Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by klaus

This confuses me quite a bit and I don't know where to start to explain that this is a fundamentally wrong assumption.
I've been playing RUG myself and doing OK at local tourneys. Dazing on turn 1 is nice to protect your stuff, but it DOES take away a lot of tempo. Not being able to Pierce/Ponder/BS/Stifle etc. AND drop a threat on turn 2 is a major downside.

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Not if you just got to Hymn to Tourach your opponent. You don't need to drop a threat on turn2 if you happened to have an opponent who felt like discarding two cards just to try getting rid of your Delver, while being okay with it being Dazed. Just the assumption of it being okay if its being dazed baffles me on several levels. On turn two you can then decide whether to keep Pierce/Snare up or Cantrip. It's just as good as ever.

If you think that aggressively fighting over Delver on fucking turn 1 is a patience-play you might want to re-think this way of playing.

Greetings

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Originally Posted by klaus

This confuses me quite a bit and I don't know where to start to explain that this is a fundamentally wrong assumption.
I've been playing RUG myself and doing OK at local tourneys. Dazing on turn 1 is nice to protect your stuff, but it DOES take away a lot of tempo. Not being able to Pierce/Ponder/BS/Stifle etc. AND drop a threat on turn 2 is a major downside.

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RUG is designed specifically to allow the entire deck to operate on 1-2 mana. Dazing will not set them back.

I tried for a few minutes to come up with scenarios where I Force the turn 1 Delver, but I really can only come up with:

"My opening hand has 3x Force of Will in it"

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

"FoW their T1 Delvers under any circumstances, unless you're holding double STP"

Care to elaborate, lol? I havn't ever done this once in all my time with playing Miracles. Plus I think that it's an outstandingly bad play.

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I am 100% on board with this. Forcing a t1 Delver is something I would almost never do. My preferred use of Force of Will against RUG Delver is to shuffle it away.

Honestly, I board out Forces against RUG. I aim for redundancy in that matchup and generally I don't think the tempo of force really justifies the card disadvantage in that matchup. They run so many weak cards as the game goes on that it tends to be pretty easy to come ahead in that matchup.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

Honestly, I board out Forces against RUG. I aim for redundancy in that matchup and generally I don't think the tempo of force really justifies the card disadvantage in that matchup. They run so many weak cards as the game goes on that it tends to be pretty easy to come ahead in that matchup.

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I agree with the first sentence, not the last. If you don't play around Wasteland, Stifle, and Daze, there won't be a game to go on. There's an approach to go about it in this Match-Up, you can watch that Miracle stream from like... 8 months ago. In general, the idea is trying to just play land-go early game. There're many, many reasons as to why you should not cast any spells and/or break any fetches until you have some lands in play.

In this match-up, a streamer mentioned it once the best: you can have 4 lands (may or may not produce Mana) in one turn, and then have 2 lands or no lands in a later turn.

I'm not Forcing anything turn one vs RUG. That seems awful. I just want to make land drops and maybe put a top on the board until about turn 4. If I get an opportunity to kill a threat without playing into Daze / Pierce, I'll take it but the main plan is to just develop my mana.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

I agree with the first sentence, not the last. If you don't play around Wasteland, Stifle, and Daze, there won't be a game to go on. There's an approach to go about it in this Match-Up, you can watch that Miracle stream from like... 8 months ago. In general, the idea is trying to just play land-go early game. There're many, many reasons as to why you should not cast any spells and/or break any fetches until you have some lands in play.

In this match-up, a streamer mentioned it once the best: you can have 4 lands (may or may not produce Mana) in one turn, and then have 2 lands or no lands in a later turn.

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So what you're saying is that it 's hard if you play badly? Okay, sure. So it's an easy MU.

Ima Force their T1 Brainstorm woop woop, y'all!

I'm sticking with just Forcing Stifles in G1. It's a good use of keeping your Land in play when you're most vulnerable to it, or just have dead cards on top and want the shuffle, and sometimes it's good against a really late Goyf/Goose when you're out of stuff to do and aren't sure you can deal with it, nor take 8. Either way they come out.

