Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
The Maga stuff reminds me of TS-Lor Standard, when people were running Merrow Witsniper as a kill in a heavily combo oriented Reveillark build. Then they realized that wtf, infinite life + infinite bounce + 20-something to the dome a turn is a win. It was a better idea to just be a better Mannequin deck that could randomly wtfpwn people with a combo (and otherwise just show gross disregard for all the basic principles of the game with Lark+Double recursion)
If Abrupt Decay is a concern, btw, infinite Vensers owns it. Bounces the spell to hand from the stack, no countering at all. You can Venser Thrun for example.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zombie
The Maga stuff reminds me of TS-Lor Standard, when people were running Merrow Witsniper as a kill in a heavily combo oriented Reveillark build. Then they realized that wtf, infinite life + infinite bounce + 20-something to the dome a turn is a win. It was a better idea to just be a better Mannequin deck that could randomly wtfpwn people with a combo (and otherwise just show gross disregard for all the basic principles of the game with Lark+Double recursion)
If Abrupt Decay is a concern, btw, infinite Vensers owns it. Bounces the spell to hand from the stack, no countering at all. You can Venser Thrun for example.
I love Reveillark, and you know that you miss those times. Lark + Double + Mannequin was just fun.
And yeah, Venser also owns Supreme Verdict and any/all Miracles cards.
@Kich and Architect -- there's a big post of mine that apparently ended last page. Just FYI so it doesn't get missed.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
To realistically set this up, you need to hit Empath or a Green Sun. You grab Deadeye. Your opponent sits there and thinks. Depending on your board state, he may just kill the Empath on the spot and not give you the chance to pair it up. Smarter opponents will wait until you cast Deadeye, then remove Deadeye in response to the Soulbond trigger. Obviously this can be prevented with smart Therapy usage. Once Deadeye is paired, it becomes almost impossible to deal with short of something like Supreme Verdict, and it's GOING to tutor Palinchron and RSD. That's a given. It's a fair assumption that you're not going to be able to play Deadeye, flicker Empath, then play Palinchron all in the same turn, as that would be 15 mana. So, a more likely scenario is that you pass the turn with Deadeye and Empath up, then on their end step, you flicker to grab Palinchron and RSD, untap and win. This means that the combo is essentially a 2-turn, 1-card combo, which is fairly compact when you get down to it.
What you are describing would take 10 mana to do :/ GSZ for empath (4), cast deadeye (6), flicker empath for palichron (2).
Most of the time they combo will take 3-4 turns to set up.
With 8 lands (which is quiet a bit), the best you can do is this:
1. GSZ empath get deadeye
2. Cast deadeye, eot get palichron
3. Cast palichron and go nuts
With 7 lands its a whole turn slower.
I think the 4 drop you want is Thrun. Or if you have strix, wolfir silver heart might be better. Idk.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
What you are describing would take 10 mana to do :/ GSZ for empath (4), cast deadeye (6), flicker empath for palichron (2).
Most of the time they combo will take 3-4 turns to set up.
With 8 lands (which is quiet a bit), the best you can do is this:
1. GSZ empath get deadeye
2. Cast deadeye, eot get palichron
3. Cast palichron and go nuts
With 7 lands its a whole turn slower.
I think the 4 drop you want is Thrun. Or if you have strix, wolfir silver heart might be better. Idk.
I think the idea here is that the flow of the game would make step 1 a natural event. Like, we can GSZ for dead on 4 mana, by the time we have 6-8 mana (depending on what we're banking and how much we know about their hand) we have them on what is essentially a two turn clock.
Also, despite popular belief, they don't -always- have it. And smart play can purposely -force- their answers to lesser threats prematurely. If they're banking removal for the soulbond trigger, what are they doing about this Thragtusk, or Thrun, or Zegana, and so on? What about the Cabal therapies we have in the yard that we're dumping on them before going off?
The scenarios where we have nothing but a green sun's zenith in hand apparently VS their full grip of answers isn't exactly the norm.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
In scapewish during the late game if you are hellbent and draw into a burning wish or scapeshift, you can just win on the spot. Is there anything similar in this list?
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Star|Scream
In scapewish during the late game if you are hellbent and draw into a burning wish or scapeshift, you can just win on the spot. Is there anything similar in this list?
Best thing I can think of would be late-game drawing a Zenith or a Witness to get back Deadeye and rebuild with whatever from there, depending on the board state and the graveyard state. I guess if you're in the lategame and you haven't used Empath somehow, that would do it, too.
