Nice results versus Storm, bearing in mind you play Zoo. That was thanks to Thalia, or your opponents just failing?
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Nice results versus Storm, bearing in mind you play Zoo. That was thanks to Thalia, or your opponents just failing?
A healthy amount of both :D thalia gives just enough edge to get there, and 4 gaddock's after board is good too. I think that I could have done with 1 less thalia or teeg and made some room for qasali pridemages though. Esper is a popular matchup and without artifact hate it is too hard. Between the matchups I had, I felt like MUD was pretty much unwinnable with my decklist unless they got a crap draw, show and tell is next to impossible without knight/karakas, and Jund and esper just beat me in fair fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by crow_mw
I played Zoo last night and was very pleased - went 3-0-1 (would have been 4-0 if I didn't go to time against goblins). Ranger of Eos is great imho. Played a 1 of in the board but think he belongs in the main, maybe even two. Here's the list I'm brewing:
Creatures: 20
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Ranger of Eos
Burn/Removal: 16
4 Bolt
4 Chain
4 Helix
4 Path
Other: 3
2 Library
1 Jitte
Lands: 21
3 Basics
11 Fetches
7 Duals
Board:
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Pyroblast
3 Gaddock Teeg or Thalia
I'm still debating other board slots but think these 9 should be in there. Here are other options: Chant, Grip/Grudge, Crypt, Jitte, Boros Charm (saves lands against sinkholes as well), Ooze, etc.
I really like Zoo in the current metagame as the burn just finishes people off. Might not be great against Miracles but library and Ranger are amazing in that matchup.
So, I recently created a Zoo list splashing Blue for Delver of Secrets and Brainstorm. The synergy between Brainstorm and Thunderous Wrath is obbious, so i decided to test Wrath as a 3-of and I am really happy with it. I know you can basically give up if someone plays a full set of Wastelands but I have been testing it for days against a friend of mine who plays 3 in a Boros DnT deck and it has been running pretty amazing. Here's my list:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Hidden Herd
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
1 Loam Lion
1 Kird Ape
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Brainstorm
3 Thunderous Wrath
2 Chain Lightning
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
Shockduals suck, I know. But I have a fast clock(Goldfish T3, Usually T4-5€) and the lifeloss doesn't really matter against my meta(no Burn). Please give suggestions!
Hidden Herd seems interesting, but can you explain why this is main deck? If you don't draw it on the first two turns, it's completely a dead draw vs. RUG Delver. What match up is Hidden Herd better than loam lion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin
I have the same question about Thunderous Wrath. Is the 2 extra damage, sorcery speed, and requirement of having brainstorm to set it up, actually better than just running more Chain Lightning or Lightning Helix? It's a dead draw if you don't have a brainstorm and if you miracle it, it forces you to decide between advancing your board or not.
It seems like both these cards just make you less consistent.
I have been playing blue zoo for about a year and quater. I have a few comments. Yoou almost are forced to go into a thresh like shell for this to keep delver effective. Your deck only has 17 spells. That is not going to be very good for flipping delver. For reference here is my listQuote:
Originally Posted by Martin
3 wooded foothills
4 scading tarn
2 misty rainforest
1 flooded stand
2 volcanic island
2 tropical island
1 taiga
1 tundra
1 savannah
1 badlands
1 plateau
4 force of will
3 daze
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 lightnign bolt
4 tribal flames
3 chain lightning
1 green sun zenith
2 grim lavamance
4 tarmogoyf
4 delver of secrets
4 wild nacatl
@ Martin and ajfennewald: you should check the following link:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=3650&d=221854
I think the list has been discussed before in this threat.
@Capt4in
Greetings and thank you for the input. First I thought I should say its normal to have "godawful" ideas floating around. There are a mix of old and new players on these forums (read: more experienced vs less experienced) and hence its normal to have a "wtf" idea make an appearance when someone seems to get some deep discussion kick-started. However, look on the bright side, there might be ideas that make the oldies go "oh snap, why didn't I think of that". I can't personally quote any examples of that happening before, but hey who knows.
Alright onto the beef, I agree with everything you said about boros charm except the last bit. I think the 3rd ability can be relevant in situations that are narrow but crucial. It allows 5/6 goyfs to beat through a batterskull for example. The very knowledge that boros charm exists means opponents might have to respect it and adjust accordingly during creature combat. That itself can lead them to make suboptimal plays and is a subtle benefit we did not consider.
Your friend says youre a zoo expert :) I'm pretty new to the archetype having played with Lands and goblins for a long time (I had to finally abandon ship on lands after facing huge problems dealing with rest in peace and deathrite shaman - those are awful cards against any graveyard based deck trying to grind it out).