Also; if they Daze a T1 Force then we have to have a follow up StP with White. If not they keep their Delver and just Pierce us out of the game very rapidly as we sit there with next to no cards in hand. T1 Delver is a ballache, and Forcing it isn't the worst thing you can do, but you damn sure need to have something good to do to dig your way to not losing the game.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

I agree with the first sentence, not the last. If you don't play around Wasteland, Stifle, and Daze, there won't be a game to go on. There's an approach to go about it in this Match-Up, you can watch that Miracle stream from like... 8 months ago. In general, the idea is trying to just play land-go early game. There're many, many reasons as to why you should not cast any spells and/or break any fetches until you have some lands in play.

In this match-up, a streamer mentioned it once the best: you can have 4 lands (may or may not produce Mana) in one turn, and then have 2 lands or no lands in a later turn.

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Thanks for the tips guys. Any idea where I can find this vid stream you are talking about?

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

I'm sticking with just Forcing Stifles in G1.

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Yeah, pretty much this actually. I can only think of three times I'd FoW against RUG: To stop a critical Stifle, to resolve my only Counterbalance, or to FoW back if they've decided that something is important enough for them to FoW first. Not only should you not be casting FoW on t1, but you probably should not be casting anything until t3 (unless they tap out and you can play around Daze or something). RUG playing a t1 Delver, having you FoW it, and them Dazing you not only doesn't set them back at all but is probably the best thing that could have possibly happened to them that whole day. They will happily replay that Volcanic Island and hold up Spell Pierce for the rest of the game. Not to beat a dead horse, but it's basically up there with Misdirecting a Hymn to Tourach in terms of blowout potential.

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Originally Posted by mike1987

Thanks for the tips guys. Any idea where I can find this vid stream you are talking about?

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If you search back in the thread (maybe like a dozen or two dozen pages..?) you'll find a big chunk where people are discussing the RUG matchup.

http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79 is the steam.

meh I lose :laugh:
thanks for the extensive feedback on my wrong assumption.

I could definitely justify forcing a delver if I am on the play and can therefor pay for a daze on their turn. I would have to have a really slow hand, with no StpS and another really bad blue card (like another force) though. Force easily the worst card in our deck against RUG so if I drew 2 of them G1 in an otherwise good hand, I wouldn't mind 2 for 1ing myself to counter a delver and buy myself a lot of time.

honestly against RUG, since they can't remove enchantments at all, I prefer to be sure to resolve a RiP and watch them bet anything on Delver.

Counterbalance helps too.. (Snare, Pierce, Bolt are all cold to CB), FoW.. is not so usefull

Using FoW to protect your key spells that can ruin their deck seems like the best use for it, be it RiP, Counterbalance, or an Entreat.

Playing with this deck this evening in my second event with Miracles. I was previously on Esper Deathblade and had played that deck to moderate success a couple years ago when I was playing Legacy heavily. I took a break and am now making a return to this amazing format.

When I saw the Miracles deck at Grand Prix Paris, I fell in love. Haven't looked back since.

I really like the main deck a lot. I only miss having main deck Pyroblasts and Red Elemental Blasts in mirror matches (I'm on Spell Pierce otherwise). The Ponder - despite oarsman's disapproval as noted during his stream - I've come to value having, making the deck more consistent. I do agree with his assesment though; that having Ponder encourages you to want to play one turn one, opening you against an unknown opponent to potential trouble. However, the same can be argued regarding Sensei's Top, too. However, so long as you don't let yourself fall into the trap of just jamming a Ponder as soon as you see one, I think the card is fine and not only helps make the deck more consistent, but gives the Snapcaster Mage's more to eat.

Primarily being a Standard player though, it's hard for me not to add more land. But, I understand why not to. lol.

I suppose the most trouble I have with this deck is what to select for a sideboard and subsequently, how to sideboard. My local metagame features a couple Delver decks, Death & Taxes, a UW old-school control deck, some storm decks, and occasionally a Reanimater deck. This is my current sideboard. All help appreciated.

Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Swan Song
1 Terminus (or Supreme Verdict)
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Rest in Peace (should I play three?)
1 Wear//Tear (Disenchant?)
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Engineered Explosives (been pretty happy with these - brought in against Storm and blew up all his artifact mana)
1 Grafdigger's Cage (third RiP?)

Is there any argument for having an Oblivion Ring (can't be blasted) or Detention Sphere?

