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If you want to play uncastable cards, you might as well use an Iona. She's beat by exactly Emrakul. Disciple of the Ring can be Trickbound, plus you need mana open for her, and if you opponent has Wish you just die to Ants.
I would never bring in Disciple against any other deck, so if you're just having it for Omni then Iona is your best bet.
Disciple is an interesting choice. I like that it stops both Emrakul and Spells. Cuttthroat, you would counter the cunning wish or be dead anyways so trickbind or ants are irrelevant. You either have enough mana open to active her ability and counter their important things or your lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
I guess if your meta is infested in Omnitell this could be a good option. I would not play it in any other situation though, and cannonist or meddling mage are better options for most people. I still prefer meddling mage personally since it is the nuts vs lands while still being excellent vs storm, omnitell and lots of rogue combo decks.
Thanks to everyone who posted this trick, it definitely works. I got through a win-and-in vs. Boseiju using just this Canonist + blast technique in my last tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
The other sideboard game I managed to win by resolving a Surgical Extraction on Show and Tell. My opponent wasn't playing, or just hadn't brought in, his Pyromancers, which I was conveniently able to look for in the process of resolving the extraction.
Recently I have noticed that BBD has been doing fairly well with the same miracles list for some time now and Joshua Ravitz has placed 21st at the eternal weekend legacy championship with the same list, and so my question to the thread is how do you guys feel about both of their lists playing zero vendilion cliques? I always thought that playing a minimum of two cliques in the 75 was kind of set in stone but obviously this choice of zero cliques has been working for some people. Also, what do you guys think about the maindeck mentor lists without dazes at eternal weekend?
Well, that question originates from the real question: How much do you value Karakas? Obviously Ravitz and BBD don't value that land too highly, otherwise they would have run it in their 75s. Therefore, when you run zero Karakas, the logical cascading change would be to replace Clique with a different hate-bear and/or what not.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThanhHa
It seems fine to me. I'm down to one clique, and it was not good for me at EW. Meddling Mage and canoeist were all-stars though. You lose some edges in the mirror, but gain some vs Omnitell etc. seems like a reasonable metagame call.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThanhHa
Basically, Ethersworn Canonist functions as vendilion Clique's in their list, putting pressure on while disrupting.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThanhHa
How was the MUD matchup for you at EW if you encountered it at all? I'm kind of curious from both perspectives how MUD vs Miracles plays out and who's favored.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
I currently have 2 Cliques, I'm seriously considering cutting one for a 2nd Canonist and losing the MD Karakas for a 3rd Plains.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
MUD is favored, and I ran into it twice at EW, knocking me out :(.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
If they don't mulligan into oblivion, they have too many things that need immediate answers, and its hard to effectively race them regardless of what creatures you do or don't have. On the other hand, their deck is an inconsistent pile a lot of the time, so if you can stop the first few things sometimes the game is just over.
Do you remember any specifics or details about the MUD matches you played at EW?Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
MUD is a negative matchup, very bad time for us.
Maybe some subotpimal cards like Humily, can help us...but anyway, is a terrible matchup with the actual sideboard cards.
Blood Moon can help us but can only give us a time...and we are not a tempo deck.
In my experience MUD is positive matchup. They have 0 ways to deal with Entreat and Mentor is just as good. You just need to fetch basics and hit your land drops, use counterspell/fow sparingly on correct spells. Postboard you get Disenchant/Wear & Tear which are brutal with Snapcaster Mage.
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Against MUD you must stop:
Steel hellkite
Ugin
Chalice
Trinisphere (to a degree)
Kuldotha Forgemaster
Metalworker
Swords are dead if they resolve Lightning Greaves.
Post sb, you also have to deal with:
All is Dust
Ratchet Bomb
Also, your CB lock Is essentially dead here.
Finally, if you pop 2 fetches, Wurmcoil is a 3 turn clock, so is Sundering Titan without the fetches (not to mention the other effects), and colossus is a win through a block by snap/clique.