I would like to hear your thoughts on zoo's position in the current metagame and what you think is the way forward. A list of what you currently play would also be great. Have a good day.
I can offer some input on this front after having played zoo at a couple recent big tournaments.Quote:
Originally Posted by movingtonewao
The position in the metagame can largely be determined by what version of zoo you play, and the maindeck choices that you have.
Big Zoo - Better vs Midrange decks, especially with bloodbraid elf for card advantage.
Small Zoo - Better vs combo (faster clock), sometimes can outrace control by playing through removal and going for burn kill.
Standard Zoo - A mix of the two, best vs an unknown field. No accelerators or planeswalkers like big zoo, and not as weak to chalice on 1.
Price Of Progress hits much of the format right now for at least 6 damage, so I would also include that in the 75, 2-3 is probably correct.
Let's look at what is popular now, based on this list (from Jan 24th):
http://screencast.com/t/DL0Fxsfz3
First,
Jund:
I have found this match to be about 50/50. They can gain an advantage if the game goes for too long, or they hit the good stuff in your hand with early discard. The strategy here is to keep liliana off the board as much as possible and keep their creature count low with removal; only burning their life when they are low. Don't keep a wasteland vulnerable hand (1-2 duals), and kill deathrite at first sight. Abrupt Decay is very good vs your knights/equipments, if you have them.
MvPs: Grim Lavamancer (hits everything but goyf), Price Of Progress, punishing fire + grove if you're into that, Bloodbraid Elves of your own, and possible pithing needle from board.
Esper Stoneblade:
This match is tough, you need a couple Qasali Pridemages main if you hope to win game 1. They can snap-removal everything you play, and heaven forbid jitte ever hits the board with spirit tokens in play. Batterskull is a problem (life gain really hurts us), so if they fetch it with stoneforge mystic kill her on sight. If you have Kgrips or Ancient Grudge in your sideboard this becomes easier, but still tough. Hope they aren't playing Academy Ruins, and if they are wasteland it ASAP if you have it. Just keep attacking and attempt to deal with the removal they dish out.
MvPs: Qasali Pridemage, Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge, Scavenging Ooze (to remove lingering souls and swords to plowshares from yard), Gaddock teeg to block Jace. Price Of Progress can hit them real good if they don't play around it. REB/Pyroblast for Jace.
RUG Delver:
Finally a match that isn't that bad. Your creatures are better, you have removal for delver and goyf, and their counterspells are bad against you. Play around Daze with crucial creatures like goyf and KotR, and try not to walk into stifle/wasteland screw.
MvPs: Knight of the Reliquary, removal suite, Jitte if in your 75. Price Of Progress, again making a great appearance (notice the trend?).
Team America/BUG:
This deck isn't that great against us either. These decks are optimized for fighting control/combo decks, and often crumble to aggro; but it can depend on the build. They won't have enough removal for our deck. Kill all deathrites, don't waste creatures by attacking into untapped baleful strix. Kill planeswalkers ASAP.
MvPs: Burn (kills most creatures and planeswalkers), Gaddock, Price Of progress (yep, 4 of the best decks in the format are soft to this). REB/Pyroblast for Jace.
Reanimator:
This match is so/so, you have to hope for Karakas or Knight to fetch it out. This match is almost impossible for small zoo. They are usually only UB, so price is not as good as it is against the other decks. Just play early creatures, attack, and hope they don't get a shroud/hexproof creature out that you can't beat (Empyrial Archangel is really rough). Gets much better post board if you have 'yard hate.
MvPs: KotR, Karakas, Scavenging Ooze (of you have any), Path To Exile for fatties, Grafdiggers/Tormod's/Faerie Macabre/bojuka bog/rest in peace from sideboard.
Show and Tell:
Worst matchup by far. You can attack and hope for the best. Always pack Red Elemental Blasts/Pyroblasts in the board, maybe even oblivion ring to show into play. Fast zoo has a chance if they struggle, other variants can get knight in to play to tutor karakas asap. If they show emrakul: bounce asap with karakas. If they show griselbrand: Path/karakas asap. If they show sneak attack: kill asap with qasali. If they show omniscience, kill with qasali asap.
MvPs: KotR, Karakas, pithing needle (if sneak attack version), qasali pridemage, red elemental blast/pyroblast.
Tendrils:
This is why I play maindeck thalias. This matchup is tough, but still better than reanimator or show and tell. Your hatebears are the only defense that you can have maindeck. As with the other bad matchups, this gets better post board. thalia/Teeg/cannonist/mindbreak trap/pyrostatic pillar can all be used, but I recommend thalia and teeg split.
MvPs: Thalia, Teeg, Mindbreak Trap, Pyrostatic Pillar. Sideboard should contain at least 4 slots for this matchup, I play in the west coast so I have 8 slots (3 main 5 sideboard usually).
Miracles:
This matchup is pretty similar to Esper Stoneblade. They will snap removal you, and if they get counter-top you are likely screwed. Thanks to Jund/Abrupt Decay decks, this is not as prevalent in the metagame anymore, but still something to watch for. Attack like there is no tomorrow and hope they don't get terminus or entreat. Becomes better postboard with addition of Kgrip/REB/pyroblast/pithing needle. If the game goes long you will lose.
MvPs: Qasali Pridemage, REB/Pyroblast/Gaddock Teeg (shuts down major threats besides countertop; they have to swords him asap), pithing needle (if in side).
I can keep going with other popular decks, but I am off work now and need to go.
Thank you for the in depth analysis ironclad. It seems that we're not very well positioned in the current meta game and won't be making a comeback anytime soon.
Maybe I missed something, but what are folks thinking about Boros Charm in zoo? I think it's an upgrade to Price of Progress and can make for blowouts with Goyf. I plan on working in 2x Boros Charm in my Sligh Zoo setup.
Wonder what other folks are thinking...
Did you read the last few pages of the thread? We talked about it before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I built my list based on Mary Jacobson's Top 16 list from GP Atlanta. [brags] It's currently all-foil and the duals are German FBB. The REBs are Beta. [/endbrags]Quote:
Originally Posted by movingtonewao
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Price of Progress
1 Sylvan Library
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroclasm/2 Sulfuric Vortex/1 Lightning Helix, 1 Price of Progress
The last sideboard slot changes based on what I'm expecting more of. Vortex for fields heavy on Stoneblade/other UW decks, Pyroclasm if I'm expecting a decent amount of Goblins/Affinity, an extra Helix and Price if I'm expecting a wider field or a lot of BUG/RUG.
As for the metagame position, I think we are favored vs RUG/BUG: these decks are the reason to play Zoo, our creatures outclass theirs and we have way more removal. You should win any game against these decks that you don't get Wastelanded out.
We are not favored vs combo of basically all flavors, though I think some matchups, like ANT, High Tide, Dredge, and Reanimator are a lot closer than people think. ANT and High Tide usually go off around turn 3-4, giving you plenty of time to race. ANT in particular needs life in order to go off, so if you can knock them down to 10-11 life fairly quickly, they have a hard time not killing themselves. Don't be afraid to sling bolts at the dome as early as you can. High Tide is very slow and easily disrupted with a single Red blast postboard. Dredge is actually a pretty grindy matchup, since they should never be able to get a token from Bridge from Below, since you can almost always kill one of your own guys to get rid of them. This leaves them trying to race you with Ichorids (which you can path or just race, seeing as your guys are faster and you have Helix) or setting up a Dread Return. Reanimator is a matchup I've personally had a lot of luck with lately, so maybe it's just a small sample size bias, but the fact that Reanimate often deals 9-10 damage to them will allow you to steal a lot of wins. One thing I like to do is to sandbag burn when I think they are about to go off and try to burn them out with Griselbrand's ability on the stack (after they are down 7 life but before they have a fresh hand full of counters). TES is very rough but you should be able to steal a few wins. Show and Tell and Belcher are pretty much unwinnable. Your goal is to dodge this deck.
We are fairly even vs Stoneblade/Miracles. Miracles in particular is really not set up to handle a decent amount of reach, especially when you have answers to Counterbalance postboard. I usually get them to 10-12 life with creatures before getting wrathed out, and then burn them out as the game goes long, since I have more Bolts than they have creatures. Stoneblade is usually well-equipped to play a grindy game with us, but as they don't usually have Wraths you can usually remove all of their threats while forcing through a couple of dudes. Batterskull is pretty rough, hence the two Krosan Grips in the board.
I actually think Goblins is much worse of a matchup than it used to be. Krenko in particular gives that deck a way to just crush most board states, and they are usually very well equipped to overload your removal and just chump block your guys forever.
