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Wizards doesn't give a shit about what price one buys his Volcanics. They want to sell current product.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
One of the current trends to counter UR Delver is playing UWR Delver, because you can still run TC, more removal and SFM which gives UR Delver alot of trouble.
But in the end, all you do is switching a few cards to end up with the same core.
WotC really wants to keep the store owners happy. They want to keep the online superstores happy. If this wasn't the case we'd have no reserve list, regardless of what WotC had said in the past on the subject. You want to know who the "big collectors" who spoke up for the reserve list idea were when WotC was trying to figure out if breaking the old promise was a good idea or not? They were mostly LLC's and corporations who do a lot of business in the eternal collectible market and who also not coincidentally do a lot of current business with and for WotC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Didn't Ben say that SCG was in favor of removing the reserve list when asked by Wizards a few years ago?Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Maybe, maybe not.Quote:
Originally Posted by davelin
He could also be lying since we have no way to tell that he's actually telling us the truth.
Fact is that they make tons of money with Legacy.
I would gladly trade brainstorm for mystical tutor in storm, reanimator, and show and tell. Sure brainstorm is great but mystical tutor is vampiric tutor/completely broken. You weren't getting turn 2 kills in legacy mystical ANT via brainstorm it was all mystical tutor end of turn 1 for ad nauseam or infernal tutor, dump your hand into said card, win. Mystical tutor is obscene as it is actually dark ritual, demonic tutor, yawgmoth's bargain, or a protection spell all at the low cost of minus 1 card in hand and a blue mana. That kind of flexibility is unrivaled in legacy currently. Mystical tutor is never getting unbanned. Compare it to land tax? The power level difference between land tax and mystical tutor is enormous. They are different cards sure but land tax is unplayable in eternal hell I would argue that it would be fine in modern. Mystical is just flatout busted though.
Yes, he was in favor of it. His arguments are (were) very solid. In an already fluctuating market, with the non-reserve list reprints or power creep replacements of older cards, it wouldn't really affect the secondary businesses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Except stores, especially the big ones, are really the ones least affected by a Reserved List retraction. Cards lose value, but their assets are fairly liquid so they're hurt less. As someone explained to me, all they really have to do drop down the buying price while also lowering the selling price and they're surprisingly unaffected by price drops. Buy a card at $40, sell a card at $80, buy a card at $39, sell a card at $79, buy a card at $38, sell a card at $78, and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Not to mention that all those stores still get affected by reprints of non-Reserved List cards in the same way as they'd do with actual Reserved List cards. If they'd lose money if the dual lands all got reprinted, they're still losing that money thanks to the fetchlands and shocklands getting reprinted. Unless they're a store that's actually only selling Reserved List cards, in which case they're probably not much of a store.
The people who would be actually threatened by the removal of the Reserved List aren't stores, and certainly aren't the "online superstores". They're the speculators who buy a bunch of copies of a card and sit on them hoping for a price spike. The Reserved List makes such speculations significantly safer; you know you can stock up on Tundras without fear of a reprint, but something like a Liliana of the Veil is much more dangerous due to the possibility of a reprint.
The amount of product that would move if ABUR dual lands were reprinted in, say, a fall block would be enormous. For you to lose money as a store when you're selling every pack you get in insanely fast would take tons of dual lands/actual thousands as the amount of product you would move would be absolutely insane numbers wise. Not to mention there's no evidence that revised and unlimited duals would drop much. Revised yes I can see a drop. Unlimited taiga is just as hard to find as unlimited black lotus/fairly scarce. FBB's would maintain value in all likelihood. Alpha and beta would go up in value no doubt about it. All of this is a moot point as the list is staying as much as it sucks.
*not calling you out, just quoting for contextQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
when the company is hurting for money their "values" will get compromised and the reserve list will go away. Business is 1 sided...the best interest of the shareholders. so when the time comes where abolishing the list outweighs keeping it there will be no question about whether or not it stays. The only question that remains is when that time will come?
That is just stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Brainstorm is far closer to an actual ancestral recall than Treasure Cruise is.