Nothing is ever really going to be able to compare to Scapewish's combo, though, to be fair. That's a literal one-card combo, since it functions off of lands.
The thing to consider when comparing Scapewish and Deadeye is not their respective win conditions, but how they can get to, protect, and interact with their win conditions.
Also, Scapewish's combo is much stronger because it's more of the focus of the deck. Deadeye is more of a value-based deck that has a combo built into it.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I think you guys are a bit blinded by how cool it sounds.
@Arian:
- The main problem of the Panoptic list was not that it was spells instead of creatures. It was having expensive cards that are only good in combination with other expensive cards. The same is true here.
- Deadeye is not good without the Combo. Any 6-drop that needs help or dies to removal without value is not playable. You are likely to win the game if you untap with it but the same is true for Grave Titan or Consecrated Sphinx and these do not need any other creature in play. Palinchron is terrible and Venser is inferior to Jace TMS by miles, these two are like Grizzly Bears and Tarmogoyf.
@kich:
- the list doesn't even have any lesser threats so you can't bait anything
@Starscream:
- no
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
I think you guys are a bit blinded by how cool it sounds.
@Arian:
- The main problem of the Panoptic list was not that it was spells instead of creatures. It was having expensive cards that are only good in combination with other expensive cards. The same is true here.
- Deadeye is not good without the Combo. Any 6-drop that needs help or dies to removal without value is not playable. You are likely to win the game if you untap with it but the same is true for Grave Titan or Consecrated Sphinx and these do not need any other creature in play. Palinchron is terrible and Venser is inferior to Jace TMS by miles, these two are like Grizzly Bears and Tarmogoyf.
Deadeye is fine without the combo, because it combos with everything. Like, if you have ANYTHING else in play, he goes nuts. If you hit 6 mana and you don't have anything else in hand or in play, I'm sorry, you've already lost the game. Just the way it is. Also, Consecrated Sphinx has a high chance of accomplishing exactly nothing. A full 75% of the time when you play Sphinx, it gets Swords'd EoT for no value. I fail to see the difference. I DO agree that Deadeye currently has a problem where it doesn't have enough smaller threats with which to bait out removal spells. Like, by the time Scapewish is dropping Primeval or Rector is slamming Baneslayers and Sun Titan, the opponent should be out of resources.
I also strongly disagree with you on Venser. There's a reason he's a format staple. In a vacuum, I agree that he's inferior to Jace. However, in the same vacuum, Black Lotus is inferior to Jace. You have to consider how they're being used, in conjunction with the rest of the deck.
Say you cut Venser for Jace. Or, I guess that would probably be a bad example since Venser is one of the most degenerate things to pair with Deadeye. Say you take the 3 opens slots that are currently in the main deck, and you make them Jaces. What does that accomplish? What does Jace buy you? He has no synergy with the rest of the deck, at all.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I will say, though, that I do appreciate you being the voice of reason in the wilderness here, Tao. But, at the end of the day, I'm willing to run this thing as a major event -- $30 entry, playsets of duals to the top 8. It's not like I'm planning on jamming this at my local. I'm going to try this. And maybe it'll be terrible, and you can say I told you -- or maybe I'll top 8 with it, and you'll admit that there's something here. Either way, thanks for keeping the thread honest.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
I will say, though, that I do appreciate you being the voice of reason in the wilderness here, Tao. But, at the end of the day, I'm willing to run this thing as a major event -- $30 entry, playsets of duals to the top 8. It's not like I'm planning on jamming this at my local. I'm going to try this. And maybe it'll be terrible, and you can say I told you -- or maybe I'll top 8 with it, and you'll admit that there's something here. Either way, thanks for keeping the thread honest.
I do think that there needs to be some larger more intimidating threats a little earlier on. I'll nuke out a list when I get home from work. I'd like to jam force of will and maybe some more counterspells / discard into the mix. I agree with the mindset that BUG Fit should be better against combo, which means I think it has to be the most disruptive of the three.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
@Arian: Name one advantage this has over Scapewish.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
@Arian: Name one advantage this has over Scapewish.
A winnable combo matchup. I'm fine with losing points against fair decks to be able to beat combo in the meta that's developed locally. It's at least 2/3-3/4 combo here, and Scapewish is strictly unplayable currently because of that fact.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Hmm, in that case I would just play BUG Aggro (maybe RUG). With such an insane amount of Combo they need be punished. A deck with Daze, FoW, Hymn to Tourach, DR Shaman, Liliana and Wasteland (maybe Stifle, too) does a million times better job at that than any Nic Fit version possibly could.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Yeah, but just maybe, some of us hate playing tempo decks, and like playing midrange/control and we try to make the respective deck as fun and strong as possible, rather then jumping off to a completely other deck just because there are some bad matchups ( which can be fixed fairly well) :-)
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viridia
Yeah, but just maybe, some of us hate playing tempo decks, and like playing midrange/control and we try to make the respective deck as fun and strong as possible, rather then jumping off to a completely other deck just because there are some bad matchups ( which can be fixed fairly well) :-)
Pretty much this. I have everything for BUG Delver except the Sinkholes....and everything for UB Stiflenought, which I was heavily considering for the event. But, if I can figure out a way to make Nic Fit work, I will. I've poured an enormous amount of work into this archetype over the past almost two years now, and I don't like the idea of abandoning it just because of something trifling and transient like meta. It's actually in my best interest to do so IMO, because I play a LOT better with Nic Fit than I do with other decks...to the point where even if the meta isn't good for Nic Fit, per se, I actually can injure myself more by playing the "right deck."
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
I think you guys are a bit blinded by how cool it sounds.
@Arian:
- The main problem of the Panoptic list was not that it was spells instead of creatures. It was having expensive cards that are only good in combination with other expensive cards. The same is true here.
- Deadeye is not good without the Combo. Any 6-drop that needs help or dies to removal without value is not playable. You are likely to win the game if you untap with it but the same is true for Grave Titan or Consecrated Sphinx and these do not need any other creature in play. Palinchron is terrible and Venser is inferior to Jace TMS by miles, these two are like Grizzly Bears and Tarmogoyf.
I'm definitely intrigued by these ideas, and have been playing with the (conceptually comparable) Intuition-Rites combo Bug lists from much earlier in this thread as well.
Here's the main issue I have with the Intuition list, in testing, which I think applies to this (and Scapeshift!) as well:
Throwing a combo, even a compact combo full of cards which are reasonable on their own, into any deck needs justification in terms of the metagame, and I'm not sure that having a slow combo element solves anything in these decks.
The paper-rock scissors archetype wheels, though imperfect, can be revealing. I think the most helpful is the aggro<midrange<combo<control<aggro-control<aggro... ordering. Having an alternate win-con is really spicy when it fits on the opposite side of the wheel, as it lets you beat your worst matchups. I sometimes run Aggro-Control (or, if you want, Midrange Control) lists like Zenith Bant, and love fitting Natural Order into the board. Decks like Maverick (which was at its peak when I played a lot of Bant) are very tough, as they have way more/better ways to address my dudes. Aggro-Control loses to Aggro loses to Midrange, and if they can swing Aggro-wards, they can beat me before Jace and Brainstorm can take over the game. Post-board, bringing in Natural Order is almost impossible for Maverick to beat. Combo whoops Midrange.
Here's the point: Nic Fit attacks the meta from a strange midrange/control position which can go way over-the-top of any fair decks. Aggro-Control "Tempo" lists are reduced to (weak) "Aggro" if they lose their mana denial strategy, and get mowed down by fatties. Midrange decks (including Esper, here) are too slow and get board-wiped and then mowed down by fatties. Some one called this "inevitability" earlier, and that's right: Nic Fit has it. This happens to be the same niche in the wheel that combo decks exploit, and consequently, adding this aspect to the deck can produce win infinitely (literaly) where the deck could have won with Primeval Titan and 3/3 beasts just fine. The decks which prey on slow fair strategies will still do so, and Nic Fit combo lists are not fast enough to race them - the control package doesn't add enough, quick enough.
TL;DR/Summary: Very generally, adding combo elements doesn't improve bad matchups, it only provides a different way of attacking the decks which Nic Fit already beats.
That said, I think this sort of list is the best way to do go crazy in a "normal" Nic Fit list. Running Empath, Navigator, and Palinchron is only 3 slots and wins, undisrupted, in almost any circumstance. The amount of card selection available to find Empath, GSZ, or Navigator is substantial, so I won't be running Living Wish. Deadeye Navigator can still take over the game, if not dealt with, which makes him a fine play. Palinchron's "Batterskull Evasion" is also decent. Together, the "I've ramped up and now it's time to do something powerful" slot is stronger than before. *And,* they're blue cards, which synergize exceptionally well with Coiling Oracle and Baleful Strix, to make the count for FoW even more reasonable. Against Storm, boarding out cards like Thragtusk for counters leaves you with a compact, tutorable, top-deckable win condition and more disruption.
I'm going to start with:
22 Lands
4 Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Strix
1 Ooze
2 Witness
1 Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Palinchron
2 Jace
4 Brainstorm
4 GSZ
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Deed
3 Decay
Forces, 2 Venser, 2 Envelop/Mindbreak Trap, Thrun in the board.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Pretty much this. I have everything for BUG Delver except the Sinkholes....and everything for UB Stiflenought, which I was heavily considering for the event. But, if I can figure out a way to make Nic Fit work, I will. I've poured an enormous amount of work into this archetype over the past almost two years now, and I don't like the idea of abandoning it just because of something trifling and transient like meta. It's actually in my best interest to do so IMO, because I play a LOT better with Nic Fit than I do with other decks...to the point where even if the meta isn't good for Nic Fit, per se, I actually can injure myself more by playing the "right deck."
That's why I asked last page about cool things vs. win percentage. You said that the main reason to play this version is the Combo matchup. You play in a very odd meta with over 50% combo. See it this way: if you keep feeding your midrange decks to Combo they will just playing Combo. Give them hell!
Your Nic Fit version has:
- 4 Cabal Therapy
- 2 Venser
- 4 Living Wish
RUG/BUG has
- a much faster clock
- 4 Daze
- 4 Force of Will
- 4 Stifle / Hymn to Tourach
- 4 Spell Pierce / DR Shaman
- a better Sideboard
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
That's why I asked last page about cool things vs. win percentage. You said that the main reason to play this version is the Combo matchup. You play in a very odd meta with over 50% combo. See it this way: if you keep feeding your midrange decks to Combo they will just playing Combo. Give them hell!
Your Nic Fit version has:
- 4 Cabal Therapy
- 2 Venser
- 4 Living Wish
RUG/BUG has
- a much faster clock
- 4 Daze
- 4 Force of Will
- 4 Stifle / Hymn to Tourach
- 4 Spell Pierce / DR Shaman
- a better Sideboard
I think it's more that the goal is to produce a Nic Fit deck that has a pretty good combo matchup. This is my shot at a list including the Deadeye / Palinchron combo:
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Coiling Oracle
1x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
2x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Thragtusk
1x Frost Titan
1x Deadeye Navigator
1x Palinchron
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Negate
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Sensei's Divining Top
-- lands and stuff.
This gives us 4 discard, 8 counters (venser included), 2 Venser's.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I think those last 2 lists are better direction for this deck. The reason scapeshift is good is because its a Jund nic fit deck that does a bunch of stuff thats good and then randomly wins with scapeshift if its at 7 lands. And even if you never see that scapeshift, the lands are still good for other cards. Those last 2 lists are solid BUG lists that have 3 cards devoted to deadeye, so the rest of the deck can still function totally optimal even if there is never an opportunity to combo.
Jace doenst need to synergize with anything. Its a stupidly broken card in any deck that can cast him. And even better in a control deck like nic fit. I dont think he syngergizes in esperblade any more than he would these decks, and hes the last card youd cut from esper. That said, I dont think venser is card to cut for him. I actually think venser is pretty good in this deck.
And as for Tao, you wouldn't be posting here, or playing this archetype, if you honestly wanted play to the one and only deck that you thought had the max win % in a given meta. Legacy players are drawn to archetypes which do things they find interesting and then they do what they can to make them work, and make them good. What's interesting doesn't always win games, but it whats important. It what keeps us passionate about the game. Getting what's interesting to us to win games, is what this legacy is all about.
Deadeye is a cool idea, and Id love to see it refined and be competitive, but I remain doubtful.
Also for scapeshift, I still don't think the combo matchup is that awful though, this is totally anecdotal, but at the last 3 big tourneys (1 juptier/2 mythic) I went to the combo decks I played were as followed:
2 S&T
1 TES
1 ANT
1 Reanimtor
1 Dredge (easy matchup, but I had zero GY that day)
2 GW living wish Elves (not hardcore combo, and easy matchup for scapeshift)
Of those, I lost to ANT and won all the others. And against ANT I totally misread him as some kind of RBW aggro/zombie deck, after he went badlands, pass, BR fetch, therapy, pass, fetch, pass, pass, Tendrils for 20! I had the time and cards to slaughter games his tendrils :/ Game 2 he had turn 1 win, even after a therapy.
The rest of my losses in those tourneys were to Bant, Esper, UW blade, Tubro Eldrazi (Turtle), MUD, and monoblack pox. 4 of which SHOULD be good matchups :/