Burn is basically a bye, especially with Leylines in the board. (Which are there primarily for storm, but I chose them over the other options because they provide splash hate for burn and they are resilient to duress/silence while buying you enough turns to win. You don't need to lock a Storm player out completely, you just need to slow him down by a turn or two, i.e. while they find a bounce spell)
Edit: Forgot to talk about Junk and Maverick. These decks are somewhat unfavorable, though not so bad as combo is. Jund has the removal to keep you on the back foot and the clock to stop you from closing out with burn. Maverick can usually shut you down on the ground fairly quickly and take over with a Knight. However, these matchups are basically the only reason to put garbage like Bloodbraid Elf and Knight into your Zoo deck, and I think this narrow section of the field isn't worth it. These decks are built to prey on fair decks like Zoo, and changing your deck to fight them is just going to cause you to become an awkward inbred fair deck that is giving up its only real edge.
As for some of the other lists floating around in this thread, I think Knight and Thalia are absolutely terrible in Zoo. The reasoning is the same that I often saw a few years ago (around the time of GP Providence) for playing stuff like Wasteland in Zoo. The problem is that when you're playing Zoo you really don't care about a lot of the things that normal decks care about. Knight of the Reliquary seems particularly bad to me right now because it eats it very hard to Abrupt Decay and a vanilla 5/5 or whatever just isn't where I want to be spending my mana. At least Woolly Thoctar isn't soft to Deathrite Shaman. Thalia might be slowing down your opponents, but there are often going to be times where you play a Thalia, your opponent plays a Deathrite Shaman and a Bob, and you have a fistful of removal and 2 lands and can't stop your opponent from getting ahead. Thalia hurts us often as much if not more than many opposing blue decks.
As for different versions of Zoo, the "Big Zoo" and "Standard Zoo" described by others, in my mind, are basically just "Bad Jund" and "Bad Maverick", and I subscribe to the "Prime Directive", which is "Never play a bad something else". The reason to play Zoo over another deck is because it's (in most cases) a better burn deck than burn. It's not a better midrange deck than Jund, and it's not a better creature deck than Maverick. You need to be clocking your opponent as hard as possible as consistently as possible and punishing every stumble that you can.
Overall, I agree that Zoo really isn't much of a deck right now, but it has some reasonable matchups, and certainly some amount of format/deck knowledge will often carry the day. I certainly do better playing Zoo than any other deck, just on the basis of how long I've spent playing it.
Re: Price hitting for 6+ damage, I actually have found that it takes a lot of effort to "get" someone with Price, and the times it sits wasted in your hand or your opponent plays around it (which is fairly frequent, if they are competent) are pretty brutal. I think hitting for a consistent 4 with Boros Charm, plus the added utility of that card, make it better. I plan on cutting my 2 Prices for Boros Charms as soon as my foil Charms arrive in the mail. :)
Speaking of Wooly Toctar, I just came a little bit when I just thought about that guy backed by a Pridemage then Boros Charming it.
Also probably too cute, but I want to try out that 1/1 Battlion goblin from Gatecrash in a fast Zoo sligh type list.
If you thought I was advocating Woolly Thoctar over Knight of the Reliquary, you are mistaken. I was using Thoctar as an argument to show how bad Knight is. Thoctar isn't good in Zoo either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
The battalion goblin is not playable. Raging Goblin is atrocious and this guy isn't much better - most lists are only slightly more than one-third creatures, and requiring this guy plus two more (and none of them having been removed) for a very marginal benefit is not worth it.
@movingtonewao: This is the kind of activity I was complaining about. People who think Zoo is the place to shove every mediocre aggressive card that gets printed.
But Zoo is an aggressive-ish, albeit mediocre deck. What other cards would you expect people to suggest playing? Blue draw spells?Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt4in
I would expect people to look at a card, compare it to a card that is already in the deck, realize that Raging Goblin probably isn't as good as Kird Ape, and not mention it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Edit: But yes, I do realize that you are trolling. I certainly hope that Esper3k was.
Obviously, neither Wooly Thoctar nor the Legion Loyalist are cards for obvious serious consideration, but suggesting cards for consideration is how decks evolve. Bringing up cards may inspire someone to further develop an idea and make it work. For example, Legion Loyalist could conceivably have applications against decks like Esper Stoneblade, which runs Lingering Souls and Batterskull. Giving your 'Goyf and Nacatls trample as well as making them unblockable by Spirit or Germ tokens sounds pretty decent to me. Legion Loyalist is clearly going to be great in Goblins, but it may also have a home in a heavy aggressive creature deck.
Zoo hasn't been a serious Legacy consider for a long time now. Suggesting the same generic Zoo lists and refusing to even consider cards outside of what was played 2 years ago isn't going to make the deck any better.
I also find it somewhat amusing that someone who clearly hasn't contributed much yet is complaining about other people's posts in this OMG SRS BSNS thread.