Brainstorm is the by far stronger card. Treasure Cruise is not banworthy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
The read it again... how is it possible you do not know what are you talking about?.. Storm is the best BS deck but would be far from being the best Mystical Deck... do your homeworks and build it, or build a current AnT with Mystical tutor, legacy is much different than in 2010 and current for of Ant superior to that of 2010, you would not even play 4 Mysticals if it was unbanned
damn I really should not open this thread
So with the release of Commander 2014, will there be an update on the B&R list for Legacy/Vintage the monday after? I wasn't able to find the next date while searching the new WotC site.
I was about to explain how the format was reasonably diverse and balanced before Treasure Cruise was printed and became dominated by Miracles and Delver - mainly U/R - after that, which does suggest that Treasure Cruise may the problem card, and that banning it might lead to a diverse metagame again. And that drawing 3 really is much better than drawing 3 then putting back 2. But the quoted statement struck me as so funny that I will just say:Quote:
Originally Posted by Quizzlemanizzle
Only if you aren't playing on camera.
I've said for a few years now that the failure of Standard will be the redemption of Legacy and Vintage. Fight the good fight and convert kids over from Standard and eventually we will have our reprints. The question is, to me, not if this happens, but, do they essentially kill the game trying not to do it. This is, however, the wrong thread to discuss these kinds of things though.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
HilariousQuote:
Originally Posted by DLifshitz
Edit: I think the problem here is that you and I have different definitions of diverse. When I see a top 8 like this:
BUG Delver
RUG Delver
Miracles
Miracles
Reanimator
Deathblade
Shardless
Elves
I don't think "What a diverse meta". I think "Holy crap, 7/8 decks share 8 of the exact cards".
Edit 2:
One more thought on the mystical tutor topic. I could be wrong and enough people seem to disagree to think that.
I think you guys are glossing over how large of a loss BS would be. Delver would flood out. Show and tell would have multiple business spells with no fatty and no way to put them back. The magic Christmas land miracle decks would have no way to put 5/6/7 mana spells back into their deck.
And mystical was legal with BS in storm for a long time and by most accounts the ban was unwarranted. The only thing that has changed since then is probe and past in flames.
Yes, but of these 7, 2 are tempo, 2 are control, 1 is combo and 2 are dissimilar midrange decks. Playing in such a metagame would reward experience, knowledge of the format, and good play, rather than just picking the "best" deck. It shouldn't be monotonous. And on average the metagame was actually less homogeneous and blue-heavy than that, see the top-8/16 metagame breakdown at tcdecks:Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
http://tcdecks.net/metagame.php?form...y&fecha=2014-9
I mean, of course it would be nice if the metagame would be less blue-centric, but I don't see it as the biggest problem right now.
The printing of Gitaxian Probe was huge in terms of how the card would interact with Mystical Tutor. For a blue mana and 2 lifepoints you have a Demonic Tutor and the interaction also works with Past in Flames in the exact same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
ahahahhahaQuote:
Originally Posted by DLifshitz
The diversity of the format is unchanged since Treasure Cruise. It has not changed the slightest.
Look, ALL of them are playing lands. That's not very diverse, is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
How is that even relevant when you have several completly different strategies present? It's like looking at a game of football and saying that the game is boring because all of them are playing with with a striker.
Diversity is not about the cards you see, why would it be? Diversity is about how much your mind is challenged.
Yeah, "blue tempo decks are really fucking good" is not exactly a new thing in this format.
Beyond that, "decks that play brainstorm are overwhelmingly favored to win stuff" is also not exactly new.
Too bad that Alex B. will miss the era of running up to 8 draw-4-for-U...Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
I fundamentally disagree that diversity isn't about the cards you see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
When they decided to ban mental misstep color diversity was important. Now it doesn't seem to matter.
Having a meta where the choices are basically Death and Taxes, Elves or Brainstorm isn't healthy imo.
"Unfortunately, it turned out poorly. Looking at high-level tournaments, instead of results having blue and nonblue decks playing Mental Misstep, there are more blue decks than ever. The DCI is banning Mental Misstep, with the hopes of restoring the more diverse metagame that existed prior to the printing of Mental Misstep."
Drawing 3 is definitely better than drawing 3 and putting back 2 (the only possible exceptions really being if you really want a Delver to flip or want to set up a Miracle), but there's more to the cards than that. Brainstorm is an Instant, which gives it considerable added flexibility as well as letting you hide cards from discard. It also has far fewer restrictions on when it can be cast, allowing it to be played in more decks and is affected by less hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by DLifshitz
There's a reason Brainstorm is considered better than Ancestral Vision. Admittedly, Treasure Cruise is better than Ancestral Vision, but there's more to the comparison than just drawing 3 cards vs. drawing 3 and putting back 2.
