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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WashableWater1
I've never understood this mindset. If you have one tutorable beater (Stoneforge or 1 Crusader or a Flickerwisp) then why does having another threat that is not tutorable a factor?
Drawing Crusader early can be a problem. If they deal with him, I have no other way to find an Avenger than to lucksack into one. If I draw Avenger early, I'm fine because my other beater is tutorable.
Applying a meaningful amount of pressure in a certain window of time is often the way to win, and not doing a substantial amount of damage in that window can definitely lead to a loss, so I would love another playable beater with flying that can be tutored for via RotG. I don't care if they can bolt it.
Edit: sorry for the double-post. I spaced the earlier post, it's a busy, stressful day.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
Drawing Crusader early can be a problem. If they deal with him, I have no other way to find an Avenger than to lucksack into one. If I draw Avenger early, I'm fine because my other beater is tutorable.
Applying a meaningful amount of pressure in a certain window of time is often the way to win, and not doing a substantial amount of damage in that window can definitely lead to a loss, so I would love another playable beater with flying that can be tutored for via RotG. I don't care if they can bolt it.
Edit: sorry for the double-post. I spaced the earlier post, it's a busy, stressful day.
Flickerwisp and Stoneforge both fill that role
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I get that they have ways of functioning that can be construed as beats, but flickerwisp is super fragile and stoneforge is really slow. Also, I'm already playing 4 of each, so unless one of them has a functional reprint, it's no help to say that.
I want a 3/2 flyer that is better than stonecloaker. There.
Edit: I'd take a 4/1 flyer even, and I'd take something that costs 4, but only ww in the cost, no triple color requirement though.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
I want a 3/2 flyer that is better than stonecloaker.
I've heard Delver of Secrets is pretty good.
Seriously though, if you're looking for tutorable beats (i.e. you have Recruiter in play or in hand), why NOT get Flickerwisp? Yes 1 toughness is not ideal, but Recruiter means multiple additional Flickerwisps. Tempo may be an issue but they've got to run out of removal at some point if you keep chaining 'wisps off Recruiter.
On the other hand, your hypothetical 3/2 still dies to P.Fire, Push, Bolt, Decay, Swords, Path, Lavamancer, Massacre, and Delver and can't be easily augmented with additional copies via Recruiter.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
I get that they have ways of functioning that can be construed as beats, but flickerwisp is super fragile and stoneforge is really slow. Also, I'm already playing 4 of each, so unless one of them has a functional reprint, it's no help to say that.
I want a 3/2 flyer that is better than stonecloaker. There.
Edit: I'd take a 4/1 flyer even, and I'd take something that costs 4, but only ww in the cost, no triple color requirement though.
why dont you play just more copies of avenger, so that you dont have to recruiter for them? I play a build with 4 avenger, 4 flicker, 4 stoneforge, 1 crusader, 4 revoker, 2 spirit of the labyrinth main and 3 canonist side. But no recruiters. In that build, if i would draw a recruiter, i often wouldnt know what to tutor for exept for flicker loop. But i play enough flyers and beaters anyways. The only downside of that build is that you dont have the additional card advantage of recruiter. But i miss it only in very few games. Often i dont need the card advatage, because my beaters are better than true names or anglers etc... Because i draw so many of them. Its ok for me, if my opponent draws more cards than me, but he cant beat my avengers/flickers/crusader/equ. anyways.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I've been thinking about creatures that can replace Crusader and Serra Avenger. One creature I have my mind on is this: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=369098
Basically he has pseudo hexproof for black, red, and green; it gets hit by Swords to Plowshares so it's bad in the mirror but quite good against other midrange decks. Being indestructible is nice for Jitte combat and makes him a great defender against Goyfs and Angler. Four mana can be an issue if you don't play sol lands. Dies to most -/- boardwipes but can actually be good against things like pyroclasm. Wish he had vigilance though.
It doesn't die to TNN which is nice but the only real way to deal with that card isn't running a bunch of flyers but to run things like Orzhov Pontiff and Magus to shut off double blue mana.
Overall, I'm not optimistic but I'm willing to test it out in a few key match-ups. Let the ridicule commence.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Don't do it, bro. Let's just keep waiting. I've looked a lot specifically (since the printing of Recruiter) for the best tutor target with flying. So far it's Flickerwisp, and I do chain them when I can, but now that Terminus isn't the most played board wipe any more, it's not nearly as strong as it once was.
