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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
As a new-ish TES player, the flood of quality content you guys have been putting out has been great. Thanks for that.
I went 3-2 last night in our local monthly. I beat Elves, BUG Shadow Delver, and Enchantress and lost to ANT and Burn. I'm writing up a tournament tonight with the gritty details, but I wanted to go ahead and post this to get it off my chest (it's been giving me conniptions): I struggle to beat burn. The website (and common sense) say the matchup should be favorable for me, but I really feel like it's about 40-60 or worse. If I don't make a pile of goblins on turn 1, it seems like they always have the Eidolon on their turn 2, and winning through an Eidolon feels impossible most of the time. Sure, you can Wish for removal, but unless you're waiting until turn 3-4 to make those land drops, you're going to have to use acceleration to get there; that means taking usually 6 or 8 damage off the Eidolon just to remove it at a loss of bare minimum one tutor effect. God forbid they drop a second. Games 2 and 3, they bring in Pillars, and those are even harder to remove if you're not on the Abrupt Decay plan. Even if they don't have the Eidolon, the insanely fast life total pressure makes Ad Naus lines G1 significantly more risky.
Am I just playing this matchup completely incorrectly? I know my mulligan game is the weakest aspect of my play, but I've run this matchup dozens of times in the last month, and I think I've improved. Are there any particular play patterns or cards you guys look for/avoid that aren't obvious? I try to stay away from cantrips and Duresses in game 1 and I avoid Ad Nauseam lines unless I can get it off turn 1 or 2 with mana floating and a substantial life total. I go for Tendrils every game if I can, and if not I aim for 12 or more goblins to punch through their ground team.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FavoredRevenant
As a new-ish TES player, the flood of quality content you guys have been putting out has been great. Thanks for that.
I went 3-2 last night in our local monthly. I beat Elves, BUG Shadow Delver, and Enchantress and lost to ANT and Burn. I'm writing up a tournament tonight with the gritty details, but I wanted to go ahead and post this to get it off my chest (it's been giving me conniptions): I struggle to beat burn. The website (and common sense) say the matchup should be favorable for me, but I really feel like it's about 40-60 or worse. If I don't make a pile of goblins on turn 1, it seems like they always have the Eidolon on their turn 2, and winning through an Eidolon feels impossible most of the time. Sure, you can Wish for removal, but unless you're waiting until turn 3-4 to make those land drops, you're going to have to use acceleration to get there; that means taking usually 6 or 8 damage off the Eidolon just to remove it at a loss of bare minimum one tutor effect. God forbid they drop a second. Games 2 and 3, they bring in Pillars, and those are even harder to remove if you're not on the Abrupt Decay plan. Even if they don't have the Eidolon, the insanely fast life total pressure makes Ad Naus lines G1 significantly more risky.
Am I just playing this matchup completely incorrectly? I know my mulligan game is the weakest aspect of my play, but I've run this matchup dozens of times in the last month, and I think I've improved. Are there any particular play patterns or cards you guys look for/avoid that aren't obvious? I try to stay away from cantrips and Duresses in game 1 and I avoid Ad Nauseam lines unless I can get it off turn 1 or 2 with mana floating and a substantial life total. I go for Tendrils every game if I can, and if not I aim for 12 or more goblins to punch through their ground team.
I am not super experinced in this matchup, but I believe that an Ad nauseum when they have two lands is bad, and that past in flames is your friend. Also make some goblins!!!!
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FavoredRevenant
As a new-ish TES player, the flood of quality content you guys have been putting out has been great. Thanks for that.
I went 3-2 last night in our local monthly. I beat Elves, BUG Shadow Delver, and Enchantress and lost to ANT and Burn. I'm writing up a tournament tonight with the gritty details, but I wanted to go ahead and post this to get it off my chest (it's been giving me conniptions): I struggle to beat burn. The website (and common sense) say the matchup should be favorable for me, but I really feel like it's about 40-60 or worse. If I don't make a pile of goblins on turn 1, it seems like they always have the Eidolon on their turn 2, and winning through an Eidolon feels impossible most of the time. Sure, you can Wish for removal, but unless you're waiting until turn 3-4 to make those land drops, you're going to have to use acceleration to get there; that means taking usually 6 or 8 damage off the Eidolon just to remove it at a loss of bare minimum one tutor effect. God forbid they drop a second. Games 2 and 3, they bring in Pillars, and those are even harder to remove if you're not on the Abrupt Decay plan. Even if they don't have the Eidolon, the insanely fast life total pressure makes Ad Naus lines G1 significantly more risky.
Am I just playing this matchup completely incorrectly? I know my mulligan game is the weakest aspect of my play, but I've run this matchup dozens of times in the last month, and I think I've improved. Are there any particular play patterns or cards you guys look for/avoid that aren't obvious? I try to stay away from cantrips and Duresses in game 1 and I avoid Ad Nauseam lines unless I can get it off turn 1 or 2 with mana floating and a substantial life total. I go for Tendrils every game if I can, and if not I aim for 12 or more goblins to punch through their ground team.
Don't be afraid to mulligan aggressively if you have a slow hand, going off quickly is key in this matchup. I'd also go for Empty the Warrens lines more often as most of the time it just wins the race. After sideboarding we have four answers to Eidolon and Pyrostatic Pillar, which is a lot.The best advice I can give though is definitely to mulligan slower hands more often, even if you mulligan into a hand that can only make ten goblins it's still better than not going off before the burn deck takes a heavy toll on your life total or drops an Eidolon or Pillar.
Also, I recommend checking out the sideboard guide on the website as it gives a great idea of our game plan after game one. You should also read Alex Poling's Battle Matchup article where he tackles the matchup more in depth.
Hope this helps!
http://theepicstorm.com/sideboard-guide/
http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-matchup-battles-burn/
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FavoredRevenant
As a new-ish TES player, the flood of quality content you guys have been putting out has been great. Thanks for that.
I went 3-2 last night in our local monthly. I beat Elves, BUG Shadow Delver, and Enchantress and lost to ANT and Burn. I'm writing up a tournament tonight with the gritty details, but I wanted to go ahead and post this to get it off my chest (it's been giving me conniptions): I struggle to beat burn. The website (and common sense) say the matchup should be favorable for me, but I really feel like it's about 40-60 or worse. If I don't make a pile of goblins on turn 1, it seems like they always have the Eidolon on their turn 2, and winning through an Eidolon feels impossible most of the time. Sure, you can Wish for removal, but unless you're waiting until turn 3-4 to make those land drops, you're going to have to use acceleration to get there; that means taking usually 6 or 8 damage off the Eidolon just to remove it at a loss of bare minimum one tutor effect. God forbid they drop a second. Games 2 and 3, they bring in Pillars, and those are even harder to remove if you're not on the Abrupt Decay plan. Even if they don't have the Eidolon, the insanely fast life total pressure makes Ad Naus lines G1 significantly more risky.
Am I just playing this matchup completely incorrectly? I know my mulligan game is the weakest aspect of my play, but I've run this matchup dozens of times in the last month, and I think I've improved. Are there any particular play patterns or cards you guys look for/avoid that aren't obvious? I try to stay away from cantrips and Duresses in game 1 and I avoid Ad Nauseam lines unless I can get it off turn 1 or 2 with mana floating and a substantial life total. I go for Tendrils every game if I can, and if not I aim for 12 or more goblins to punch through their ground team.
Burn is a difficult matchup because all of the Storm engines in the stock list aren't designed to take it into account, Empty the Warrens can lose on the ground if you don't play it by turn 2, Past in Flames is too slow vs aggro and Ad Nauseam is suicide so you should probably put a Diminishing Returns instead of a Telemin Performance in your SB since you're very likely to be able to win on T3 with it and as a bonus it's good vs Lands too.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
Burn is a difficult matchup because all of the Storm engines in the stock list aren't designed to take it into account, Empty the Warrens can lose on the ground if you don't play it by turn 2, Past in Flames is too slow vs aggro and Ad Nauseam is suicide so you should probably put a Diminishing Returns instead of a Telemin Performance in your SB since you're very likely to be able to win on T3 with it and as a bonus it's good vs Lands too.
I have an 80% win ratio against Burn in over 40 recorded matches. I wouldn't say it's a difficult matchup. Just need to learn how to mulligan aggressively and the strategy.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FavoredRevenant
....
I just maybe have lost 1 among 10 match ups played vs burn... well D.R. is good vs burn as F.F says... IGG in base plus Tendrils is faster than PiF and vs burn is irrelevant so thats an option too, CoV is good as also generates storm in the combo turn to tendrils them...
anyway i dont think all these things are needed vs burn.
what always will shock me is the way you all side vs burn - but anyway - I just take out 3 duress/2 ponder and put 2 decay 2 ET 1 bayou having then 1AN all GP total 13 lands still 1EtW. EDIT sure 4 CT
regarding the B.C, article: Nice article I have to say - even i understadn the decisions and context I just took other direction but hey! now I am at home and likely i am very optimistic
but I would have kept all the hands!!
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
So 3 MD Warrens was pretty interesting today online,
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
SB
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Telemin Performance
1 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Consign/Oblivion
3 Echoing Truth
2 Rending Volley
I stole a lot of games off the back of Warrens game 1, there wasn't really anybody playing Stifle so I opened up a lot of games just by pushing Goblins on them and then SBed out the extra Warrens for the pretty standard 7 discard package and just played the deck normally after that. I really like that manabase even tho' it doesn't have a basic to it, the off color fetchlands are a pretty interesting strategy because people see the off color fetchlands and just tap out for their 1 drops without thinking about Storm as a possibility.
I'm not going to really say this is the best list or anything, but I didn't have much problems with Ad Nauseam despite the extra copies of Warrens since I could just stop short and spit 20+ attackers on the board without worrying about them being able to sweep em game 1. It definitely looks viable tho', if you think you can take advantage of the meta being soft vs Warrens.
Had a lot of fun with this list lately and thinking to bring it at the locals next week. I tuned it a bit tho.
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Simian Spirit
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island
Of this list I really love how it could consistently drop 10 goblins on turn 1-2.
Another thing I like is that SSG doesnt use graveyard, its uncounterable and make fetching for basic island way better.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jax-
Had a lot of fun with this list lately and thinking to bring it at the locals next week. I tuned it a bit tho.
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Simian Spirit
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island
Of this list I really love how it could consistently drop 10 goblins on turn 1-2.
Another thing I like is that SSG doesnt use graveyard, its uncounterable and make fetching for basic island way better.
While this list is explosive, it's essentially Belcher with less lines. It's so focused on ETW it can't do anything else, which makes it easier to defeat.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
I have an 80% win ratio against Burn in over 40 recorded matches. I wouldn't say it's a difficult matchup. Just need to learn how to mulligan aggressively and the strategy.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply burn was an unfavourable match up, I meant Burn is a difficult match up because if they do manage to reach turn 3 then you have to learn how to play around the soft lock and Ad Nauseam/Past in Flames/Empty the Warrens don't give you easy lines at the health and time you need to close out the game if you had to bounce a Pillar of Flames etc.
I'm more concerned about the situations where the deck doesn't just goldfish a win vs aggro and has to deal with post-board hate.
@Jax
Yeah, I was never really serious about 3MD Warrens, I was just messing around with different ideas at the time and even tho' you will win a lot of really easy games G1 you're making your whole deck soft to Stifle and Flusterstorm.
I play a pretty conservative list usually.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jax-
Had a lot of fun with this list lately and thinking to bring it at the locals next week. I tuned it a bit tho.
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Simian Spirit
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island
Of this list I really love how it could consistently drop 10 goblins on turn 1-2.
Another thing I like is that SSG doesnt use graveyard, its uncounterable and make fetching for basic island way better.
If you're going this route, I don't think dropping Rite of Flame is correct. If you're trying to make goblins as early as possible, SSG is just netting you less storm and less tokens. If you're concerned about grave hate, the worst it's doing to you is making rite as good as SSG yet it still builds storm. Since you're trying to just spit out early Empties, do you even want basic island? Hands with an Empty and double SSG are going to make 4 less Goblins turn 1 than hands with Empty and double rite, I don't see how SSG could possibly be better than Rite here. I think you want to max out your Rites before adding any SSGs. I also don't think this list gains anything from playing basics.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr_D
If you're going this route, I don't think dropping Rite of Flame is correct. If you're trying to make goblins as early as possible, SSG is just netting you less storm and less tokens. If you're concerned about grave hate, the worst it's doing to you is making rite as good as SSG yet it still builds storm. Since you're trying to just spit out early Empties, do you even want basic island? Hands with an Empty and double SSG are going to make 4 less Goblins turn 1 than hands with Empty and double rite, I don't see how SSG could possibly be better than Rite here. I think you want to max out your Rites before adding any SSGs. I also don't think this list gains anything from playing basics.
If anything, he should've cut lands for the SSG's as explosive as this list is, you don't need to hit as many land drops. Each SSG is .5 lands.
Plus SSG pairs well with Rite of Flame.
As a back-up engine, I'd probably run Diminishing Returns (SB) and a fourth Chrome Mox.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Talking about stock list. Any way to make space for 1 board TS? MD Bayou?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
No reason to use a worse than Swamp land in the MD, since SB space isn't at a premium. 2nd Warrens or Swarms can all be cut for a Thoughtseize
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
This is to answer the people who are PMing me for a list,
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grape Shot
1 Dark Petition
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Thoughtseize
1 Consign/Oblivion
1 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapour
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
There's no "secret sauce," I just prefer the consistent land drops, additional Burning Wish targets and Diminishing Returns over Telemin Performance right now. I don't find Island, Badlands and Xantid Swarms to be reliable, sometimes the Island and Badlands cause mulligan issues that Underground Sea and Volcanic Island wouldn't and Xantid Swarm exposes the manabase vs Wasteland where Thoughtseize doesn't. I believe these things come down to personal experience, as all of the cards serve equivalent functions regardless of which cards you use.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
This is to answer the people who are PMing me for a list,
...
There's no "secret sauce," I just prefer the consistent land drops, additional Burning Wish targets and Diminishing Returns over Telemin Performance right now. I don't find Island, Badlands and Xantid Swarms to be reliable, sometimes the Island and Badlands cause mulligan issues that Underground Sea and Volcanic Island wouldn't and Xantid Swarm exposes the manabase vs Wasteland where Thoughtseize doesn't. I believe these things come down to personal experience, as all of the cards serve equivalent functions regardless of which cards you use.
@Jax
@Dr_D
I buy your list too! that is likely and sadly the 60 i would run with 13 lands... no sihty island and the option of Badlands/Swamp - but I would buy that basic! I would hate to play 3 B.W. or 2 C.M. One thing I thought long time ago was that really it is a shame to not to get the most of a card like CR now you play 8 fetch and likely adding a single C.R. instead of C.M. could be a good idea... but again you just loose speed...
I can say all master of the universe about TES thinks the same way...
Even we all by here seem to discuss and disagree to death the reallity is that Typical lists vary from +1/-1 on Discard/C.Mox/B.Wish/Land in base from ones to others... YES Mr. B/My dear Lemnear/F.F. that's why -among other reasons - I find funny sometimes disccusions/disagreements with you all and company - I forgot the name shit - TankDiscussionMinds - joke - well maybe you FF dont belong to that...
Mine just has always been the same - I could say is like -1 Land +1discard from typical list at its simplest... sad but true guys!
From SDT banning/Grixis/4CC era and now ShitMiracles era I've not varied too much but my staples have been Decay/ET and varying from SE/IoK/DoubleTendrils/D.R. Sure I can handle XS but when played again Silence Experiment was mostly the same problem - just diff. angles. so no much change... but I enjoy at the same time XS as silence!
the base just changed from -1GM-1Fetch... sad.
I really like as example changing my side! now I am toying with Infernal Contract! the other day as example i really like the way it worked for me...but there are also staples there...
Cards on te stack to test/try/funplay: Ground seal, DD (yees) because of next card: Act of Impulse! in 2nd games you just can add I.C/AoI then switch to grind UpTo2Lifes grindy mode!
i want to go back to my other pet deck DD with Conjurer's Bauble!!
Nobody ask for my list... snif... well done F.F.! someones just fall into oblivion... joke.
Please use proper capitalization and grammar in your posts. Thanks. -zilla
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
This is to answer the people who are PMing me for a list,
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grape Shot
1 Dark Petition
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Thoughtseize
1 Consign/Oblivion
1 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapour
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
There's no "secret sauce," I just prefer the consistent land drops, additional Burning Wish targets and Diminishing Returns over Telemin Performance right now. I don't find Island, Badlands and Xantid Swarms to be reliable, sometimes the Island and Badlands cause mulligan issues that Underground Sea and Volcanic Island wouldn't and Xantid Swarm exposes the manabase vs Wasteland where Thoughtseize doesn't. I believe these things come down to personal experience, as all of the cards serve equivalent functions regardless of which cards .
I think that Badlands is way better than Volc post board in a lot of MUs.
IMO the worst deck matchup right now is Grixis Delver and probably BUG. Cutting Island seems just wrong. With your list the only card you side in is TS, definetly worse than the 2nd EtW from stock list.
Also I really dislike tutorable answers, they are slow in matchups where you want to be as fast as possible. I really like tutorable win conditions so Telemin Performance is pretty good.
Xantid Swarm are not for wasteland decks but for S&T and Miracles, I don't think they are a flex slot right now, Miracles numbers are growing up because the deck is good and have a favourable Grixis Delver MU.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jax-
I think that Badlands is way better than Volc post board in a lot of MUs.
IMO the worst deck matchup right now is Grixis Delver and probably BUG. Cutting Island seems just wrong. With your list the only card you side in is TS, definetly worse than the 2nd EtW from stock list.
Also I really dislike tutorable answers, they are slow in matchups where you want to be as fast as possible. I really like tutorable win conditions so Telemin Performance is pretty good.
Xantid Swarm are not for wasteland decks but for S&T and Miracles, I don't think they are a flex slot right now, Miracles numbers are growing up because the deck is good and have a favourable Grixis Delver MU.
You're nitpicking the sideboard, running Xantid is not a necessity and the matchups you mentioned are perfectly winnable without it.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Hi!
I've been toying around with the idea of DD/AoI, and at its simplest there are some options:
beeing AoI and DD in side for 1st games:
the common pile is having AoI in main: BW,LED,LED,GP,AoI, you just need: Cantrip+2R then U,
the you can add more cantrips and/or IT to the equation and reduce mana costs: Ex.: Ponder+GP:, you just need: U! and the pile would be: BW,LED,LED,AoI,LED.
if these examples come from having AoI in base then you can use this strategy for 2nd and 3rd games, if not, then you have that path also but adding 1R to the mana cost.
then you can have a hand like Ponder,GP,BW,Petal,RoF,D.R,Land and landed land and win. this is just an example of scenario but there are lots more!
the important aspect is that you have lines with BW as a threat that do not go through GY/simetrical/LifeCost AND the manacosts just sometimes are ridiculous - you just can set up for DD with BW and just a GP + BBB2R is needed to win or BBBU with 1Cantrips+GP or BBBB1 with IT+GP...
One thing I like about AoI is that is perfectly castable and doesn't have impediments like IU or IC..., so adding 1 to the main even will increase speed.
well sure maybe this is nonsense... but i just like to try things to my inmutable TES deck... but having all these soo funny options at just the cost of 2 side slots... You know I'm very optimistic...
Opinions?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
Hi!
I've been toying around with the idea of DD/AoI, and at its simplest there are some options:
beeing AoI and DD in side for 1st games:
the common pile is having AoI in main: BW,LED,LED,GP,AoI, you just need: Cantrip+2R then U,
the you can add more cantrips and/or IT to the equation and reduce mana costs: Ex.: Ponder+GP:, you just need: U! and the pile would be: BW,LED,LED,AoI,LED.
if these examples come from having AoI in base then you can use this strategy for 2nd and 3rd games, if not, then you have that path also but adding 1R to the mana cost.
then you can have a hand like Ponder,GP,BW,Petal,RoF,D.R,Land and landed land and win. this is just an example of scenario but there are lots more!
the important aspect is that you have lines with BW as a threat that do not go through GY/simetrical/LifeCost AND the manacosts just sometimes are ridiculous - you just can set up for DD with BW and just a GP + BBB2R is needed to win or BBBU with 1Cantrips+GP or BBBB1 with IT+GP...
One thing I like about AoI is that is perfectly castable and doesn't have impediments like IU or IC..., so adding 1 to the main even will increase speed.
well sure maybe this is nonsense... but i just like to try things to my inmutable TES deck... but having all these soo funny options at just the cost of 2 side slots... You know I'm very optimistic...
Opinions?
I'd love for Doomsday to be playable in TES as I love the card and having an engine that gets around Teeg is very real. However, having to play AoI to support Doomsday is going to hurt the deck more than it will help it. It'll be neat to hear how your testing goes though.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr_D
I'd love for Doomsday to be playable in TES as I love the card and having an engine that gets around Teeg is very real. However, having to play AoI to support Doomsday is going to hurt the deck more than it will help it. It'll be neat to hear how your testing goes though.
Yesterday was the 1st testing... but not much testing was done only a 4 round tournament and needed to go out on 3rd round.
it was 1CullingTheWeak round which I won, an AN deck which I lost and a 4C Control deck which I won.
it is in deed sad to say that the 2 slots I cut were 2 IoK which vs AN would have helped. I just sided vs AN 1 AoI and nothing else but was too much optimistic about the match up as I usually win with no effort - I dropped 12 Gobs OtP 1st turn hoping to not to loose on his 2nd turn and having the option to draw IT/BW/cantrip into discard or discard itself in the meantime. the 2nd game was just a 1st turn win from his side. sad.
I just have 2AD 2ET and 2IoK/Surgical/Extirpate/Xantid/MoreTendrils/MoreEtW/ etc available slots. In deed DP in my side has not been doing a good job for me lately - it is likely the less used slot which I sometimes change for other cards like DR, etc. so maybe adding 1 IoK for the DP can help.
The plan I have with DD/AoI is just to side AoI for a EtW and 1 CM for 1 Bayou vs general Control decks but really didn't do this vs 4CC what I made vs 4CC was -2Ponder-1CM=+1AD+1Bayou+1AoI - next I realized that the plan to setup a pile for leovold was nonsense... so maybe just -1ponder is ok. I really dislike taking out ponder when I side in AoI for obvious reasons, then having the option to just side it in for the EtW seems correct for example vs miracles. and also vs Combo/Even agro like Grixis (EtW stays vs Grixis).
I play magic from time to time and legacy is not a promoted format by here... so really do not have access to real tests. but hey! I just play mtg to spend a good time! Would be good If someone dares to test this... I find sad that no much paths are explored and when AoI was released I really found tons of options on the stack to be tested... I wonder why PiF base was tested but not this option as I saw cleat PiF an error... likely this DD is also an error but I expose the fact that 1 has been tested and the other didn't.
just out of cusriosity: I used to play TNT deck long time ago and a new card was spoled: Ubuntu the last recoking - like a Damnation by 3 mana. In TNT I believe it is great, I really do not know how good it could be in TES but this card just destroy ALL creatures by 3 mana - ths is something that at some point I'd like to test.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jax-
I think that Badlands is way better than Volc post board in a lot of MUs.
IMO the worst deck matchup right now is Grixis Delver and probably BUG. Cutting Island seems just wrong. With your list the only card you side in is TS, definetly worse than the 2nd EtW from stock list.
Also I really dislike tutorable answers, they are slow in matchups where you want to be as fast as possible. I really like tutorable win conditions so Telemin Performance is pretty good.
Xantid Swarm are not for wasteland decks but for S&T and Miracles, I don't think they are a flex slot right now, Miracles numbers are growing up because the deck is good and have a favourable Grixis Delver MU.
I imagine Badlands is better than Volcanic Island post-board if you have to SB in Abrupt Decay, but generally speaking Chain of Vapour is enough vs D&T and its ilk and Miracles won't put your manabase under pressure so we're talking about Eldrazi then?
Multiple Empty the Warrens can work against you just as much as they can work for you, if they MD Stifle or SB Flusterstorm I'd rather not consign myself to one line of play.
Xantid Swarm is only good against Miracles and Show&Tell tho', where discard is universally good across the board. I think Bayou and Abrupt Decay are already a big concession to Miracles as it is.
Massacre is pretty fast as far as hate goes, it'll clear their Ethersworn Cannonist along with their clock most of the time. Consign/Oblivion might be slow, but it stops them from just mulling into Chalice of the Void or Leyline of Sanctity.
I think Telemin Performance and Diminishing Returns basically serve the same functions in the deck, I generally switch between the two in the SB and Dark Petition, Infernal Tutor and the 3rd Duress between the SB and MD - these are really minor tweaks.
I'm pretty sure Island is just stretching the manabase, its two less fetchlands for Swamp and Bayou and it gets increasingly worse post-board. For me it's a bit inconsistent to argue for Badlands over Volcanic Island with the post-board argument but give Island a pass when its an order of magnitude more restrictive. There is a lot to be said for consistent mulligans, color access and 9 ways to a Swamp.
But regardless we are all our own judges in the end, so do whatever gets you results.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Great content as always. Your website is an absolute treasure.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Polski_
Thanks for another great article!
I think I have found an alternative line for game two in your example, why not play:
LED -> Chain on LED, copy by saccing volcanic, target his lotus petal. This forces the opponent to make a decision, and regardless of choosing rotating for bog or making a 20/20 you are free to play
Mire, fetch badlands, rite, rite, rite, led again, wish crack led, get dark petition, tutor, tendrils for the kill if he played crop rotation, otherwise you need to go for a pif loop to get to 10 storm.
Or am I missing some crucial thing here?
Edit: I've faced turbo depths decks playing maindeck Tabernacle, so empty the warrens could be a very risky line to take.
Edit2: I did miss something crucial, opp has spirit guide in hand to pay for crop rotation. My line is just bad then. Move along, nothing to see here.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Klirre
Thanks for another great article!
I think I have found an alternative line for game two in your example, why not play:
LED -> Chain on LED, copy by saccing volcanic, target his lotus petal. This forces the opponent to make a decision, and regardless of choosing rotating for bog or making a 20/20 you are free to play
Mire, fetch badlands, rite, rite, rite, led again, wish crack led, get dark petition, tutor, tendrils for the kill if he played crop rotation, otherwise you need to go for a pif loop to get to 10 storm.
Or am I missing some crucial thing here?
Edit: I've faced turbo depths decks playing maindeck Tabernacle, so empty the warrens could be a very risky line to take.
Edit2: I did miss something crucial, opp has spirit guide in hand to pay for crop rotation. My line is just bad then. Move along, nothing to see here.
New TES player, but very experienced depths player here. 95% of lists don't run tabernacle in the 75. Remember, Depths is still a quasi-budget deck and tabernacle doesn't really synergize with our gameplan. What you should be aware of is golgari charm/deluge.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jdmdave
New TES player, but very experienced depths player here. 95% of lists don't run tabernacle in the 75. Remember, Depths is still a quasi-budget deck and tabernacle doesn't really synergize with our gameplan. What you should be aware of is golgari charm/deluge.
Interesting info, thanks!
I suppose I'm still a new TES player too, I've had the deck for a long time but I rarely get the chance to play. I've played vs depths on modo one time, don't remember if I saw Tabernacle then. But I do know my local meta has a guy playing it in the maindeck.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I've been having a miserable time on MODO today, I've gone 2-8 against all prison decks and decks packing hard answers in the main. I've been doing pretty well up until late, and the planets just seem to be aligning not in my favor. I'm usually going 3-2 or 4-1 except for the string of leagues today.
My list is the previous list that Bryant Cook 5-0'd with, I was wondering if the Echoing Truths he brought to Worcester is a better slot in the side compared to the third Decay.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
long time I don't post here. but hey! I have to have a reason!
nice to see in a event as worcester 2 TES list - the AJ Kerrigan list seems curious about the no PiF side slot. I would cut other slots but 1 thing I have to clear is that 4th therapy belongs to the 75 without a doubt. nice to see that.
Long time ago I cut Dark Petition but still leave PiF. I can say for me at least the only 2 reasons why I keep PiF side is that
a) it provides me a way to comfortably win If I need to pass the turn post A.N.
b) involves side strategy of 1ET to take it vs Leyline.
for me a) is key but maybe just does not worth..
however I recognize that I don't use it very often due to SE from side or everywhere DRS. sure sometimes you reach a bord of no DRS and beeing dicarded. not too often...
just a question to AJ if he is by here. do you use DP enough to worth it? I just used it to +1storm for EtW which is not enough for me...
if interested now I am at 2 Extirpate - I think they are fine. still 3GM not sre If Ill go back to 4 again... and same as always.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
My report from last weekend! I plan on swapping out the twitch embeds for youtube once SCG uploads the videos.
Enjoy!
http://theepicstorm.com/scg-worceste...-04-2018-16th/
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
It has been some time since I last played Legacy and after two to three leagues on Magic Online with ANT, I was sick of casting cantrip after cantrip and took TES for a spin. I took the latest list (I think you called it 4.1 in the video regarding SCG Worcester) and played it through some leagues. After some matches I figured out, why you had three Empty the Warrens in the sideboard and just how you described my win rate against Delver decks went up. I think I haven't lost a match against Delver since I started to bring in two additional copies of Empty the Warrens. Though I board differently than the plans you described in the video. I take out 1 Chrome Mox, 1 Infernal Tutor, 3 Duress and bring in 1 Bayou, 2 Xantid Swarm and 2 Empty the Warrens. I thought playing Swarm on turn one allows me to get around all those softcounters (Daze, Pierce, Flusterstorm) they play against us. I have no fucking clue wether that is wrong or right, but it worked for me thus far. But glad to hear your thoughts on it. I will give it a try in my upcoming leagues.
I have some questions regarding your thoughts on your current list. I am almost sure that some of them are being covered on your site or previously in this thread, but I don't have the time to read up two years worth of information, therefor it would be really nice if you could answer me here:
- Whenever I want to be fast and I bring in Tendrils of Agony for Empty the Warrens, I also board out 1 Infernal Tutor to be able to go for Wish -> Infernal -> Tendrils. In your experience, is this line always covered by the Dark Petition in the board?
- Why is the Basic Island in the main? I am playing the old manabase of 8 Fetch, 2 Usea, 1 Volcanic, 1 Swamp, 1 Badlands and I haven't had a match so far, where I wanted to fetch for it. Isn't it almost always better to have the Usea to be able to cast cantrip on turn 1 and a Discard spell/Dark Ritual off it on turn 2?
- In your SCG Worcester video, you described your boarding against Miracles and you explained that you take out 4 Ponder. I never thought about taking out Ponder. Are there any other matchups, where you also touch them? Thinking about it, it might make sense against Blood Moon/Stompy decks, since you also want to be fast and you can get their lock pieces with Discard spells.
- It seems to me, that there are a lot of matchups, where you want to be fast at the moment (Miracles, Chalice decks, Mirror, Turbo Depths). Could the second Ad Nauseam be good in the sideboard to bring it in in those matchups?
Anyway I am having a lot of fun with the deck, figuring out what to do in certain matchups and I just wanted to say thank you for putting up all these resources.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
flrn
It has been some time since I last played Legacy and after two to three leagues on Magic Online with ANT, I was sick of casting cantrip after cantrip and took TES for a spin. I took the latest list (I think you called it 4.1 in the video regarding SCG Worcester) and played it through some leagues. After some matches I figured out, why you had three Empty the Warrens in the sideboard and just how you described my win rate against Delver decks went up. I think I haven't lost a match against Delver since I started to bring in two additional copies of Empty the Warrens. Though I board differently than the plans you described in the video. I take out 1 Chrome Mox, 1 Infernal Tutor, 3 Duress and bring in 1 Bayou, 2 Xantid Swarm and 2 Empty the Warrens. I thought playing Swarm on turn one allows me to get around all those softcounters (Daze, Pierce, Flusterstorm) they play against us. I have no fucking clue wether that is wrong or right, but it worked for me thus far. But glad to hear your thoughts on it. I will give it a try in my upcoming leagues.
I have some questions regarding your thoughts on your current list. I am almost sure that some of them are being covered on your site or previously in this thread, but I don't have the time to read up two years worth of information, therefor it would be really nice if you could answer me here:
- Whenever I want to be fast and I bring in Tendrils of Agony for Empty the Warrens, I also board out 1 Infernal Tutor to be able to go for Wish -> Infernal -> Tendrils. In your experience, is this line always covered by the Dark Petition in the board?
- Why is the Basic Island in the main? I am playing the old manabase of 8 Fetch, 2 Usea, 1 Volcanic, 1 Swamp, 1 Badlands and I haven't had a match so far, where I wanted to fetch for it. Isn't it almost always better to have the Usea to be able to cast cantrip on turn 1 and a Discard spell/Dark Ritual off it on turn 2?
- In your SCG Worcester video, you described your boarding against Miracles and you explained that you take out 4 Ponder. I never thought about taking out Ponder. Are there any other matchups, where you also touch them? Thinking about it, it might make sense against Blood Moon/Stompy decks, since you also want to be fast and you can get their lock pieces with Discard spells.
- It seems to me, that there are a lot of matchups, where you want to be fast at the moment (Miracles, Chalice decks, Mirror, Turbo Depths). Could the second Ad Nauseam be good in the sideboard to bring it in in those matchups?
Anyway I am having a lot of fun with the deck, figuring out what to do in certain matchups and I just wanted to say thank you for putting up all these resources.
Luckily for you Bryant has done an excellent job outlying answers to your questions on the website in an organized fashion that it won't take you very long to find them.
In regards to your Ponder questions and other sideboarding decisions that we make and why there is an extensive guide right here -
https://theepicstorm.com/sideboard-guide/
To help answer your questions about specifics main deck choices like the basic island there is also a convenient section for that here -
https://theepicstorm.com/card-choices/
All of the information youre looking for is neatly categorized for easy filtering. Hopefully this answers your questions. If there are any further questions after reading through these we will all gladly help.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
New TES Matchup Battles - Eldrazi
https://theepicstorm.com/tes-matchup-battles-eldrazi/
Thanks for reading!
- Alex Poling
