Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I haven't seen a dedicated Lands deck with Titania - that definitely might be a thing though.
Usually vs ~40 lands, Punishing Fire, Loam, Moxen, Explorations, and 6ish flex card (Intuition, Manabond, w/e) type builds I bring out all 4 STP and 1 Phyrexian Revoker for 2 Rest In Peace, 2 Cataclysm, and 1 Pithing Needle.
I would like a way to remove Exploration, at times I've had Disenchant SB and I'd bring that in over another Revoker, but I feel Council's Judgment and Ratchet Bomb are pretty slow.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Hi guys, glad to see people putting up good results lately! I'm getting excited to run this again.
@ Lands - Ratchet Bomb actually seems pretty decent; on 0 you might me able to hit multiple Mox Diamonds, which will really hurt in the early turns; its another out to Exploration as early as T3 when your LD might still be relevant; and if they ARE running Titania, it gets the tokens. Seems better than some other options, at least.
@ Enlightened Tutor - this is something that I feel fairly strongly about - why would you run 2x Tutor, when you could always use the 2nd Tutor slot as another target? I really, really like the 1st to act as an extra copy of whatever you are bringing in, but after that I'd rather use the next slot of another target that could break a matchup; something like Cage or Canonist. It allows me to have a GY hate package of 2-1 Cage-RIP (split however you prefer), while giving added flexibility of having a virtual X+1 copies of Cage where you want only that (Elves) or RIP when you want only that (Lands, RUG). And as someone pointed out, drawing 2x copies of Tutor is just.... ugh, its a bad feeling.
FWIW the reason I like the 2-1 Cage/RIP split is that I've often been screwed out of the game by GY decks before my T2, and having a T1 answer I can mulligan to is much better to me than just hoping they won't be that fast. Moreover, most of our other hate costs 2 so I prefer having the costs split so I can potentially act both T1 and T2 to lock up their plan (eg T1 Cage T2 Canonist/Thalia).
VS Miracles - Watching the Konig vs Lossett match, I thought it was interesting that Konig ran out the SFM before Thalia, even with a Mom out to protect her... [spoilers] yeah, he "gets" Lossett with the Vial activation in resp to Terminus, but they are generally playing it in their draw step and are not often THAT choked on mana, so I see this as taking advantage of an opportunity rather than a line to rely on. Bahra, can you shed some light into your thinking here? I know it's been a while but it seems memorable :P To me, it just seems better to run out Thalia (given that you have Mom) to choke their cantrips asap, especially if you've got Ports coming. The clock is not to be understated, I suppose...
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrShine
VS Miracles - Watching the Konig vs Lossett match, I thought it was interesting that Konig ran out the SFM before Thalia, even with a Mom out to protect her... [spoilers] yeah, he "gets" Lossett with the Vial activation in resp to Terminus, but they are generally playing it in their draw step and are not often THAT choked on mana, so I see this as taking advantage of an opportunity rather than a line to rely on. Bahra, can you shed some light into your thinking here? I know it's been a while but it seems memorable :P To me, it just seems better to run out Thalia (given that you have Mom) to choke their cantrips asap, especially if you've got Ports coming. The clock is not to be understated, I suppose...
There was a lot of reasons not to play Thalia in that situation. First of all I didn't have the Mother of Runes active yet, I had to vial that in after I played my 2 drop. Second of all I had to tap my Karakas which meant that I left Thalia vulnerable to spot removal which could easily be prevented from just waiting 1 turn. Third of all he's playing Legend miracles not Ponder miracles which means that there's very few cantrips to affect with Thalia and that Thalia is most effective to just prevent a Jace on turn 4. Add to that, that the Stoneforge Mystic just has way higher impact, that I can protect the early equip from Swords to Plowshares AND that in that specific situation I had the Thalia + Terminus play in mind, and it's just a no brainer to play the Stoneforge Mystic before the Thalia.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
echofish
It's been mentioned before; Arbiter builds crop up now and again but they rarely find popularity as the central "gimmick" of the deck (Arbiter + GQ) cannot be ensured consistently and that Arbiter himself is an iffy tax. Sometimes you bust your opponent's balls, sometimes they ignore him completely. But with Lands coming back I could see it.
Personally, I like Mangara of Corondor, which is another unpopular choice; as such I don't find myself wanting to test the Arbiter build, but if you like it I think there is some merit to building it.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I started playing recently with the D&T deck. My main question is what is better to start with if you have both in hand, mom or vial?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Farone
I started playing recently with the D&T deck. My main question is what is better to start with if you have both in hand, mom or vial?
Vial, almost 99% of the time
Unless you suspect a Daze, a resolved Vial is always great on the first turn.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Farone
I started playing recently with the D&T deck. My main question is what is better to start with if you have both in hand, mom or vial?
I've always been of the opinion that, given the choice, T1 Vial is better because a) there's a better chance that it will resolve and b) lets you vial-in the Mom as you go up the curve, thus maximizing mana efficiency. Moreover, there is the chance they'll tap out before their EOT so Mom can come in, dodge their removal and get active right away.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
yes that is what I thought. Did some testing yesterday with some friends. Played against omnishow, reanimator and goblins. Played like 2-2 against omni, 2-0 vs reanimator and 2 times 2-1 against the goblin deck. Have a very good feeling about the deck:)
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Farone
yes that is what I thought. Did some testing yesterday with some friends. Played against omnishow, reanimator and goblins. Played like 2-2 against omni, 2-0 vs reanimator and 2 times 2-1 against the goblin deck. Have a very good feeling about the deck:)
Reanimator and Gobs are good matchups for sure, but Omni can be a bit complicated; doing evenly against it is a good sign, for sure.