If you find MUD to be a good matchup, I have some revised power I would like to sell ya.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
lolQuote:
Originally Posted by dsck
Snapcaster good? With a beautiful trinisphere in game? With 6/8 Sphere effect in his deck? With Chalice @1 you can't cast Tear...anyway..5/6 mana vs MUD is very difficult. He have 25 cards who limit our game man. Imho you don't have play vs a decent MUD player...or you don't have play vs MUD.
Chalice @1 destroy our game. If he play it in the early game we are limited.
We can't play Sensei (4x), Tear (1-2x), Cantrip (8x), Plowshares (4x)...he destroy or limit our Mentor combo with Chalice and Sphere effect.
With Spere effect we can't use Force of Will without mana....
C'mon man...
Edit: ahhh....and when we have a Jace with 13 counters and he Topdeck a Ugin?
Edit x2: ahhhh.....and if he topdeck a Cavern of Souls and play a beautiful and encounterable Sundering Titan or similar monster?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsck
Former MUD player. I say this matchup is about a 60/40 in favor of MUD. Being able to 3 ball relevant spells out of the game is huge, and with how much omnitell is out there right now people are running 4 main right now. Ugin Added a lot of consistency to the deck too especially being able to drop him and instantly stabilize the game and he's terminus proof. Depending on their Manabase as well some variations are running caverns making their metalworkers and uncountable. Hold a counterspell for Ugin when they cast him. He's almost an auto win some games. Not unwinnable. I've lost to Miracles plenty of times when playing MUD, (there's a reason why I'm playing mentor miracles now) but It's a MU I always felt good about going into as the MUD guy.
Imho Ugin is a totally broken card.
If your opponent don't have a castable counterspell in hand you win automatically the game.
Is a wrong card.
Vs one deck who have a lot of activable cards, is semi-impossibile or, simply, wrong play preventive Pithing Needle naming Ugin.
Yeah and like my last game with MUD. Pithing needle naming ugin. Activate Forgemaster, Spine of Ish Sah killing pithing needle. Cast Ugn. GG'sQuote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
Please read Wear // Tear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
I dont believe my opponent can topdeck Ugin easily vs Jace fateseal and if im fatesealing with Jace that means I have some protection in hand. Cavern/Sundering Titan are 1-2 of so im not really worried about them having that combination.
There's 4x FOW in miracles and 12x spells to find them, so stopping that early chalice is not impossible and you have odds to find FOW more often than MUD can find chalice.
MUD does not have 25 spells I care about, really closer to 12 (trini+chalice and ugin/karn+staff of nin+Coercive Portal) if you keep those at bay then all your removal handles their creatures.
My sb plan:
-4x Counterbalance
-2x Pyroblast
+3x Clique
+1x Counterspell
+2x Wear // Tear
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsck
Yeah... Jace dies really fast to like every creature in MUD that's not named metalworker... Again Not saying you can't beat MUD. But It's not a favorable MU.
MUD is not favorable. It's not as lopsided as many believe, but it's not something you want to play multiple times in a tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by dsck
Mud is favored by quite a bit. End of discussion.
No seriously... Im sure everybody who says Mud isnt favored hasnt played the MU or has played against some scrubs.
The MU is winnable because Mud is pretty inconsistent. But given normal draws miracles is a favorite to lose.
There are so many possible problems that can arise:
-you dont have enough lands
-you have duals, you get wasted
-you draw only 1CC spells
-you dont have a clock
-they resolve coercive portal, ugin, staff of nin, sundering titan
-...
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Just saw exquisite firecraft toasted GP Kyoto Champ at SCG Invitational. :) Flew over from Japan to get Burned.
If that card becomes a staple SB cards from red mages (not just burn, but also UR delver), this could lead to problem(s).
. I'd like to know how good daze has been for Mentor Miracles players.
It is certainly easier to resolve an early CB with the help of daze. And CB can protect itself. But daze won't help resolving mentor (the opponent can untap and kill it dazeproof). Theoretically, why is Daze good in this deck (don't answer : because it makes a token :)) ? - I can see power but I don't explain it.
. How does it influence your sideboard plans ?
Daze is generally better on the play. In your sidetables, it should be visible (How do you offset the fact that you generally remove more Dazes on the draw than on the play ?). It's wasn't common for Miracle to have draw/play sb plans - certainly you could remove 1 cb on the draw and not on the play in some MUs.
People are still reluctant to play Daze in Miracle, reluctant to play Mentor Miracles. Don't you think that Mentor Miracles is a better deck right now ?
Mentor Miracles is definitely a very strong deck, but i do think the main reason it did so well in the GP was the surprise factor - no one expected miracles to be packing daze.Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephK
I personally have not tried that build yet, but the main reason holding me back is: Miracles tend to go long, and drawing a daze after turn 4 almost feels like a dead draw.
Well, drawing your maindeck Pyroblasts against any non-blue matchup is equally painful, but well, you have SDT, Jace, Ponder and Brainstorm to somehow not draw it and/or fixing it into something useful. Another benefit I see from running Daze is it being a CC2 spell as the CC2 slot is usually quite thin when it comes to Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by KZhang
On a sidenote, I stuck to the classic list yesterday and took it to a 4-1 finish in a field with 30 ppl:
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
1 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Counterbalance
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
// Sideboard:
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster
SB: 2 Monastery Mentor
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
R1: Esperblade, 2-0 (g1 kill with Jace, g2 kill with double-Mentor)
R2: Grixis Midrange 0-2 (insane nutdraw)
R3: Shardless BUG 2-0 (won both games on the back of Entreat the Angels)
R4: Grixis Control 2-1 (managed to lock him with CBalance in g2 and 3)
R5: Merfolk 2-1 (lost the first, but postboard I have so many spotremoval and Mentor, it was easy from there)
I was lucky that I played blue decks all day, destroying a Jace for a red mana felt evil. And REBs together with Snapcaster is nuts against Merfolk. I boarded in Mentor quite frequently, so maybe it's worth running him in the maindeck, but on the other hand you need setup. He really isn't that great with an empty hand. With Entreat, you only need mana. But I have yet to learn a lot about this deck, but it played out very smoothly. It plays a lot of good cards :D
That's incorrect. First of all, there're Dazes in Mentor Miracles for both GP Kyoto AND GP Lille. That's not some random coincidences. People make conscious decisions on that card.Quote:
Originally Posted by KZhang
Second, does Mentor Miracles tend to go long? Are you sure? Mentor demands opponent to answer.
Third, and as as follow up to the second point, let's watch this Mentor Miracles match: http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/v/13395269?t=1h16m10s
As you can see, Yim was hyper-aggressive, which shortened the 2nd game A Lot. However, he still lost the 3rd game, which made me still suspicious about this "aggro-control" style as people put it. You're barely in control of anything. If this kind of style would work, Yim should have come out victorious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Before Claudio's win - look back at the discussion pages. How many people brought up daze as an option. Just because it was in a couple of decklists did not mean that people were expecting it.
Just like before GPT Kyoto, not many people would have expected Wastelands in Miracles.
Finally 1 data point does not = fact. Just because he didn't win the game does not mean this play style is bad.
Has anyone else been testing Jace, Vryn's Prodigy? I tried out replacing one Snapcaster with one Jace, VP in my list (heavily modeled on Schonegger's GP Lille list) for a local 1K on Saturday and he was fairly impressive. His +1 was surprisingly useful for both stabilizing in some awkward lategames as well as tempting opponents to overextend somewhat into terminus. The rest of the card did a fairly decent Snapcaster impersonation, with his vulnerability to removal only really mattering in G1s. Curious to see if anyone else has had success with the card.
I'm thinking about running this for my 75. There is a lot of mentors, Pyromancers, and fish running around. Thoughts?