Maybe you should take a look at Skyknight Legionnaire. It could certainly have applications coming down and attacking a planeswalker right away, or flying over enemy blockers. Another card to check out is Slaughterhorn. It gives you another do-nothing three-drop that will sometimes let your Wild Nacatl beat up on a Goyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
See, I can come up with rationalizations for terrible cards, too. Doesn't change the fact that they are unplayable in Legacy. Anyways, this is basically the reason I never post in this thread/on these boards (endless streams of terrible ideas). Good luck with your Legion Loyalist/Woolly Thoctar/Isamaru/Vinelasher Kudzu/Gyre Sage/Boggart Ram-Gang/Goblin Legionnaire/Domri Rade build.
I've been running a similar list Capit4in, but I run 2 Sylvan Libraries maindeck, and no Lightning Helix at all. I used to run 3 Price of Progress and 1 Fireblast, but since Boros Charm was printed, I was willing to give it a try. And it's pretty good actually. All abilities are relevant and the casting cost is easy on the manabase.
My list is the following:
Lands [19]
4 Windswepth Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
Creatures [23]
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Loam Lion
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
Spells [18]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
2 Boros Charm
2 Price of Progress
Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
I just can't play Relic of Progenitus as graveyard hate because is shrinks my goyf to an useless 0/1. Grafdigger's Cage is better against Dredge, as well. Sometimes I feel 23 creatures is a low number, but I can't see any other creatures that makes the cut (perhaps Goblin Guide). Pithing Needle is needed on the sideboard to screw Sensei's Divining Top, which is heavily played in a lot of DTBs.
About the matchups analysis:
RUG: favourable. Don't walk into Stifle and everything should be fine, our creatures are better than theirs, and we have more creatures. Path to Exile is awesome, as they don't run any basics.
BUG: favourable. Price of Progress just murder them. Use removal to clear the path, and swing hard. They usually have only 4 Abrupt Decays as removal, and we have a lot of must-kill creatures, such as Tarmogoyf and Grim Lavamancer.
Jund: even. Jund has plenty removal, usually 4 Bolts, 4 Abrupt Decays and some numbers of Edict effects, or even Punishing Fire. In this matchup, we have to kill Dark Confidant and Deathrite Shaman on sight, and swing fast. Otherwise, they'll Hymn our hand away and cast Bloodbraid Elf to win. Post-board gets better with Leylines of Sanctity.
Junk/Rock: even. This deck is deck also has a lot of removal. And they usually run Knight of the Reliquary or Stoneforge Mystic, which are really dangerous guys. Against this deck, a turn 1 Nacatl is very effective, and should swing for 6~9 damage before getting plowed of decayed. You usually get your board wiped and finish with burn.
Maverick: slightly unfavourable. This deck is really good in stalling the board. Mother of Runes and Knight are the biggest enemies, and Scavenging Ooze can also do some work. This game usually better when you cast Tarmogoyf or Grim Lavamancer early, and get rid of Mom ASAP.
Miracles: very unfavourable. Snapcaster Mage and Terminus just rain on your parade. You can't get in for much damage before they stabilize, and once they do, it's game. Counterbalance does an excelent job at keeping our burn at bay, and Jace is overwhelming after a sweeper. Post-board doesn't get much better, you can side in Krosan Grips, REBs, and Pithing Needles and hope for the best.
Esperblade: even. They have Stoneforge Mystic and Snapcaster Mage, which are really boring to deal with. Price of Progress is effective to some extent, and Path to Exile is horrible. Wild Nacatl and Qasali Pridemage are really good creatures to cast early. Post-board gets easier with Red Elemental Blasts and Ancient Grudge.
Show and Tell: very unfavourable. This combo is dumb, and too fast for Zoo. A good player won't activate Griselbrand before swinging/blocking with it, and we can't answer Emrakul. You can try to race them with REBs backup, but that usually doesn't work.
Goblins: very favourable. Every creature we play is better than theirs, and we have lots of burn to deal with the dangerous guys (like Lackey, Warchief and Piledriver). The game should be pretty straight-foward aggressive mode. Price of Progress suck, and is usually replaced by Pithing Needles, which can target Wasteland, Rishadan Port and AEther Vial.
Storm Combo: unfavourable. This deck can kill you really fast, but it usually needs life to combo. Be really aggressive and chump a lot of life can cause them to fizzle, but still, game 1 is as hard as it can be. Post-board Leylines + REBs help. Play REB aggressively on Brainstorms and Ponders, don't let them sculpt. Take out Path of Exile (obviously) and Sylvan Libraries/Grim Lavamancer.