Do you leave Supreme Verdict in the deck in mirror matches to increase odds of countering an opposing Jace with Counterbalance?

Is the Stoneforge Mystic-into-Batterskull plan worth while?

Thanks all! Glad to be playing Legacy again. Quickly becoming my favorite format.

Keep the 2 Rip/1 Cage. Cage is such a good card that does a little more than RiP, but also allows you to just drop it earlier and beat out various things like Reanimator on the draw with the nuts. It's also really good to have against Dredge. Because it's Dredge and fuck Dredge.

I prefer Disenchant, but it depends on your mana-base and what you're doing. I don't expect to Fuse it too often, and Disenchant casts from Basics much easier. (I play a Mountain, but whatever.) In my total deck I have access to 4 StP, 4 Terminus, 2 Verdict, and a Pyroclasm. I would cut one Wrath at most, but with the meta like it currently is I want to beat up True-Names, and 1-mana Wraths dodge Tax effects, and Verdict dodges everything. I have played 3 StP main and 1 board, and have also played 4 StP with a Path in the board. Generally, I think Verdict is way too good to pass up, so definitely ensure you have one. I'm not keen on double Engi, but that's you. I also never leave home without a Pithing Needle. Best sideboard card ever printed

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Originally Posted by DalamarTheDark

I suppose the most trouble I have with this deck is what to select for a sideboard and subsequently, how to sideboard. My local metagame features a couple Delver decks, Death & Taxes, a UW old-school control deck, some storm decks, and occasionally a Reanimater deck. This is my current sideboard. All help appreciated.

Is there any argument for having an Oblivion Ring (can't be blasted) or Detention Sphere?

Do you leave Supreme Verdict in the deck in mirror matches to increase odds of countering an opposing Jace with Counterbalance?

Is the Stoneforge Mystic-into-Batterskull plan worth while?

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In general, the lesser fair decks in your local, the better oarsman's version becomes.

No reason to run an O-Ring/DS if you don't run Enlightened Tutor.

If you feel the need to use SFM package in SB games, perhaps you should just play Ein's list.

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Originally Posted by DalamarTheDark

Do you leave Supreme Verdict in the deck in mirror matches to increase odds of countering an opposing Jace with Counterbalance?

Is the Stoneforge Mystic-into-Batterskull plan worth while?

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I usually cut all Terminus and have 2 Supreme Veridcts post-board in the mirror. Helps deal with Angels and having more 4cmc is nice.

I haven't tried the SFM SB, but I briefly tried SFM MD. It is good in some places, but it felt pretty unnecessary overall.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I usually cut all Terminus and have 2 Supreme Veridcts post-board in the mirror. Helps deal with Angels and having more 4cmc is nice.

I haven't tried the SFM SB, but I briefly tried SFM MD. It is good in some places, but it felt pretty unnecessary overall.

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Why have I never tried this? Upping to 5 4-drops is quite good, and having outs to the various things we don'y want to see will always be good.

Also I despised the Stoneblade experiment. Tutor for a Batterskull to counter a Force? Deal. Everything else was crap.

I play a D-Sphere in my sideboard. It's a good catch all answer, as we can struggle against all manner of things, from 'Walkers, to Sylvan Library, to killing a bunch of Angel tokens. It helps to fight against the better draws of other decks without having to lean so heavily on Counterbalance or Force of Will. It's also good against Show and Tell decks. I kind of really liked it in my main deck, and may port it back in over the 4th Ponder.

Bringing in Supreme Verdict simply to counter Jace via Balance and deal with Angels is wrong.

Firstly, bringing in cards simply to reveal them with Counterbalance without them having a good use in the MU is wrong. Supreme Verdict has no use in the mirror, so bringing it in is wrong. Make sure to resolve a Counterbalance, and don't worry about what you could reveal once you got that Balance. That's a totally wrong approach.

Secondly it is wrong to bring in cards against Angels. You don't keep Terminus in either, and yes, Verdict has some upsides, so it's better than Terminus. Better than bad is still bad, you know?

Thirdly, don't worry about how to deal with Angels as soon as they resolve, you should have enough ways to keep it from resolving. Plus you have EE - which has a different main use - deal with Counterbalance.

Greetings