All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

If youre relying on a 4-of like SnT or Infernal Tutor or entomb, or other disproportionately powerful cards you want Brainstorm so as not to get sniped out by random Thoughtseizes.

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It's a question nonblue players have needed to ask for forever.

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

If you need a balance of certain pieces, say not-too-many lands for hellbent, or just enough untaps for High Tide, you need a way to adjust the balance. brainstorm-less combo is possible but not as viable unless all your cards are equally proportionately effective (elves)

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Elves needs to balance it's pieces. It's doable with ponder/preordain equivalents, no brainstorm needed. The cards themselves most certainly aren't equally effective.

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

combo decks like storm, reanimator, omni tell etc are held up by brainstorm to filter and protect the various pieces. you COULD try to play without them, but you suddenly start losing a lot of games to preventable circumstances like random topped discard, land flood/screw, etc.

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And other decks don't have to suffer through these? Also not like Brainstorm is the only cantrip in existence, manaflood/screw is easily manageable with Ponder/Preordain.

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

*also, considering elves has a poor matchup against storm and a few other combo decks, and has as many silver-bullet hate cards as storm might face, its likely not the best example for you to start coughing up regarding the topic

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What does the strength of Elves' Storm matchup have to do with it's quality as a deck?

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Originally Posted by [SLAYER]chaos

If blue tempo decks get everything good forever I only think it's fair that Necro gets unbanned.

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Isn't Bargain worse in legacy anyway? In vintage both black engines have been replaced by grizzly because grizzly can be cheated in play more easily and is a win condition in himself already. I'd be curious to See how actually busted they are nowadays

Bargain is vastly inferior to necropotence. Necropotence is a draw 14 for BBB whereas bargain costs infinite especially off of infernal tutor.

If you ban brainstorm cruise is still a gigantic problem. So you don't have BS anymore. Replace with preordain and still keep ancestral recalling yourself with cruise and not having to put the cards back. Treasure cruise is a mistake on the level of skullclamp, SFM, JTMS, etc. etc. it's nuts in every format with fetchlands. It's wrecking face in modern without brainstorm and in vintage where you get that lone brainstorm. Remove brainstorm here but not cruise? Cruise would continue to warp the format around itself still. It is an obscene magic card that shouldn't have seen print but WotC fell off their rocker.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

It's a question nonblue players have needed to ask for forever.

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Nonblue-midrange decks dont have the disparity in card relevance that you get between having SnT/Entomb vs not having SnT/Entomb. Yes, all decks can get thoughtseized, but when a small portion of your deck is very disproportionately more relevant, it stands to reason that without an ability to protect that, the deck becomes much less viable. Thats my point: combo decks without brainstorm become a lot less viable, just like people argue nonblue midrange isnt as viable in the face of cantrip-cores right now. banning brainstorm or not pretty much boils to what decks you think should be in tier 1.5 vs 2.5, especially since delver, the deck everyone points to as the example of why cantrips are bad, would be solved by just axxing delver itself.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Elves needs to balance it's pieces. It's doable with ponder/preordain equivalents, no brainstorm needed. The cards themselves most certainly aren't equally effective.

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ponder/preordain cant get a land out of my hand to get me hellbent, it also cant let me see multiple needed pieces of my combo like if i need Omniscience AND Enter the Infinite. if elves want to see multiple new cards, they have glimpse of nature or just the backup plan of beating people to death if things arent quite balanced to combo, thats the vague sort of "general" effectiveness of on-board synergies that elves has in comparison to other combo decks that ive mentioned

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Originally Posted by Zombie

And other decks don't have to suffer through these? Also not like Brainstorm is the only cantrip in existence, manaflood/screw is easily manageable with Ponder/Preordain.

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i really dont think preordain/ponder fixes a manaflood quite as well as a brainstorm, but i suppose theyre all pretty fair at finding lands

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Originally Posted by Zombie

What does the strength of Elves' Storm matchup have to do with it's quality as a deck?

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because elves was offered up as some example of successful combo with no brainstorm, but in reality it just isnt as fundamentally strong at being a combo deck as a deck like storm, hence the worse matchup; and with glimpse, NO, and GSZ, its not as though elves doesnt have its own strong core of card filtering/fixing.

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

Bargain is vastly inferior to necropotence. Necropotence is a draw 14 for BBB whereas bargain costs infinite especially off of infernal tutor.

If you ban brainstorm cruise is still a gigantic problem. So you don't have BS anymore. Replace with preordain and still keep ancestral recalling yourself with cruise and not having to put the cards back. Treasure cruise is a mistake on the level of skullclamp, SFM, JTMS, etc. etc. it's nuts in every format with fetchlands. It's wrecking face in modern without brainstorm and in vintage where you get that lone brainstorm. Remove brainstorm here but not cruise? Cruise would continue to warp the format around itself still. It is an obscene magic card that shouldn't have seen print but WotC fell off their rocker.

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It's not clear that Treasure Cruise is dominating Modern at this point. It's in the most likely top 8 list in the form of UR Delver, however it's not in the next 4 lists (RDW, UWx Mid-range, Birthing Pod, Twin Exarch. It's not in Affinity or Scapeshift either. It's not in Zoo.

It's in one list that will soon be the #1 target for hate in the Modern meta if things continue as they are. It's not powering multiple lists to dominate over the others.

I think it may be overpowered for the metas it is in play in but at the moment Modern is not clearly displaying that trend. UR Delver is OP at the moment.

Elves wins though blunt force. Tinker, Demonic Tutor, Recall on Steroids, Repeatable recall (At 6 mana) and a land that taps on its own for more mana that any other in the format. You do not need filtering, you just go around it with seeing a massive amount of cards. "Shit I need X, I will just use combat tricks to hold you off while I draw 3 cards a turn till I find it." You just take the most broken things you can, put them together and go to town. But that I am sure is news to no one. Also to say its not a deck with Brainstrom, well you give me Tinker, two flavours of Recall and Academy and I am sure I would not need Brainstorm either.

To say Elves needs to balance it's pieces is like saying to someone you need to learn how to play the deck, every dam deck with more options than "Tap dood, pimp slap guy in face" (Read: every deck in this format) needs to balance its pieces. The comment is silly. As a combo deck also you need to know what your doing, as is the same for any other combo deck. Personally the only thing I can see that Elves loses by not playing Blue is that you can not get away with a 14 card mana base... Oh wait, you can, we did it for years only changing to the 19/20 mana base thanks to the changing of game rules that made running 4 Cradle a thing.

Edit: Oh and DRS helped add to the mana base.

Think Dig Through time and Cruise will get restricted in vintage or Thirst for Knowledge unrestricted.

Seem strange in modern that Ancestral Vision is banned but cruise isnt. Modern doesnt even have the good Cascade cards.

Kinda strange to have more powerful spell legal then the similar banned cards.

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Originally Posted by Rizso

Think Dig Through time and Cruise will get restricted in vintage or Thirst for Knowledge unrestricted.

Seem strange in modern that Ancestral Vision is banned but cruise isnt. Modern doesnt even have the good Cascade cards.

Kinda strange to have more powerful spell legal then the similar banned cards.

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Ancestral Vision has long been thought of as a card that has little business being banned. It's not as much of a joke as Golgari Grave-Troll is, but as I've said Golgari Grave-Troll would do so little in the format that the main reason to want it unbanned is on principle. Ancestral Vision might at least boost some decks that are in need of a power boost.

But yeah, it is rather amusing for Ancestral Vision to be banned, but then for them to print Treasure Cruise, which is much better and goes into more decks (Ancestral Vision is really limited to control decks). If they do decide to ban Treasure Cruise, it'd be nice if they'd unban Ancestral Vision at the same time.

Oh god. I'm totally building modern thirst, cruise, dig deck

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

But yeah, it is rather amusing for Ancestral Vision to be banned, but then for them to print Treasure Cruise, which is much better and goes into more decks (Ancestral Vision is really limited to control decks). If they do decide to ban Treasure Cruise, it'd be nice if they'd unban Ancestral Vision at the same time.

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It was recently stated by somebody of Wizards that stuff like GZS and AV are here to stay on the Modern banned list due to power level.

TC not being banned in the next announcement would be a farce.

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Originally Posted by Barook

It was recently stated by somebody of Wizards that stuff like GZS and AV are here to stay on the Modern banned list due to power level.

TC not being banned in the next announcement would be a farce.

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Their whole B&R management is a farce: Banning combo and control cards from the start, but let Nacatl + Tarmogoyf + BBE + Thoughtseize + Liliana run rampant for years. Keep Black Vise banned but print Delver (for the 3 damage tick in mana denial-strategies). Keep Gush banned because it would be absurd in Tempo but print TC. Keep Bargain banned for power reasons but print Griselbrand which is much easier to cheat on the field. The list goes on and on

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Originally Posted by Barook

It was recently stated by somebody of Wizards that stuff like GZS and AV are here to stay on the Modern banned list due to power level.

TC not being banned in the next announcement would be a farce.

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Who said that about Ancestral Vision and when? If you're talking about the comments mentioned here, he said nothing about Ancestral Vision. He did mention Green Sun's Zenith (alongside Seething Song, Jace, and Stoneforge Mystic) as stuff that have made a grave for themselves concerning Modern, but nothing about Ancestral Vision.

It is comical to see the better Treasure Cruise be legal while Ancestral Vision is banned, but I don't think Ancestral Vision should be banned anyway.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

It is comical to see the better Treasure Cruise be legal while Ancestral Vision is banned, but I don't think Ancestral Vision should be banned anyway.

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I would argue that brainstorm is better than mystical tutor, mind twist, black vise and earthcraft. I find that comical.

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Originally Posted by testing32

I would argue that brainstorm is better than mystical tutor, mind twist, black vise and earthcraft. I find that comical.

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Yes, but brainstorm is a pillar of the format.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Who said that about Ancestral Vision and when? If you're talking about the comments mentioned here, he said nothing about Ancestral Vision. He did mention Green Sun's Zenith (alongside Seething Song, Jace, and Stoneforge Mystic) as stuff that have made a grave for themselves concerning Modern, but nothing about Ancestral Vision.

It is comical to see the better Treasure Cruise be legal while Ancestral Vision is banned, but I don't think Ancestral Vision should be banned anyway.

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If Cruise gets the axe then probly dig will get it as well. The single blue of cruise at least can give the format "diversity" unlike the UU of dig.

Dig is far from broken, why would it get banned?

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Originally Posted by testing32

I would argue that brainstorm is better than mystical tutor, mind twist, black vise and earthcraft. I find that comical.

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Thing is, those aren't really as comparable because they do such different things. Treasure Cruise basically is a better version of Ancestral Vision, which is why the dissonance of Ancestral Vision being banned is especially notable.

Note that I'm not arguing for a ban on Treasure Cruise yet. But if Wizards of the Coast actually thinks Ancestral Vision is so overpowered it needs to be banned (and I don't think it is), it's rather humorous to print what amounts to a better version of it into the format.

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Originally Posted by Star|Scream

Yes, but brainstorm is a pillar of the format.

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What I also find funny is the reaction to TC being "everywhere" and talk of bans when its numbers aren't even close to BS. Also, the commentators for eternal weekend talking about how brainstorm wasn't the best card in delver anymore was pretty humorous.

If powerlevel or color diversity isn't a reason for a ban anymore, I think we should just unban demonic tutor and call that a pillar of the format. I had more fun playing with that card than brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by HSCK

Dig is far from broken, why would it get banned?

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Have you played with it? There is a reason twin have raised a mile above pod and scapeshift have move into a tier1 deck. 2 Mana 2 card demonic tutors for the decks.

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Originally Posted by HSCK

Dig is far from broken, why would it get banned?

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I honestly don't think people have worked out how good it is.