Creatures (3)
3 Snapcaster Mage
Spells (37)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
2 Dig Through Time
1 Council's Judgment
Lands (20)
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
Sideboard (15)
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Moat
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Rest in Peace
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Wear // Tear
Your MD 60 is just BBD's list with -1 land +1 Counterspell. Since BBD is not running Clique SB, would you care to justify you having it over BBD's list's Meddling Mage? Also, If Mentor and Merfolks are running around, Supreme Verdict should be on your radar. If you are seriously concerned about Merfolks, you should have multiple needles, naming Vial or Mutavault, replacing Keranos and Moat.Quote:
Originally Posted by raistlinim
Yesterday i reached another Top8, we were 125 players, but i lost in the semifinal so i finished 3hrd. :smile:
Anyway i think that the deck still very good, and i don't see any reason for why we should cut Daze for something else, for all that say "after some turns become useless" i would suggest to try well the deck before speak about it :tongue:
ps: Chi Hoi Yim lost when he resolved the wrong BS. He should put on top Swords and Mentor, instead Mesa+Mentor http:/http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/v...269?t=1h16m10s
Hello B88 :)
Do you have a theoretical point of view about Daze in mentor Miracles ? (or how do you play the deck so that Daze shines ?) Could you elaborate more on how you sideboard Daze (draw play) in Tempo / Miracle - MUs and why ?
By the way, I believe that Chi hoi Him had probes instead of Dazes in the Maindeck (but not quite sure about it)
Hello members of the source! Hey Claudio! (B88) I've tried all builds of miracles for the past 4 years, been playing the deck on and off, but not traveling much to events, since I was still in college. I've been bouncing back and forth playing BBD's list from the past few weeks and mentor miracles. I'm a big fan of Daze in the deck, and, like Claudio has mentioned, please actually play with the deck before writing it off, it's not standard miracles, it's far more tempo oriented. I would rather play mentor version in a field with few other miracles players though, as, instead of this "mirror" operating like the mirror normally would, the white cards are actually good against mentor, etc. That being said, I believe I'll be playing between the two versions up to and including GP Columbus next year, seeing what I prefer more.
My main deck has been the same since the beginning of the year. (I believe I posted about it before going down to 20 Lands) I'll be playing at the Legacy IQ at Cincy and I have played against merfolk steadily for about 6 months. Verdict can be recovered from where Moat ends there game. I'm not saying its the best but I'm curious abort everyones thoughts about it. For me Moat can't be reb-ed and answers all the big delve creatures, token generators, and buys us time in ALOT of matches. Meddling Mage is great for combo but I'm not having any issues with combo decks. Should I go back to 21 lands? Are my thoughts on Moat invalid?
Needles don't help when everyone is running Caverns nowadays. They also don't prevent you from losing life in the interim. Moat is one of the best answers to Merfolk as if you can get it to stick, it's effectively an auto-win against Merfolk. Moat is also great against Delver decks and MUD, the former having very few ways to removing/circumventing it (make the insect eat a Swords).Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
On the subject of Mentor, I don't believe the deck works as optimally without Daze. Daze gives you the ability to tap out and immediately get value out of Mentor without having to FoW something. In "pure" control variants (aka Ponder and no Daze), he can come down earlier than Entreat, sure, but he's not as impactful. If the answer to this is to play him later in the game when you can cast spells after he resolves, then just play Entreat since you'll have the mana anyway.
Recently, I've been playing Mentor builds with both Daze and without Daze. And while I definitely didn't get in enough games to talk about optimality, they just played very differently to me. Personally, I prefer no Dazes and more removal. I also believe that if you cut the Dazes, then you want less than four Mentors.
I like having the Mentors main largely because they impact board earlier than EtA, and allow you to switch gears in matchups that either can't kill you quickly and/or are light on removal. But I also prefer a more controlling style, and I found that the Dazes don't lend them self to this as well as more Terminus, StP, and Snapcaster.
I'm still trying out various builds of the deck in preparation for a larger tournament toward the end of the month (pays out in blue Revised duals). I'm open to just about any build right now; I even tried a Dack Fayden in the deck -- it's been great against Mox Diamond decks, but looks silly against Null Rod/Pithing Needle.