoose. G3 goes to time. I had two flipped Delvers and two Bolts in hand so I would have probably been able to take this one if I had even one more turn.
2-0 Aluren: G1 I see a Man-O-War and realise he is player Aluren. Better to hold my counters then. He doesn't have it. G2 he attempts to Aluren but I'm armored to the teeth. Long story short.
2-0 Shardless BUG: I have exactly what I need for this match up. A Bolt and 3 Stifles. T1 Shaman eats a Bolt, T2 fetch gets stone rained, T3 Wasteland on his only land and the team finishes him off from there. G2 he manages to play his land drops. He plays a Strix, plays a Shardless Agent cascading into a Goyf, but then makes a mistake and fetches after Goyf has resolved. Snap Submerge the Goyf and Ancient Grudge both of his remaining guys and swing for the win.
2-1 Omni Derp: G1 he Show and Tells a Dream Halls while I'm tapped out. I pitch a Ponder to Spell pierce his Enter the Infinite. He doesn't draw another win condition. G2 we fight over a Show and Tell, but he has FoW and a Pact. Omniscience into Enter into derps into Lab Maniac. I die with two flipped Delvers on the battlefield and one combat step away from victory. G3 I'm a little bit (extremely) tilted and keep a hand with no lands, two Probes, REB, Ponder, Spell Pierce, Daze and a Delver. I trust my opponent having me on FoW if I won't hit my land drops - because how could I otherwise keep a hand like this? I Probe twice and pass, no lands. He looks at me if I'm serious. I just smile and nod subtly. Island cantrip, pass. Draw... not a land, discard, pass. Island, cantrip, pass. Draw... not a land, discard, pass. Things are looking grim. Sol land, cantrip, pass. Draw... Volcanic Island! I don't want to play the Delver here because I need mana for counters. He plays another Island and casts a Show and Tell. I can't remember how this went exactly but I remember a counterwar leaving me tapped out and him with one mana open when Show and Tell resolved. Dream Halls vs Delver. He attempts to Enter but I pitch a blue card for Spell Pierce. He plays a cantrip, which I Daze. On my turn I REB the Dream Halls and start beating with the Delver. On his last turn he manages to Cunning Wish for Noxious Revival into Dream Halls while having a Show and Tell. I double Brainstorm into Daze and Spell Pierce to stop his Enter the Infinite again after the SnT. Felt like winning the lottery.
2-0 Jund: G1 Stifle-Daze-Wasteland trio makes the tempo plan work perfectly for me. A stifle for his Liliana activation and a Bolt to the face is enough. G2 I Waste him off of double black and have Stifles, a FoW and a lot of creatures.
4-0-1
Tournament 3
2-1 BUG Landstill: G1 is miserable for me. I have a Mongoose but sustaining threshold is impossible against two Shamans. A couple of Ancestrals and a Jace later I'm buried deep under card advantage. G2 is a strange one. He removes my graveyard with Nihil Spellbomb but does not draw anything relevant after. Two 1/1 Mongooses nibble his life total away. G3 I have turn one Delver and keep him off of black mana to avoid being Decayed. He attempts to cast Life from the Loam with Trop and Waste on the field but I counter the Loam 4 turns in a row before Wasting his Tropical Island.
2-0 Death and Taxes: I FoW his Swords, Daze his Flickerwisp and Bolt his Mirran Crusader. Delver and Mongoose have a clear path to victory. G2 feels a bit closer, but after T3 Ponder reveals two Sulfur Elementals and a Rough, I know I can't lose. He concedes to the first Elemental.
1-2 RUG Delver: G1 is a close game but he draws his 3rd Goyf and I'm left without answers. G2 goes the other way around. G3 he wins the Stifle-Wasteland war and I am behind the whole game. He has more Goyfs, more Submerges and more Pyroblasts. A frustrating loss. Is this how it feels to lose against RUG? No wonder some people hate this deck.
2-0 Maverick: T1 Probe gives me perfect information again how to play this one out. He has Swords so I play a Mongoose. I Waste him twice and Forked Bolt his Dryad Arbor and Thalia. He is left with a Shaman and a Forest. I have plenty of Dazes for everything that's about to come. G2 early pressure and double Submerge buy me enough time to win.
3-1-0
In total: 11-2-1
The list feels very solid. I used to run Tarfire in place of Forked Bolt. Tarfire was very good from time to time but it leads to awkward situations against opposing Goyfs, especially when I was running Dismember as well (Goyfs being 5/6). The benefit of Forked Bolt hitting two guys for one is nothing to sneeze at - even at sorcery speed. Probes are very good G1 against an unknown opponent but they usually lose value and get sided out against decks where lifetotal matters. I tested quite a lot with -3 Probe, +1 Forked Bolt, +1 Snare, +1 Chain but this configuration in my opinion lead to too many burn heavy hands where cards were stuck in my hand. Probes help to achieve threshold, dig deeper and provide vital information. I would not cut them after my testing and 3 feels to be the right number of them.
Match up against the new Grixis Delver feels very good for us. All of their guys die to Rough and if you play Probes you know if they are holding Perish, which seems to be the only card that gives us trouble. Even Pyromancer with a couple of tokens is not a problem if you can maintain air dominance.
UWR Delver doesn't feel that bad either even if they are running RiP. Their deck is generally much slower with higher curve and their only solid answer to Mongoose is Batterskull (well, and RiP obviously).
I'm probably going to take RUG to Bazaar of Moxen in November and I would like to hear your opinions on the Shardless BUG match up a little bit more. As it is the only match up where I don't feel confident. What kind of sideboard would you recommend against the deck? Basically only chance to survive is to kill Shamans in sight and hope to choke their mana development.
I am testing SB Misdirection a little bit now. So far finding space to side them in has been difficult. And a couple of times I would have wanted the Misdirection to be an answer instead. Maybe it's too conditional even though bouncing back Hymns, Decays and Visions is great. Opinions?
Lastly to contribute to the ongoing conversations about RR. I haven't tested the card, but the situations given here (Goyfwars and Grizzlebrand) it feels like Submerge and counters are the cards you want to play instead. RR costs 2 mana and it is a huge investment. Plus you need to keep the mana open for it. And we definitely have all the tools to handle Batterskulls already.
This post turned out to be much longer than I expected. Thank you for reading. Hope you enjoyed the reports.
Cheers!
Welcome to the Source :tongue: (I kid, I kid)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mammutti
Out of curiosity, was there any combo of dredge represented in the field? Looks like fair vs. fair in all your matchups.
I can't say much about the Shardless BUG matchup, other than the fact that Spell Pierce + Stifle seems stellar against the deck.
There were at least Reanimator, ANT, Omni Derp, Doomsday and possibly a Belcher (?), but no Dredge. And I guess Aluren could be considered as a combo deck as well. Delver decks seem to occupy the largest portion of the metagame though. I have to say that I enjoy playing those tight Delver mirrors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Plague Sliver
When a creature is phased out, it's treated as though it doesn't exist. Not exactly exiled but effectively exiled.It comes back to the battlefield again at the beginning of its owners untap step. This won't trigger come into play effects and the creature isn't affected by summoning sickness.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt
what intrigues me is the way RR can protect our own clock vs decay, terminus, verdicts, liliana/jtms activations when u have no stifle in hand...Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
RR will never be like F/ice..it can remove permanently remove a target and can gives you a new card...
stifle, grip/grudge,submerges, dismembers, snares, roughs...100% agree theyre better removals vs RR from things we hate...
but then again non of these can save our own creature (except goose)/clock vs uncounterable spells (except of submerging ur own crit when decayed)..
i brought RR to the discussion coz i was looking for a new tool vs hated matchups...jund/bug/DECAY..
RR is what i think, at 1 more cost to cast (we're usually at 1cc)...
is our 5th stifle (hide land from opposing wastes, upkeep ice oppossing land), our 4th submerge, a counterspell vs AD, Verdict, our 7th burn that can deal with huge walls and provides great tricks from EoT to combat phases...