I guess maybe I'm looking for a replacement for Spirit of the Labyrinth. I just want two tutorable beaters that are good in different matchups. I'll drop the Spirit for Angel #3 when I get the chance to, to see if quantity is a reasonable substitute for being able to tutor for it as needed.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
He also gets hit by Karakas in the mirror. For a 4 drop to be playable in legacy, it pretty much has to be game ending. Something like Tajic is gonna be a pretty solid card when you get it on the board, but it doesn't come with the same card advantage that cards like Pia/Kiran and Palace Jailer do. I generally don't mind ticking a Vial to 4 to get those guys out because it's hard to lose after they get going. Whereas Tajic can be ignored or chump blocked when you can afford to make those alpha strikes - and you generally can't.
It would be cool if they printed some pushed RW legendary creatures, but I don't think this guy is one. He didn't see Standard play. He was pretty solid for me in a limited game once...
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
I've used it in Modern as a 1 of, flash fliers are very nice, also saving a dude randomly is pretty cool too.
:tongue:
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
It's fine, but requires another critter in play. That is a major problem in my opinion.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
He also gets hit by Karakas in the mirror. For a 4 drop to be playable in legacy, it pretty much has to be game ending. Something like Tajic is gonna be a pretty solid card when you get it on the board, but it doesn't come with the same card advantage that cards like Pia/Kiran and Palace Jailer do. I generally don't mind ticking a Vial to 4 to get those guys out because it's hard to lose after they get going. Whereas Tajic can be ignored or chump blocked when you can afford to make those alpha strikes - and you generally can't.
It would be cool if they printed some pushed RW legendary creatures, but I don't think this guy is one. He didn't see Standard play. He was pretty solid for me in a limited game once...
I love Pia/Kiran but it requires too much dedication to the red splash; for similar reasons, I don't put cards like Sudden Demise in the sideboard. I liked Palace Jailer until I played with Dark Confidants, which just puts it to shame.
Another card I thought of was Restoration Angel. Dodges lightning bolt cards (e.g don't forget about forked bolt and Kolaghan's Command) and abrupt decay. Can often dodge a fatal push. Being 4 toughness makes it very resilient to all forms of common boardwipes. It's an angel but a single white requirement and Sol Lands mean it's often a turn 3 play. Not as versatile as Flickerwisp when it comes to flicking things but it's a far better blocker netting you card advantage against Delver and creature decks. It has the same level of potential in saving your creatures. Has the essential 3 power to race TNN if necessary. Still combos with recruiter and stoneforge mystic. Oh and flash... so it's consistently good even without aether vial.
You can't recruit it but you know, we can't have everything in life.
I feel very optimistic about testing Restoration Angel :smile:
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
He also gets hit by Karakas in the mirror.
Indeed, if I am going to play a beater that is Karakas-able, it'd probably be Brimaz, King Of Oreskos, but obviously that guy has other downsides too.
Like Resto, he has a lot of upsides versus Bolts (and P. Fires), but certainly not so great versus Decay.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
grayryker
You can't recruit it but you know, we can't have everything in life.
That attitude in legacy won't get you far. My feeling after playing for almost two decades is that you can, it just depends on how long you are willing to wait for it. The white recruiter is my case in point. That's why I said wait. I'm going to try a black and taxes build sometime, also.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Well, we can have everything because Wizards prints a bizarrely large quantity of new cards for DnT. Like I'm sure they'll give us a Rest in Peace bear one day, which will be sweet. Someone at WotC is probably gonna read this - please give us one Rest in Peace + bear. That's all. Easy design. Maybe it should be legendary too. Let me know if you have any questions.
P.S. Don't make it 3 mana.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
P.S. Don't make it 3 mana.
Monkey's Paw there, you failed to say "and definitely don't make it 4."
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
Do we just not talk about how this card is some dude blowing a gargoyle?
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Colin
Do we just not talk about how this card is some dude blowing a gargoyle?
First rule of talking about Stonecloaker is "you don't talk about Stonecloaker's art."
Second rule of talking about Stonecloaker is "you don't talk about Stonecloaker's art."
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
First rule of talking about Stonecloaker is "you don't talk about Stonecloaker's art."
Second rule of talking about Stonecloaker is "you don't talk about Stonecloaker's art."
Wow I just looked at the card a bit closer... what the hell? :confused:
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
That attitude in legacy won't get you far. My feeling after playing for almost two decades is that you can, it just depends on how long you are willing to wait for it. The white recruiter is my case in point. That's why I said wait. I'm going to try a black and taxes build sometime, also.
