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I never tested it, so it's just a consideration, but more than the fact that FB might be split, I'd fear growing the opposing Goyfs with Tarfire. Other than that, Tarfire seems fine, becasue it (together with possible T Scour) may improve our tempo by as far as two (?) turns. After all, it hardly matters what exactly killed DRS as long as the road is free.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
Thing about sulfur elemental is that it isn't just a flash dude; it's weenie hate, something we need. Clique is combo hate primarily, something we already have. So I wouldn't say the two are interchangeable.
And Tarfire? I'd rather not risk the backfiring scenario with opposing goyfs. Plus forking damage is very relevant now.
@ Blaze22
Congratulations on your finish, and I
Appreciate the time you took to write a tournament report.
I did want to ask about your SB strategy with Sulfur Elemental. I am especially curious about you siding it in against reanimator, enchantress and elves. I'm guessing you did this because it cannot countered and to establish a quicker clock on your opponent. Do I have that right?
There's a trouble with Elemental that it's a good hatebear against white weenies, while against other creature decks it's not that stellar; after all, he has p/t of 3/2, so it dies pretty easy. Clique, while dying to the very same creatures like elemental does, may fly over the ground stalemates while been similarly good during a blocking duty (ok, except for Lackey, etc. but this should be obvious). The added bonus of preventing BSkull to resolve and/or interrupting a combo chain is pretty powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
To put it more clearly: if you sb flash dudes so often, and if you got them not only for D&T mu, but also for other uses, you may consider adding/switching one Clique into your sb, as it's much better creature against Reanimator/ANT/Tress then Elemental. If your meta is infested with small white dudes, I wouldn't cut the Elemental down to one, but seen how you played 5 non-white matchups (with three of them been ground stalls and the remaining two been combo+Tress), there's hardly any reason to not play Clique. (Esp. against Elves, where you really need to fly and prevent NO; not so much against Goblins, where flying is huge, but toughness of 1 isnt...)
@ Tarfire discussion: Again, I never tried it, but the fact that I'm gathering courage to play the card for a few years must mean something... :smile:
Answering your questions about my card choices:
Sulfur elemental: I love this card, I side it in a lot usually because there are some matchups where mongoose is really bad (i.e vs fast decks and combo where it's too slow), so you want to side them out without lowering the threat count too much. Other than that, elemental wrecks white weenie and GW matchup so hard! I side them also vs goblins because you need to increase the number of creatures as much as possible, plus it can ambush their 1/1s or trade with an important warchief or piledriver. I know it's not the best sb card vs the ignorant green monsters, but as you said it's better than pierce for sure ;)
it's also very good vs combo because of its ability to enter eot leaving you mana open 100% of the time! oh and it's also great vs counterbalance... it can really mess up with the opponent's plan, surprise kill jace and it sneaks easily through the pesky enchantment, oh come on... the elemental is a freaking bomb!! :D
about the clique comparison... yeah vendilion sisters work better vs combo for sure, but our slots in sideboard are really tight, elemental provides more versatility being useful also in other matchups... I just like it more, but I could see him replaced with clique in a really unfair meta. probably it would have been better in my 5 pairings last night, but while walking throug the tables I saw lots of thalias and mother of runes around in GW decks, and a couple of WW as well so... I'll stick with the red dude for now ;)
Tarfire: I can proudly say I have tested every kind of secondary burn spell the deck can handle. I tired the classic forked bolt and chain lightning, but I also gave a shot to dismember, fire//ice, seal of fire and sudden shock (yeah, I did it, sudden shock dudes) and obviously tarfire. I have to say one thing first: instant speed is the nuts. I'd prefer even a 2 mana instant burn spell rather than a 1 mana sorcery. Tarfire seemed the best among the instants for me, given the low cost and the possibility to trick the opponent in different ways, expecially when coupled with thought scour (this is a fact, it happens more often than you could think!) Yeah, it grows opponent's goyf too but let's think about it: the only answers we have against a resolved goyf are a goyf of our own or a submerge, and in both cases the +1+1 is irrelevant so... let's tarfire that shaman everyone! :D
Hello Blaze22, thanks for your input.
The only thing I wanted to tell when comparing Elemental and Clique is that they are pretty similar in some way, though very distinct otherwise. While Elemental is easier to sneak through the counterwall (considering even C-Balance), Clique may send the annoying enchantment to the bottom, thus saving your future plays. Against hordes (namely non-white), Clique has the ability to fly over them, while Elemental, with it's double toughness and less constricting* mana cost, is a bit more versatile, mainly during blocks. It's quite obvious that Elemental's power against D&T is outstanding compared to Clique, but she may still fight the BSkull, which one Elemental hardly ever touches, as long as the SFM's toughness won't be errataed to 1. Karakas aside, I want two Elementals and one Clique against white decks every day.
*) It'll be interesting to analyze this aspect of the two cards. Yes, the one red in dude's manacost is a bit less prohibitive then that of Clique, and you may play it for Volcanic and two irrelevant lands. Otoh, all our "colored" lands produce blue, so it isn't impossible to have double blue available most of the time, and Clique might be played even in those unfortunate times when you're stuck on two Trops for whatever the reason.