Would you mind posting a list?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I use this list atm:
9 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Mangara of Corondor
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB:
1 Ratched Bomb
1 Cataclysm
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Armageddon
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I finally managed to get out of bed early enough to go to a tournament, and actually did fairly well for once. Here's a miniature short form tourney report.
My decklist: (Fairly generic build, nothing fancy)
7 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Karakas
3 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Eiganjo Castle (Note: I only own 7 portal 1 plains, these are filler since I don't want to play mixed land arts.)
Spells:
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Creatures:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Serra Avenger
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
SB:
3x Sunlance
3x Burrenton Forge-Tender (Kinda mediocre. I'm going to be swapping it out for 2x Wilt-Leaf Liege and 1x Manriki Gusari)
3x Rest in Peace
2x Council's Jugement
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
So, here's a quick rundown of my games. I didn't make any notes and it was about 10 hours ago so I may have forgotten how things went.
Round 1: GW Humans. Game 1 I open up with Wasteland go, turn 2 Stoneforge Mystic. He goes mom turn 2 mystic. Then I play a Mangara of Corondor and sort of wiggle my eyebrows at his mother of runes as he repeatedly taps it to stop my mangara from exploding it. After that, I just flickerwisped his Batterskull token and won with the Skull and Flickerwisp. Game 2 I can't honestly remember. Game 3, I think it was sort of like the first except I was the one that play Mother of Runes.
Round 2: Sneak and Tell. Overall, Karakas+Phyrexian Revoker on Sneak Attack stop him from doing much game 1. Game 2 he through the breaches me with an Emrakul. Game 3 it's like Game 1 except I also have a Labyrinth Spirit and his Show and Tell Griselbrand meets my Phyrexian Revoker. Then I removed it anyways and just swung to kill.
Round 3: RUG. Stuff happened. There were creatures, there was blocking, there was removal. It was a slow-ish grindy game. I won eventually with evasive creatures and being able to remove/trade for his Mongooses. Goyf I just chumped with random bears or Brimaz tokens. Highlights include triple Stoneforge Mystic to counter his Sulfur Elemental.
Round 4: Infect. He sort of splooged on my face with an Inkmoth Nexus before I could do anything. Game 2 I removed his Inkmoth nexus and swung with brimaz. Game 3, he had answers for double StP, then Become Immense -> Berserk happened and I died.
Round 5: Pox. Game 1, he plays a turn 1 Liliana. Then I sort of miraculously manage topdeck my way to slow grindy win. (Vial, then flickerwisp mainphase 2 to kill his liliana, then a revoker for his cursed scroll). Game 2 was similar to the first.
Overall, for once I didn't punt too badly. Burrenton Forge-Tender didn't work for my SB and I'll be swapping it out for other stuff.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
How are people feeling about the 3-cmc spot(s)? I see Brimaz in a lot of lists recently. How do people feel about Mirran Crusader vs Brimaz? Bug seems rife in my meta
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nevilshute
How are people feeling about the 3-cmc spot(s)? I see Brimaz in a lot of lists recently. How do people feel about Mirran Crusader vs Brimaz? Bug seems rife in my meta
No reason to play Brimaz currently. Mirran Crusader is much better in a BUG meta.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
It's a meta thing. We don't have as much BUG, but have more weird RUG/UR/creature based things. Brimaz can sort of just trade things and facetank other things. Which means it works more for me.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
Reanimator and Gobs are good matchups for sure
I agree with you on reanimator being a good matchup for DnT, but Goblins? Why do you say/think that?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
I agree with you on reanimator being a good matchup for DnT, but Goblins? Why do you say/think that?
Jitte, SoFI, Batterskull. Each stomp out goblins. We name Vial with Revoker to deny them advantage/speed, or SGC, Gempalm or Sharpshooter to deny them removal (or use Mom) and we have simply better defense with or creatures.
Maybe you'll lose a game to gobs, but so long as you play smart (a factor in every game I suppose) you'll win basically every round.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
Jitte, SoFI, Batterskull. Each stomp out goblins. We name Vial with Revoker to deny them advantage/speed, or SGC, Gempalm or Sharpshooter to deny them removal (or use Mom) and we have simply better defense with or creatures.
Maybe you'll lose a game to gobs, but so long as you play smart (a factor in every game I suppose) you'll win basically every round.
It's interesting to read that from your perspective; I'm primarily a goblins player and I've always found DnT to be a pretty favourable matchup for Goblins due to the card advantage and tutoring for key cards like Tin-Street Hooligan etc.
(Just to point out, I haven't come here to pick a fight, I've been playing DnT for a little bit now (because overall DnT is clearly the better deck in legacy) and it was just interesting to see Goblins raise a mention :tongue: )
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
It's interesting to read that from your perspective; I'm primarily a goblins player and I've always found DnT to be a pretty favourable matchup for Goblins due to the card advantage and tutoring for key cards like Tin-Street Hooligan etc.
(Just to point out, I haven't come here to pick a fight, I've been playing DnT for a little bit now (because overall DnT is clearly the better deck in legacy) and it was just interesting to see Goblins raise a mention :tongue: )
Perhaps you are playing against inexperienced D&T players; they are rather common. However, I've played both sides a lot and D&T has the clear advantage almost every game, even in the face of artifact kill and stuff like Pyrokinesis. D&T just out-values Goblins, especially with Containment Priest, Canonist and extra removal out of the board.
Just my 2¢. Glad to see you've come to reason and joined our side, though. [emoji14]
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I agree that Goblins is very favorable for us.
It's like a 75/25 match up if both players are experienced. And that's being generous to goblins.