Yeah, but if they ban brainstorm soooo many people will leave the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
This is the kind of idea that seems great ("if Standard fails, they'll support Legacy more and reprint cards!") but doesn't consider how Legacy would have to change as a result.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Standard's rotation helps with something majorly: It avoids power creep. Okay, there's still been some of that, but it hasn't been that large, and in fact there's been some powering down of some elements. This benefits Legacy, because it means that the format manages to have some relative stability.
This all changes if Standard fails and Legacy becomes the new major format (though they'd more likely just switch over to Modern as the major one). Then Magic has to adopt a model more similar to Yu-Gi-Oh to ensure product is being sold.
I haven't played Yu-Gi-Oh, but I've talked to some players about it. Yu-Gi-Oh, for those not in the know, has really just one format that doesn't rotate. So Konami has to come up with ways to ensure their products are constantly selling. There are two methods to ensure this: Power creep and bannings. Power creep is self-explanatory; you constantly ratchet up the power of cards so people have to keep getting the new ones to remain competitive. Bannings are the other. While indeed some cards are banned for legitimate reasons (being actually too good), sometimes the true reasons seem to be less savory. Decks using older cards are outperforming your newer ones? Ban those old cards and force players to get the new cards, then eventually unban them when they're no longer as good. These basically achieve the effects of Standard rotation in that it devalues older cards while constantly forcing you to get the newer ones without having to do Standard rotation.
So basically, the death of Standard might mean they'd rescind the Reserved List, reprint the staples, and push Legacy. It'd also mean Legacy would transform into something considerably different than it is because of the above notes. A lot of Legacy players mock Standard, but fact is Standard is required to make Legacy into the format you like by maintaining a reasonably standard power level.
Also, something regarding reprints: I'm not necessarily sure if this is a consequence of their "cards don't rotate" system or has a different reason behind it, but Yu-Gi-Oh is also huge on reprints. This seems great--hey, the cards are cheaper now!--but the way they go about it is far more dramatic than anything Wizards of the Coast has done, even in reprints for expensive stuff like the fetchlands. Let's take an example. Evilswarm Exciton Knight was an extremely in-demand card from the Legacy of the Valiant set, which was released on January 24. Its price was something like $80. Then, 8 months later in August, it got a reprint and its price is now something like $25. And from what I hear about the way they've handled these things in the past, it's likely to get another reprint to crash it further.
There might be a few guys upgrading their pools to vintage, but most players will stay at legacy. Overall the card pool stays the same, but the formats speed will drop a whole turn and will spawn new and interesting decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Awesome non-sequitur is awesome. Mise well just use "look, they have spells".Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
If standard dies the whole game goes with it. Quit day dreaming already. Cards don't get banned anymore.
This is true, of course - but there's also less need to cast TC in response to something (I mean, if it were possible) than Brainstorm. Brainstorm mostly gives you card selection, so it's advantageous to keep your options open for as long as possible. With TC, you get all 3 cards anyway, so there's no incentive to wait. The flexibility of an instant just isn't needed as much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
TC (and Ancestral) are just totally different animals from Brainstorm...
Anyone know offhand when the next banned list update is?
Yep, it's written on the last ban list following the guidelines set out from now on. The week after the next Prerelease.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cox
So it should be mid january, no?
I expect no changes for legacy/vintage though.
Google "next mtg ban announcement" and click the third link down the page.
"Open wide, here comes the aeroplane."
Thanks,
Tl/Dr;
Jan 19
Expect Legacy: No Changes.
Of course, they have ignored the problem for years now.Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
WotC could really learn something from Hearthstone when it comes to balance and nurturing a format.
Aaron Forsythe has apparently stated they're discussing the bans of Treasure Cruise for legacy and Jeskay Ascendancy for modern @Pax Australia.
It's not decided yet though.
He also reiterated that they usually don't playtest for eternal.
Any word on whether this will happen before GP NJ or GP Madrid, respectively?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylphnir
Thank you.
Greetings
They want to wait how it pans out so it might not happen before Dragons of Tarkir if ever. (third set of the khans block)
Changes for this year are rather unlikely.
Jesus christ no. No. If they seriously ban TC i'm out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylphnir