Miracle Control

that's my point. we have already discussed this all and those matchups are all coin flip.

I think that Pyroclasm is the best card against Grixis and Bug/Burg or Delver decks of any kind.
The real danger there is only Tarmogoyf and Tasigur.
If you even side in some grave hate you can't have problems. 4 CBs also.. lol

The only troublesome cards to me are equipments. The stoneforge package is a nightmare. That's why I was considering Tower of the Magistrate or just the 2nd Disenchant in the SB.
it gets both Omniscience and Batterskull and it skips Chalice@1

I'm fairly happy when my opponent casts a turn two Stoneforge Mystic. But if you are no longer playing Terminus, then sure, you will struggle against SFM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hrothgar

Can we speak about Shardless BUG?
This is a bad matchup we can find in tournaments (Ovino Spring, some legacy side event of Lille, MKM series in Roma see this deck into top 8).

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It's not a bad MU. It's basically a control mirror, with them having more midrange and us having more end game. Games are super grindy. Use your removal sparingly (Agent cascading into a creature after we STP something is not what we like to see). Snapcaster seems like our more versatile card in the MU.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by useL

There's quite a healthy discussion regarding this like 3-6 months back in this thread. Nothing has changed really in either of the lists to warrant for a new discussion. Maybe Monastery Mentor has influenced a little and is good against their heavy landwalking force but nothing else.

You will just end up discussing CB or no CB, FoW or no FoW, Blasts or no Blasts and maybe oneoffs like Blood Moon and Moat.

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1. Blood Moon or not.

2. Leave in CB or Blank Abrupt Decay by taking out CB.

The only difference is that the popularity of Dig has minimized the effectiveness of Liliana. Lots of Omni-tell decks just stomp on Shardless BUG. In conclusion, try to fight over Ancestral Vision and minimize sylvan library. Some of them try to surprise you with Notion Thief, keep that on the radar.

Hi guys.
I'v been playing Miracles for almost a year now. (mostly your typical Reid Duke list)
I enjoy the deck a lot actually, but I have a fair number of Sneak/Show style of deck in my meta
and I tend to lose all my matchup against that particular type of deck.

They always have "that last counter" in the counter war or "that follow-up turn"
with Sneak Attack/SnT etc.

Here's my 75 :

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Dig Through Time

1 Pyroblast
1 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgment

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels

5 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa

Sideboard

3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Blood Moon
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wear/Tear

Game 2-3 I side out StP, Terminus, EtA and I side in all the counterspell, the needle, disenchant effect, canonist (if I suspect an omniscience)
Plateau replaces Volcanic Island for budget reason, but it can't be the only reason I lose so much. (I'll play steam vents and get on with it if that's the case)
I don't like Karakas, it's too narrow a card for exposing myself to wasteland in other matchup.
a 1-of won't change a lot the matchup I think ? No? Yes?

How you guys approach this matchup?
I try to counter all the cantrips I can without lefting me out of countermagic for SnT and/or Sneak, TtB etc.

What am I doing wrong?
Is the matchup that bad for us?

Thank you guys.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by coricho

Hi guys.
I'v been playing Miracles for almost a year now. (mostly your typical Reid Duke list)
I enjoy the deck a lot actually, but I have a fair number of Sneak/Show style of deck in my meta
and I tend to lose all my matchup against that particular type of deck.

They always have "that last counter" in the counter war or "that follow-up turn"
with Sneak Attack/SnT etc.

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Against Sneak and Show, once you have needle and Karakas in play, they cannot win until they deal with either of those 2 permanents. Are you aware of that? If you want to increase your win rate on that MU, run at least 1 Karakas in your Mana base. In the SB games, you want to be aware of:
1. Blood Moon to turn off your Karakas
2. Bounce effect like Wipe Away on your needle
3. Boseiju along with Through the breach to overwhelm Karakas and needle

In other words, Venser in the SB would help against Sneak and Show's hateful SB.

Your boarding plan against Sneak Attack is alright.
However, I don't like hybrid lists like the one you are running. I would aim for more consistency. My advice would be either to go with the 4-Ponder list or the Legend list with Karakas and Venser.

To fix the problem of losing a counterwar you should seriously consider running Flusterstorms in your sideboard. Swap them for Spell Pierce and/or Hydroblast.
If Sneak and Show is prevalent in your meta you could add Containment Priest to the board. Meddling Mage would be another more versatile option.
You could cut a Blood Moon and the Grafdigger's Cage.