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No but what I'm saying is legitimate. If restoration angel had 2 toughness making it recruitable, it would be a significantly worse card. Even serra avenger might be arguably worse if it had one less toughness.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Hello everyone. I'm playing w/b version now with 2 Orzhov Pontiff (1 main 1 side) and 3 Perish in side. It's good answer with Elves (many in my meta), also it kills deathrite, leovold, tarmogoyf. Besides, i'm testing Judge's Familiar in main. For my point of view, it's very interesting creature and can upgrade many matches, especially fast combo.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sardukar
Hello everyone. I'm playing w/b version now with 2 Orzhov Pontiff (1 main 1 side) and 3 Perish in side. It's good answer with Elves (many in my meta), also it kills deathrite, leovold, tarmogoyf. Besides, i'm testing Judge's Familiar in main. For my point of view, it's very interesting creature and can upgrade many matches, especially fast combo.
I tested Judge's Familiar for a while and it wasn't great. In the fair matches, they'll play around it so you have a useless creature (at least without equipment) on the field that's too slow to clock anything. I don't know how heavily you are invested in the black splash but I'd rather play Thoughtseize against combo.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Not heavy really that's why i cant play black spell on 1st turn. Btw, familiar always greAt first drop and amazing comes from vial) can counter fast hymn or removal and it's synergy with thalia/vryn on table.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Lately I have been playing more and more against Food Chain decks. It is not a bad matchup, but I would like to know if there is a supergood card vs this deck that I havent seen before. The decks I play against play btw like 4xHymn and some Toxic Deluges in the side.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Prelate on 3, Revoker on ballista, Mom. That's been my approach.
I think it can easily be a poor matchup. I don't do well against it with this deck very often.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Farone
Lately I have been playing more and more against Food Chain decks. It is not a bad matchup, but I would like to know if there is a supergood card vs this deck that I havent seen before. The decks I play against play btw like 4xHymn and some Toxic Deluges in the side.
I don't think it's a good match for us because they have so many ways to wipe our board. They also run Golgari Charm and Ballista so yeah.
I think the best counter is to go Magus of the Moon. You shut off so many cards in their deck - especially their board wipes - that I think it is the best proactive solution. Their mana base is not great. Deathrite shaman you can stop with Revokers, Swords to Plowshares, etc.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Good food chain players fetch basics a lot, the deck plays ~4; 2 island, 1 Swamp, 1 forest, generally. I don't think that play is as strong as you think it is.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
Good food chain players fetch basics a lot, the deck plays ~4; 2 island, 1 Swamp, 1 forest, generally. I don't think that play is as strong as you think it is.
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Most players are not aware you're running Magus so they usually fetch a dual in order to cast all their spells. But more importantly, many of their spells are dual color in different combinations (e.g baleful strix vs golgari charm vs hymn to tourarch). This is what I mean by a greedy mana base.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
A recent but past teammate of mine as well as .dk here on the source always seem to make it a point to get multiple basics as fast as possible since no matter what version of DnT you play, you always have ways of attacking the mana base. Believe what you will, good pilots of the deck know that it's a grindy matchup and will always do their best to make it difficult for you to attack their mana, and that includes nullifying wasteland as a meaningful interaction, which in turn limits the Moon effect.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
A recent but past teammate of mine as well as .dk here on the source always seem to make it a point to get multiple basics as fast as possible since no matter what version of DnT you play, you always have ways of attacking the mana base. Believe what you will, good pilots of the deck know that it's a grindy matchup and will always do their best to make it difficult for you to attack their mana, and that includes nullifying wasteland as a meaningful interaction, which in turn limits the Moon effect.
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Yes true most good players once they realize they're playing against DnT they will try to minimize Wasteland effects. That's actually one big reason I am deviating from the land denial plan with 4 wasteland 4 port. That's not as relevant here because FoodChain uses a ton of multicolored cards. Shutting off 1-2 colors is huge. I've seen blood moon destroy old Miracles often and that deck isn't exactly color intensive or basics-deficient.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I don't really care to discuss the blowouts of mediocre players making incorrect sideboarding choices that end up in a lucky situation, so I'll leave the conversation at that.
There were a BUNCH of mediocre miracles players. I was one every now and then.
Do as you please, my friend.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
I don't really care to discuss the blowouts of mediocre players making incorrect sideboarding choices that end up in a lucky situation, so I'll leave the conversation at that.
There were a BUNCH of mediocre miracles players. I was one every now and then.
Do as you please, my friend.
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It is not simply a matter of mediocrity but a matter of probability, drawing a particular sequence of lands and needing to play color intensive cards. I don't think this is difficult to understand...