Dig is amazing in control but really, both of those new cards are still nowhere as played as Brainstorm or even Ponder. Calm your tits.

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Originally Posted by Rizso

Have you played with it? There is a reason twin have raised a mile above pod and scapeshift have move into a tier1 deck. 2 Mana 2 card demonic tutors for the decks.

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I have, but isn't this a Legacy discussion?

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Originally Posted by HSCK

I have, but isn't this a Legacy discussion?

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We did talk about it in a modern ot, for legacy I dont think it will be. Cruise might not be axed even.

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Originally Posted by rufus

I honestly don't think people have worked out how good it is.

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It's an instant that gives card advantage and deep dig. How can that not be broken when the realistic cost of casting it for the first time is :1::u::u: delve 5 with 1 mana left open for Daze or going :u::u: delve 6 if you're worried about Spell Pierce?

It's wrecked in a control list that can reliably get the opponent to 1 or 2 cards in hand and then start baiting with :2::u::u: tapouts as early as turn 4 or 5. If you get forced or dazed or whatever it doesn't matter because then they're hellbent and you're control and we all know how that story ends 95% of the time. I'm just surprised it hasn't turned into a 2 or 3 of in Miracles at this point. Yes, it doesn't have full synergy but it is ridiculously powerful in that type of list anyway.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

I'm just surprised it hasn't turned into a 2 or 3 of in Miracles at this point.

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Nobody wants to play 63-cards deck.

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Originally Posted by testing32

I would argue that brainstorm is better than mystical tutor, mind twist, black vise and earthcraft. I find that comical.

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Mind Twist, Black Vise, and Earthcraft I'll give you, but no one thinks those really need to be on the banned list anyways.

Mystical Tutor on the other hand? Crazy Talk.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

It's an instant that gives card advantage and deep dig. How can that not be broken when the realistic cost of casting it for the first time is :1::u::u: delve 5 with 1 mana left open for Daze or going :u::u: delve 6 if you're worried about Spell Pierce?

It's wrecked in a control list that can reliably get the opponent to 1 or 2 cards in hand and then start baiting with :2::u::u: tapouts as early as turn 4 or 5. If you get forced or dazed or whatever it doesn't matter because then they're hellbent and you're control and we all know how that story ends 95% of the time. I'm just surprised it hasn't turned into a 2 or 3 of in Miracles at this point. Yes, it doesn't have full synergy but it is ridiculously powerful in that type of list anyway.

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1) because it's another card beside Jace, Terminus and Entreat you don't want to see in your opener
2) it's cmc is jackshit for Counterbalance
3) The cardadvantage isn't much relevant with CounterTop & Terminus already creating cardadvantage
4) the card selection is pointless with Brainstorm/Ponder/SDT/Fetchlands/Jace already part of the deck.
5) Aside the cantrips, Fetches and Plowshares, the deck mainly runs permanents that don't feed DTT

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Originally Posted by mlschuma

Mystical Tutor on the other hand? Crazy Talk.

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Before mystical tutor was banned it had no where near the penetration that brainstorm does now. It wouldn't see play in delver.

Edit: How many current decks would trade in their brainstorms for mystical tutors? Mystical would be pretty sick with miracles but I'm not even convinced that deck would get better if BS got the axe. You would be left with Jace as your only option to put miracle cards back on top of your deck. I don't think Show and Tell gets better and I'm not even sure that a storm player would want to make that trade.

So, Mystical fits into fewer decks and the decks it does fit into it probably isn't as good as brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

#skillintensive #pillaroftheformat #formatstaple #reducesvariance #goplaymodern #everyonewouldquit #somethingnonsensicalaboutvintage

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Sticky this imo :laugh:

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Originally Posted by testing32

Before mystical tutor was banned it had no where near the penetration that brainstorm does now. It wouldn't see play in delver.

Edit: How many current decks would trade in their brainstorms for mystical tutors? Mystical would be pretty sick with miracles but I'm not even convinced that deck would get better if BS got the axe. You would be left with Jace as your only option to put miracle cards back on top of your deck. I don't think Show and Tell gets better and I'm not even sure that a storm player would want to make that trade.