Against Sneak and Show I would not recommend to counter all their cantrips (because you can't). Keep those for a fight over Sneak Attack. In the meantime deploy pressure by flashing in a Hatebear so that you have a clock on the table. Like I mentioned above MM, Clique and Containment Priest will all get that job done.

Running this list will greatly increase your chance against those two decks:

22 LANDS

4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Karakas
2 Arid Mesa
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Volcanic Island

5 CREATURES

3 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Snapcaster Mage

23 INSTANTS and SORC.

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Terminus
2 Dig Through Time
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Counterspell

10 OTHER SPELLS

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SIDEBOARD

1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Council's Judgment
1 Wear / Tear
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pyroclasm

Omnishow: + 1 Venser, 1 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Cavern of Souls, 1 Wear/Tear, 2 Ethersworn Canonist
- 2 Stp, 2 Terminus, 2 Entreat the Angels, 1 Plains, 2 Jace

Your number one plan is to draw Ethersworn Canonist since they can't win by Show and Tell --> Omniscience when you have Canonist. Once you have Canonist in play (thanks to Show and Tell), they can't play spells this turn so you can freely destroy Omniscience with your 4 REB, 1 Wear/Tear.

If they go for the Show and Tell into Emrakul, you still have 6 outs in this version to completly blow them out (2 Vensers, 2 Karakas and 2 Terminus).

Your worst fear in a answered Turn 2 Young Pyromancer so in my opinion with this decklist, you need to keep some Terminus to have an out if Pyromancer resolves.

With this deck configuration, you should be quite unfavored game one (i think no miracle decklist are favored game 1 against Omnishow) but very favored Game 2 and 3. During GP Lille (where i finished 14th with this very decklist), I faced 3 Omnishow opponents, lost all game one and won all sided games.

Concerning Sneak and Show, i haven't faced this deck for a long time... but i would sideboard the same except that i would the 2 Jaces and remove 2 more Terminus. If they also play Young Pyromancer, i would keep 2 Terminus for 2 cards amoung Jace/Island/Ponder.

Try this version if you want to have a better chance at winning your friends ;)
I hope this helped you a little.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

1. Blood Moon or not.

2. Leave in CB or Blank Abrupt Decay by taking out CB.

The only difference is that the popularity of Dig has minimized the effectiveness of Liliana. Lots of Omni-tell decks just stomp on Shardless BUG. In conclusion, try to fight over Ancestral Vision and minimize sylvan library. Some of them try to surprise you with Notion Thief, keep that on the radar.

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In this days I have test my Miracles vs Shardless and imho:

- Blood Moon is great, win condition in some situations
- Rip is not bad because he have: Deathrite, Tarmo, Tasigur, Dig
- Monastery Mentor is good because he can choose the target for abrupt and we can leave in counterbalance (and he have CC3)
- Vendilion is good because is a good response for PW and can remove abrupt for Moon

Anymay the G1 imho is very hard to win

Since Shardless attacks on so many angles, you really need access to Diving Top to find the right answer (REB when they are casting AV, Terminus when they dump multiple creatures, Clique when they cast a PW, etc.). And for that reason, I've found that the post-board games hinge on Needle and Null Rod. When they don't have it (or you have a Disenchant effect ready) and you resolve Top, things get a lot easier. If you can handle their means of card advantage, then you are both playing off of the top of the deck, and SDT generally means that you win this battle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hrothgar

In this days I have test my Miracles vs Shardless and imho:

- Blood Moon is great, win condition in some situations
- Rip is not bad because he have: Deathrite, Tarmo, Tasigur, Dig
- Monastery Mentor is good because he can choose the target for abrupt and we can leave in counterbalance (and he have CC3)
- Vendilion is good because is a good response for PW and can remove abrupt for Moon

Anymay the G1 imho is very hard to win

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I agree. I used to approach the shardless matchup by taking out all decay targets and basically surviving until I could eot entreat for a bunch and just overwhelm them.

I think now with mentor I'm going to try the opposite and just bring in all the decay targets, RIP, CB, mentor, etc to stress out their decays and pressure them with mentor. Havent tested this approach much but is seems better than before.

I'm new to miracles and finally built it after the printing of Dig but what were the overall differences in boarding when it comes to BUG Delver VS. Shardless BUG? There aren't many people with BUG Delver in my local meta but when I face it I always seem to either cheese out a win or get shut down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Misersoneof

I'm new to miracles and finally built it after the printing of Dig but what were the overall differences in boarding when it comes to BUG Delver VS. Shardless BUG? There aren't many people with BUG Delver in my local meta but when I face it I always seem to either cheese out a win or get shut down.