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
grayryker
It is not simply a matter of mediocrity but a matter of probability, drawing a particular sequence of lands and needing to play color intensive cards. I don't think this is difficult to understand...
What color intensive cards? It doesn't stop the ones that matter, such as the combo kill, and if they really need to they can ballista it away. Basically, you're saying the best card you can have is a 3 drop that has a chance to cut them off one color assuming you have the answer to Deathrite. If you aren't on the play, it can come down once they have the ability to fetch for 3 basics and now does very little.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WashableWater1
What color intensive cards? It doesn't stop the ones that matter, such as the combo kill, and if they really need to they can ballista it away. Basically, you're saying the best card you can have is a 3 drop that has a chance to cut them off one color assuming you have the answer to Deathrite. If you aren't on the play, it can come down once they have the ability to fetch for 3 basics and now does very little.
I never said Magus is the best card here... I said it's the best counter to the boardwipes in addition to shutting off their color intensive creatures. Their deck can't afford to fetch a basic every single time without a Shaman to pull double duty. The 'best' cards here will be Revoker and Prelate on 2/3. Overall, not a good match-up at all.
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Edit: Never mind, don't want to egg this on...
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I want to note that fetching lots of basics is not always the way to go for your opponents. I have had this discussion a number of times.
On Grixis, if I G.Probe my D+T opponent, spot two Wastelands and a Karakas, and I am holding four lands, I am happy to play this game. I am happy to fetch duals with the expectation that I might run D+T out of lands in hand. There is no way I am fetching basics. On that same note, Ports throw the whole math of when to fetch basics into disarray. If I am on D+T, and have a hand of Ports, I want my opponent fetching basics.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
I want to note that fetching lots of basics is not always the way to go for your opponents. I have had this discussion a number of times.
On Grixis, if I G.Probe my D+T opponent, spot two Wastelands and a Karakas, and I am holding four lands, I am happy to play this game. I am happy to fetch duals with the expectation that I might run D+T out of lands in hand. There is no way I am fetching basics. On that same note, Ports throw the whole math of when to fetch basics into disarray. If I am on D+T, and have a hand of Ports, I want my opponent fetching basics.
I think some of us understand this, and its a solid point in that discussion, but we were discussing specifically the BUG Food Chain matchup. Grixis tempo is definitely a different beast.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
I think some of us understand this, and its a solid point in that discussion, but we were discussing specifically the BUG Food Chain matchup. Grixis tempo is definitely a different beast.
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Sure. Grixis was my example. The same ideas float to BUG and essentially all of the greedy manabases. BUG makes this relationship even more interesting and calculation-intensive because they have a touch fewer lands total and Deathrite Shaman. DRS hates Ports and loves Wasteland so choose wisely.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I'm a little confused. They both play DRS, but one list plays 4 basics. The lowest land count I've seen in food chain is 19, the same as Grixis Delver (or are we talking pyromancer builds?), except delver plays 4 wasteland in that 19. Food chain seems a LOT less greedy than Grixis, and especially so compared to builds with Trop.
I agree it is possible to mess them up with ports if they go basics, and with wasteland if duals, but you have to have those draws and they have to make the accommodating plays for the draw to be effective.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I've been testing both mono white DnT and the stompy Mardu DnT and my thoughts:
(1) Mirran Crusader is worse than Thalia HC in most match-ups right now. I'm making the comparison because they're both great against the 3-color Delver decks. Though they're both easy to kill, Thalia buys you a lot of time because these Delver decks depend heavily on fetchlands. I've been able to slow down opposing decks 2-4 turns. Being 3 power first strike makes her good enough to pair her against opposing Tarmogoyfs and Angler with a sword active. Crusader is the better card against Sultai and some 4 color control variants but overall, Thalia has won me more games a wider variety of match-ups.
(2) I added 1 more sol land (City of Traitor) in addition to the 4 Ancient Tomb. I've been appreciating their power that much. I find their power level is phenomenal when you're playing against Daze decks (combined with 4 Cavern, your whole deck is counter-proof many games). In addition, I added back 4 Chalice of the Void in the side for a turn 1 interaction against combo decks; ironically, I find Chalice to be better than Mother of Runes or Swords to Plowshares against some fair matches (e.g RUG Delver).