So, Mystical fits into fewer decks and the decks it does fit into it probably isn't as good as brainstorm.

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Delver? What about jamming 4 Mystical + 1 Treasure Cruise + 1 Temporal Mastery into the deck? TimeWalk and Ancestral Recall on demand without bricking your hand and both flip Delver if placed with mystical tutor on top of your Library.

OmniTell would no longer need to run clunky stuff like Dream Halls because ... hey ... virtual 8 S&Ts!

Storm had with 4 Infernals and 4 Mysticals basically 9 Ad Nauseams and 9 Past in Flames in the deck instead of 5. Land, LED, LED, Gitaxian Probe, respond to Probe with Mystical, respond to Mystical by breaking the Diamonds, YOLO

Mystical Tutor is way too good with all the miracles cards -> Entreat, Terminus, Temporal Mastery, Bonfire ..

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2) it's cmc is jackshit for Counterbalance

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already unlocked achivement - counter opponent TC / with Dig on top :)

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Originally Posted by testing32

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Edit: How many current decks would trade in their brainstorms for mystical tutors? Mystical would be pretty sick with miracles but I'm not even convinced that deck would get better if BS got the axe.

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I would expect that at some critical density, top deck tutors + Temporal Mastery/Reforge the Soul becomes degenerate.

I may have missed something here, but there is Personal Tutor for those, though I don't pretend it is the same thing.

I really wonder where we're heading with basically 4x Ancestral Recall legal in the format. The number of UR Delver decks are constantly rising on MTGO, and so does the number of Brainstorm decks (currently 74.26%).

We are certainly approaching slowly but surely a level where something has to be banned.

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Originally Posted by Barook

I really wonder where we're heading with basically 4x Ancestral Recall legal in the format. The number of UR Delver decks are constantly rising on MTGO, and so does the number of Brainstorm decks (currently 74.26%).

We are certainly approaching slowly but surely a level where something has to be banned.

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On that subject, I am already moaning about the dumbasses who read the runes and say "There are more Brainstorms than Treasure Cruises in the top x of tournmants y and z. Treasure Cruise is not the problem.

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Originally Posted by Finn

I may have missed something here, but there is Personal Tutor for those, though I don't pretend it is the same thing.

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No instant is a big deal i guess. I'm not sure it would be too good, but mystical would be surely played, and played quite a bit. It's no Tax.

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Originally Posted by Barook

I really wonder where we're heading with basically 4x Ancestral Recall legal in the format. The number of UR Delver decks are constantly rising on MTGO, and so does the number of Brainstorm decks (currently 74.26%).

We are certainly approaching slowly but surely a level where something has to be banned.

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Agreed. I hope they ban Treasure Cruise and keep Brainstorm legal.

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Originally Posted by Finn

I may have missed something here, but there is Personal Tutor for those, though I don't pretend it is the same thing.

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There is also Entomb->Noxious Revival.

Super Viable

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Originally Posted by Barook

I really wonder where we're heading with basically 4x Ancestral Recall legal in the format. The number of UR Delver decks are constantly rising on MTGO, and so does the number of Brainstorm decks (currently 74.26%).

We are certainly approaching slowly but surely a level where something has to be banned.

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Is UR Delver going to be on top for long after the meta has adjusted to the fact that it *is* here to stay?

Is it going to be more dominant than RUG Canadian was for awhile?

Both of those things have to be true for WotC to ban something in the next B&R announcement.

The odds are really good that UR Delver isn't even the best list once you take TC and DTT into account. It's just the most obvious one and so people are flooding towards it. If it's getting people to actually buy Volcanics at inflated prices and enter the Legacy meta in the process the store owners will be happy. That's lots of additional sales of various overpriced staples down the road. That's all WotC cares about.

Maybe TC was designed to do exactly that? Put a little cheap thrill out in front of the next generation and see if you can get them to buy $1,000's worth of staples in the process.