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BUG Delver is an very generic term, there're many different variants. As long as it doesn't have Shardless and it's BUG, we call it BUG delver/control. Against both BUG and Shardless, you want to take out FoW and replace them with Red Blasts. Common SB cards from either decks are Null Rod, Slyvan library. Rare SB card would be Notion Thief. Hence, you need to bring in disenchant or wear//tear.

Against all the non-Shardless versions, it's generally correct to take out CB in oder to blank Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm. Some people do it against Shardless also, but I would not recommend it. If you have needle, here would be good. You get to name DRS, Liliana, and Tarpit.

Claudio, what's your SB/playstyle plan in the mirror?

thanks

hey,

what do you guys think? is it worth playing Surgical extraction in the SB?

I might try it as a 1-of. It's super relevant in many MUs now (hitting DTT from Grixis, SnT from Omni, Bridge/Ichorid/Nether Shadow from Dredge [though RIP works even better], Reanimator targets, to name a few).

Trouble is finding what to cut for it.

Seriously rip does the job way better. Killing drege,reanimator, dig, goyf...

The only Point i See surgical over rip is the synergy with snapcaster and that it can be cast on t1.

I've been playing Surgical Extraction as a 2-of and have had no problems. You should be able to neuter most GY decks with a mixture of SE and Snapcaster and smart play, and it doesn't destroy your digs/snaps as the game progresses. I think that if you're running 3 snaps and 2 digs, RIP isn't really where you want to be right now.

I've been playing 2 Surgical as my only grave hate for a bit now. Although I haven't played against Dredge since making the change, I've been very happy with it.

That said, I don't think it is what you want to be doing against DTT decks. I have only brought it in against decks that play Punishing Fire (though not all), Life from the Loam, Entomb, or Past in Flames. I could imagine some deck constructions such that you would bring it in against Omni, but then I don't think you built your 75 correctly if that was the case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by presquepartout

I've been playing 2 Surgical as my only grave hate for a bit now. Although I haven't played against Dredge since making the change, I've been very happy with it.

I could imagine some deck constructions such that you would bring it in against Omni, but then I don't think you built your 75 correctly if that was the case.

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Well making sure Omniscience never hits the table seems fine.

Rest in Peace is not an option anymore now that Snapcaster gained more value and Miracles being a deck that also wants to play Dig Through Time.

There is one card that is really good against SneakShow, Reanimator, Dredge and can also splash-damage Aether Vial decks: Containment Priest. Surgical Extraction is okay, but isn't good by itself since it needs some setup (i.e. a grindy attrition-war before). And there is still Dig Through Time to let Surgical Extraction fizzle inevitably. Hence, I don't think this card is well-placed in the current metagame.

I'd still prefer Containment Priest to combat GY-based strategies such as Dredge and Reanimator as it dodges discard quite well and also can't be busted by Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce that they might have or bring in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adan

Rest in Peace is not an option anymore now that Snapcaster gained more value and Miracles being a deck that also wants to play Dig Through Time.

There is one card that is really good against SneakShow, Reanimator, Dredge and can also splash-damage Aether Vial decks: Containment Priest. Surgical Extraction is okay, but isn't good by itself since it needs some setup (i.e. a grindy attrition-war before). And there is still Dig Through Time to let Surgical Extraction fizzle inevitably. Hence, I don't think this card is well-placed in the current metagame.

I'd still prefer Containment Priest to combat GY-based strategies such as Dredge and Reanimator as it dodges discard quite well and also can't be busted by Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce that they might have or bring in.

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Containment Priest doesn't deal with Loam, PFire, and Past in Flame. Priest is a fine card, but it only covers a sub-set of graveyard based strategies while RiP covers all.

Counterbalance is your answer to all 3 of those, neither storm or lands can reasonably expect to win once you've assembled those two unless lands has a sufficiently developed board (at which point you probably were losing to begin with).

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Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds

Counterbalance is your answer to all 3 of those, neither storm or lands can reasonably expect to win once you've assembled those two unless lands has a sufficiently developed board (at which point you probably were losing to begin with).

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I'm more happy if I land a RIP, exile some good stuff, then have it get Decayed later. For example, I was playing against 4c Loam and landed a RIP when he had both Stage and Depths in the yard + Loam to Dredge back, as well as a KotR on the field. I ended up winning that game, but if I hadn't exiled his yard, CB does nothing for me because I can't keep floating a 2 on top, plus he can just Decay it, Dredge, then win.