The Sol Lands were also great with the 2 Phyrexian Revoker in the main, making it playable turn 1. Have I been missing Wasteland and Port? Well even with Vial on the field, I didn't find they were relevant at least 60% of the time (rough estimate). I actually tested 3-4 Wasteland in the Mardu build but it just wasn't necessary except maybe to slow down Lands for a turn or two. However, the 2 Karakas I tested were great. I drew them just often enough to have some additional power against Reanimator and Show and Tell.
(3) Replaced Batterskull with Swords of Light and Shadow. I just wanted better cards against things like Angler and Baleful Strix. Because the deck is fueled by Sol Lands that can play a Swords by turn 3, the Swords of LaS has better synergy than Batterskull here. This does make Abrupt Decay better against us but I'll just have to see.
(4) Love the 3/3 Confidant/Mystic split. No more terrible multiples drawn and I seem them almost as often. They're usually late-game cards anyways so I appreciate the 2 extra slots for combo hate in the main. Confidant is basically a superior Palace Jailer for 2-mana and will win you many games on its own. I don't think 3 Mystic is necessary in a mono white build but the 1 extra slot could easily be a Canonist or a Revoker in the main.
Orzhov Pontiff and Magus are just insane against TNN and Delver decks. I also love Magus against Lands, which is unfavorable match-up for us (imo).
(5) Don't think 4 Swords to Plowshares is necessary in the main. Yes best removal in Legacy... but turns out it's just dead in too many match-ups. I even side it out frequently in the fair match-ups for something like Chalice of the Void and Council's Judgment. I'm playing 3 and only because I'm respecting the danger of Deathrite Shamans and creature based combo decks.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
grayryker
I've been testing both mono white DnT and the stompy Mardu DnT and my thoughts:
(1) Mirran Crusader is worse than Thalia HC in most match-ups right now. I'm making the comparison because they're both great against the 3-color Delver decks. Though they're both easy to kill, Thalia buys you a lot of time because these Delver decks depend heavily on fetchlands. I've been able to slow down opposing decks 2-4 turns. Being 3 power first strike makes her good enough to pair her against opposing Tarmogoyfs and Angler with a sword active. Crusader is the better card against Sultai and some 4 color control variants but overall, Thalia has won me more games a wider variety of match-ups.
(2) I added 1 more sol land (City of Traitor) in addition to the 4 Ancient Tomb. I've been appreciating their power that much. I find their power level is phenomenal when you're playing against Daze decks (combined with 4 Cavern, your whole deck is counter-proof many games). In addition, I added back 4 Chalice of the Void in the side for a turn 1 interaction against combo decks; ironically, I find Chalice to be better than Mother of Runes or Swords to Plowshares against some fair matches (e.g RUG Delver).
The Sol Lands were also great with the 2 Phyrexian Revoker in the main, making it playable turn 1. Have I been missing Wasteland and Port? Well even with Vial on the field, I didn't find they were relevant at least 60% of the time (rough estimate). I actually tested 3-4 Wasteland in the Mardu build but it just wasn't necessary except maybe to slow down Lands for a turn or two. However, the 2 Karakas I tested were great. I drew them just often enough to have some additional power against Reanimator and Show and Tell.
(3) Replaced Batterskull with Swords of Light and Shadow. I just wanted better cards against things like Angler and Baleful Strix. Because the deck is fueled by Sol Lands that can play a Swords by turn 3, the Swords of LaS has better synergy than Batterskull here. This does make Abrupt Decay better against us but I'll just have to see.
(4) Love the 3/3 Confidant/Mystic split. No more terrible multiples drawn and I seem them almost as often. They're usually late-game cards anyways so I appreciate the 2 extra slots for combo hate in the main. Confidant is basically a superior Palace Jailer for 2-mana and will win you many games on its own. I don't think 3 Mystic is necessary in a mono white build but the 1 extra slot could easily be a Canonist or a Revoker in the main.
Orzhov Pontiff and Magus are just insane against TNN and Delver decks. I also love Magus against Lands, which is unfavorable match-up for us (imo).
(5) Don't think 4 Swords to Plowshares is necessary in the main. Yes best removal in Legacy... but turns out it's just dead in too many match-ups. I even side it out frequently in the fair match-ups for something like Chalice of the Void and Council's Judgment. I'm playing 3 and only because I'm respecting the danger of Deathrite Shamans and creature based combo decks.
Have you got a list for your mardu list? I've been testing the list from the mtggoldfish 'This Week in Legacy' article ~1 month ago. I really like it, but found it heavy on the 3 drops. I agree with you completely on Thalia HC, found her to be much more impactful than Mirran Crusader (not to downplay MC, it still has its benefits). Can't believe I didn't think of Dark Confidants before...