I would still value DTT more in that MU then RIP, DTT will get you cards to address the problem cards in that MU (such as Liliana, Chalice of the Void or Sylvan Library), RIP really doesn't do a whole lot when you can't cast swords to plowshares and they are beating your face in with 2/2's and grinding you out with lilly and library, that's also a MU that you wouldn't want counterbalance in as the curve is much wonkier (no 1's and lots of 2's and 3's drastly reduce how effective counterbalance is), whereas with Lands and storm (MU's that may be more common or seen in top tables) you do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds

I would still value DTT more in that MU then RIP, DTT will get you cards to address the problem cards in that MU (such as Liliana, Chalice of the Void or Sylvan Library), RIP really doesn't do a whole lot when you can't cast swords to plowshares and they are beating your face in with 2/2's and grinding you out with lilly and library, that's also a MU that you wouldn't want counterbalance in as the curve is much wonkier (no 1's and lots of 2's and 3's drastly reduce how effective counterbalance is), whereas with Lands and storm (MU's that may be more common or seen in top tables) you do.

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I personally believe Lands, Aggro-loam (or Punshing Maverick without cmc 1), and Storm are totally different MU.

Aggro-loam: I like your argument more in this MU, I wouldn't want to cast RiP, there're just too many other threats other than Loam.



Lands: Still favor RiP in this MU. Since we're in the context of SB game, how long do you think the first CB/RiP will last? When you play RiP, you really meant to get rid of that PFire/Loam already in Lands' graveyard. If you already have CB floating 2, holding onto RiP won't hurt. I'm pretty certain Lands will Grip/Decay that CB at some point. When that moment comes, you will have the option to get rid of Loam/PFire for good, especially valuable when you still don't have the back-up CB ready.

If you don't have CB in play and Lands' already Gamble/Naturally draw into Loam, you Have to stop that engine from happening via whatever graveyard hate possible. This is important because it's likely you might get Port/Waste locked soon when Loam engine kicks in. Lands can sometimes have explosive start.



Storm: Priest does nothing. Surgical only works if Storm is going off blind. Why wouldn't he duress/therapy/probe your hand first?

Overall, we are comparing SB options in SB games. Under that context, CB is just not as reliable as game 1.

Lots of lands decks have Boseiju in the SB, a good player will CropRot/Gamble for it asap before CB comes down.

The Lands player at my LGS has Boseiju in his main now. Lands is the matchup where I love Surgical. With Snapcaster, you can often eliminate most of their relevant draws. And it is another free spell for Mentor, allowing you to cast Mentor without fear of Punishing Fire as soon as you have three untapped lands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Lands: Still favor RiP in this MU. Since we're in the context of SB game, how long do you think the first CB/RiP will last? When you play RiP, you really meant to get rid of that PFire/Loam already in Lands' graveyard. If you already have CB floating 2, holding onto RiP won't hurt. I'm pretty certain Lands will Grip/Decay that CB at some point. When that moment comes, you will have the option to get rid of Loam/PFire for good, especially valuable when you still don't have the back-up CB ready.

If you don't have CB in play and Lands' already Gamble/Naturally draw into Loam, you Have to stop that engine from happening via whatever graveyard hate possible. This is important because it's likely you might get Port/Waste locked soon when Loam engine kicks in. Lands can sometimes have explosive start.

Storm: Priest does nothing. Surgical only works if Storm is going off blind. Why wouldn't he duress/therapy/probe your hand first?

Overall, we are comparing SB options in SB games. Under that context, CB is just not as reliable as game 1.

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Against Lands, they have no filtering to speak of, once you have CB/Top they either need to have the Krosan grip in hand or draw into it, in a deck with usually 2 tranquil thicket and little else, the odds they draw it soon (before you've advanced beyond the point where their Port/Wasteland strategy will matter against you), are remarkably low, and supposing they have gotten the engine going, floating a 2 on top still stops them mostly, now if they have gotten a substantial board prescense, then yes, you would want RIP but if they've gotten to that point, they've probably gotten multiple ports, a few active wastelands meaning that you may not even have access to white mana to cast it, or you are forced into either holding white mana up for swords on marit leige or RIP (and then getting 20 to the face the following turn)

Against Storm, I agree priest does nothing, but CB is good enough and cutting them off of filtering and tutors until they get Decay while you sculpt your hand is likely enough, as for surgical being stripped out of your hand, look if they blow a duress grabbing my surgical instead of counterbalance/countermagic I'm fine with this, especially if you run snapcaster mage.

Again, both of these decks have very streamlined curves, even if CB does become more unreliable post board, you still choke them on resources until they draw an answer.

Something experimental vs Lands w/ Surgical - instead of sniping off Loam, which can be played around with Thickets and such, I am trying out a strategy where I extract the two most important cards they have - Dark Depths and Punishing Fire. Hitting Thespian Stage, Port, Wasteland, or KGrip is also not terrible. The logic is that they can Loam forever because they're not Loaming into anything meaningful. I don't care if they have a hundred thousand lands in play if those lands don't do anything. Also this strategy seems sufficient in that, because they can't control what they dredge, they can't necessarily play around having their critical cards extracted.

Seems fine, just the thing is, loam makes that deck work so ultimately sandbagging your 1-2 surgicals for dd or fire or port means that you take out a tool and not what makes the deck actually a deck

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AnziD

Something experimental vs Lands w/ Surgical - instead of sniping off Loam, which can be played around with Thickets and such, I am trying out a strategy where I extract the two most important cards they have - Dark Depths and Punishing Fire. Hitting Thespian Stage, Port, Wasteland, or KGrip is also not terrible. The logic is that they can Loam forever because they're not Loaming into anything meaningful. I don't care if they have a hundred thousand lands in play if those lands don't do anything. Also this strategy seems sufficient in that, because they can't control what they dredge, they can't necessarily play around having their critical cards extracted.

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Yep, I have to agree that this is the right plan. Getting loam slows them down a lot but getting depths / p fire removes win conditions

Powered my way to some awesome 1-3 drops this weekend with Mentor Miracles. Playing it for the first time. Deck was a ton of fun, just played some bad MU's or just flat out played bad.


Round 1. Vs Classic Miracles

Game 1. Managed to resolve CB turn 2. Turn 3 Top. Turn 6 - 7 Found a mentor and proceeded to win on the spot.
Game 2. See Game 1.

1-0

Feeling good I prepare to steam roll.

Round 2. Vs Lands.

1. I forget I have a counterbalance a couple times and he gets the loam thing going. This game goes way too long and he eventually locks me with Engineered Explosives and Academy Ruins over and over.
2. I surgical his Loam when he casts it turn to start dredging, Proceed to draw 5 straight non basics (with a top in play i might add) He gets ports and wastelands online. Followed by a 3 ball. I'm at 2 lands and getting ported every turn. He drops a 20/20 with me at 2 lands and no way to plow his token.

1-1

Little sad I lost but, whatever that's magic. This is my first time playing this deck.

Round 3. Vs 12 post.

I know the guy, played against him a lot, Know what he's on.

Round 1. Counterbalance is bad at stopping ulamog on turn 4.
Round 2. Cliqued his hand. 2 Emrakuls with 5 "posts" Conceded.

Meh. I know how that was gonna go.

Round 4. Vs Jund.

So the guy game with a modern deck. A stupid expensive one will Japanese Foiled Bobs Autographed by bob himself.

Game 1. We acutally play a really interactive game but Thoughtseize and liliana did work. I couldn't keep a hand, and he bob'd me to death. Didn't see any removal in all my pondering and topping That's fair.
Game 2. Thoughseize, BBE and Liliana again did work. I did terminus away a lethal swing Twice, but with no hand because of cascaded liliana. I am forced to concede after drawing a few lands. and him getting a DRS online.

MU seems bad. albeit i probably played it wrong.


Overall, the deck is fun. I really like it. I just ran into MU's that i'm not sure how to play quite yet. Just gotta practice a little more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

First of all, everyone should have 2 Canonists in their SB.

Game 1, the goal is to resolve CB and float a CMC 3.

Game 2, you're trying to fend off the first wave while you're looking for your own combo. I don't mean CB, I mean Canonist + Red Blast. Now, are you safe even if you have the combo? No, you still have to anticipate YP route.

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I stopped playing Canonists in my board because it always ended up this way:
first wave: He S&T, i pu Canonist, He put Omniscience, i Reb and here we are golden
Second wave: Boseiju into S&T i say "OK" he puts down Emrakul,
i Try terminus, he counters, i cannot counter back, i die miserably

Is this only happening to me?

SOmetimes they Gitaxian me and puts down Emrakul with the first Boseiju Show and Tell, i put Canonist, i die again miserably...

BTW sorry for the late answer, but Exams were hitting me hard in the last month

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gros

I stopped playing Canonists in my board because it always ended up this way:
first wave: He S&T, i pu Canonist, He put Omniscience, i Reb and here we are golden
Second wave: Boseiju into S&T i say "OK" he puts down Emrakul,
i Try terminus, he counters, i cannot counter back, i die miserably

Is this only happening to me?

SOmetimes they Gitaxian me and puts down Emrakul with the first Boseiju Show and Tell, i put Canonist, i die again miserably...

BTW sorry for the late answer, but Exams were hitting me hard in the last month

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that's why our first line of attack is Meddling Mage on SnT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gros

I stopped playing Canonists in my board because it always ended up this way:
first wave: He S&T, i pu Canonist, He put Omniscience, i Reb and here we are golden
Second wave: Boseiju into S&T i say "OK" he puts down Emrakul,
i Try terminus, he counters, i cannot counter back, i die miserably

Is this only happening to me?

SOmetimes they Gitaxian me and puts down Emrakul with the first Boseiju Show and Tell, i put Canonist, i die again miserably...

BTW sorry for the late answer, but Exams were hitting me hard in the last month

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Well..., aren't you looking at this from a half-empty glass? If not for the Canonist and REB, you're dead to first wave already. Like, there won't be a second wave when you're dead to first.

Now, if you run Karakas, can you not find it from the beginning of the game to the turn in which 2nd wave occur? Granted, yes, the situation you described has happened to me during my testing and I did not find my Karakas, but I know that I have outs. Also, if you keep attacking Omni-tell opponent with a Snapcaster or a Clique, it is possible his life total is low enough such that he cannot pay life to do that 2nd wave (2 from uncounterable-wish, or uncouterable dig).

Now, would M Mage be better off? BBD appears to think so, I prefer canonist route, and I cannot say which is strictly better at this point in time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gros

I stopped playing Canonists in my board because it always ended up this way:
first wave: He S&T, i pu Canonist, He put Omniscience, i Reb and here we are golden
Second wave: Boseiju into S&T i say "OK" he puts down Emrakul,
i Try terminus, he counters, i cannot counter back, i die miserably

Is this only happening to me?

SOmetimes they Gitaxian me and puts down Emrakul with the first Boseiju Show and Tell, i put Canonist, i die again miserably...

BTW sorry for the late answer, but Exams were hitting me hard in the last month

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You can run Karakas, or SnT in a Venser, or Terminus on his end step. There are many things you can set up for. Canonist is not a silver bullet, though I see many players thinking it is. It is merely a tool that delays their plan to help you set up yours (EOT ETA or land a Jace with CB on the field to counter their FoW, etc.)

the only very big problem is with the UR version. Overmaster really pressures us and overall: EOT uncounterable Cunning Wish for uncounterable Through the Breach --> Emrakul is pretty much impossible to beat for us.

Uncounterable 15 damages, board sweeper.. the impossibility to deal with Boseiju is really a terrible downside here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Well..., aren't you looking at this from a half-empty glass? If not for the Canonist and REB, you're dead to first wave already. Like, there won't be a second wave when you're dead to first.

Now, if you run Karakas, can you not find it from the beginning of the game to the turn in which 2nd wave occur? Granted, yes, the situation you described has happened to me during my testing and I did not find my Karakas, but I know that I have outs. Also, if you keep attacking Omni-tell opponent with a Snapcaster or a Clique, it is possible his life total is low enough such that he cannot pay life to do that 2nd wave (2 from uncounterable-wish, or uncouterable dig).

Now, would M Mage be better off? BBD appears to think so, I prefer canonist route, and I cannot say which is strictly better at this point in time.

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Maybe you are right, i was ususally playing the double- Venser Karakas sb plan, after testing out Canonist, btw i'm going to try again that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gros

I stopped playing Canonists in my board because it always ended up this way:
first wave: He S&T, i pu Canonist, He put Omniscience, i Reb and here we are golden
Second wave: Boseiju into S&T i say "OK" he puts down Emrakul,
i Try terminus, he counters, i cannot counter back, i die miserably

Is this only happening to me?

SOmetimes they Gitaxian me and puts down Emrakul with the first Boseiju Show and Tell, i put Canonist, i die again miserably...

BTW sorry for the late answer, but Exams were hitting me hard in the last month

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If there are still Terminus in your deck postboard something is wrong:) That aside, canonist is very good vs Omnitell and just as good as meddling mage would be..