In your place (depending on how many combo/control decks you've met or you expect), I'd find a place for one Clique, as it's a versatile, aggressive, evading creature with little to no drawback. (Yep, the 1UU cost can be hindrance and her legendary status is a liability, of course.) I wouldn't cut a single Elemental, that's sure.
Also, what' your opinion on Needle? I'm quite satisfied with it, though it doesn't make threshold and can be destroyed. But the mere fact that it stops several DRS/Lili/Mazes at once is pretty powerful.
Tarfire... I concede. :smile:
Fact is that as long as we don't have an answer for opposing Goyfs, it doesn't really matter how big are they. (Except when the +1/+1 that TF gives them may mean one less turn to dig out of danger.) And yes, Submerge doesn't really ask how big their Goyf is, it just removes them.
I need to force myself to try your build, but there are some one-ofs and cards I dislike (Im looking at you Thought Scour!) so for now I'll stick to my build. :laugh:
Hey, thanks to you for the opportunity to talk about the deck and improve our strategies! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
I must say, I used to be a big fan of clique, I played it in every deck with blue really, I also played a couple in the maindeck of my merfolk (and it was amazing, no joke). And a while ago I tested it as a 1-of maindeck in rug! wasn't that good though... but yeah it's a great card, I could definitely try to add one in sb for testing, in addition to the elementals.
About its mana cost... I remember that sometime ago I was playing vs D&T, he wasted all of my green sources and I was left with a lone volcanic (getting always tapped in my upkeep by port) + 2 wastes. I eventually managed to play the elemental instant speed in my upkeep and win the game later, yeah it has been a great time :D Other than that, I can't remember any other cases where I could cast the red but not the blue flashy creature, so I don't think it matters a lot.
I have a lot to say about this. I think there is no "strictly better deck", even in the exact same meta. Card choices shoud be made, in the first place, according to how we really like to play. The efficiency of rug depends mostly on the player's skill and choices during the actual game, and the skill also depends on how much we are familiar with the deck interactions. i.e If a player is really aggressive, I can see him playing a version with 7 burn spells and less counters, and he'll probably do better than he would do with a more blue intensive version. I personally like the 1-of's, because I like having more options even with a little less consistency, so I'm playing them! I also like to do some tricks during the game, so thought scour and tarfire are the right cards for me :smile: On the top of that, you should really try them at least once, they worked so well in the last 2 weeks of playtesting that they're worth a try.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
As a general rule though, I suggest everyone to use the cards that you're more comfortable to play with, because there's no card better than a correct decision. :cool:
Blaze22, I agree with everything you wrote!
I think I'll give a chance to the two cards. If only the Thought Scour illustration wasn't so stupid and fugly.
Dirty relativist. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze22
I can see a case for Tarfire, especially if there aren't many opposing Goyfs in your meta. With all the Pyromancers running about though, Forked Bolt just feels like a safer choice (plus there's always the dream of swinging in with your two Goyfs, having their two Goyfs block, then post-combat Forked Bolting for the supreme taco). I do like Clique a lot though (usually from the SB).
haha it's true, that image is so unsettling :D it doesn't even make any sense! I mean, Traumatize has a softer image than that bloody crap, and it destroys half of your brain in one shot...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Oh God, talking about the sulfur elemental vs clique I completely forgot about a couple of games I did vs painted stone a while ago, where I was able to win with a resolved blood moon on the battlefield by beating with him!!! That little 3/2 never stops to amaze me... :wink:
In this example, 2xblock one goyf and take damage, 2x1 against you....Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Well, unless they are at a near-lethal life totalQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Crane
What is your guys thought on Git Probe? I don't like the idea of bolting myself turn 1 but I also can see the benefits from seeing an opponents opening hand.
There has been discussion of the card for a while now, mostly bouncing between "it gives you info, makes your plays easier/more powerful, counts towards threshold" and "is terrible in multiples, is an awful topdeck, isn't necessary if you can identify your opponent correctly and you proper plays/role, and it (probe) cuts business like pierce, snare or non-lightning bolt removal."Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree
It's your choice and, honestly, it doesn't even matter all that much. The other 54 cards in this deck are already locked in an will give you peak performance. Although, I can never see myself brainstorming to dig for a probe unless I needed thresh desperately.
So. True.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze22
I played a 4rounder in our LGS today and lost to ANT although I sided Clique. (Not that I seen it.) And I also lost to WBG deck as my Sulfur Elemental did not show up. I think I'll cut Clique now and add second Elemental.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze22
Also, a friend of mine play Moon in ANT board. Says a lot about Clique vs. Elemental, doesn't it?
_________________________________
Dear moderators! I know that this is a DTB thread and as such, it has some standards, but I'd still wish to make an experiment.
Instead of writing a long, tedious reprot, I'd just hare my in-game notes. I think that everybody will understand them and in case this catches up, it may save a lot of future time (both mine and yours) and as a cherry on top, you won't be forced to read my "witty" Engrish essays...
Todays report:
The list:
Qty Name
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Forked Bolt
//\\
// Sideboard
3 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Vendilion Clique
R1, Tom, Jund
Tom returned to tournament Magic after a short while, he even had some troubles with registration, as the last tournament he played in was a preview of some bit older edition... Weatherlight? Is it even a real edition?
Me Tom
20 19 fetch (Stifle!)
21 18 Grove, DRS
20 18 Mong, FB->DRS
19 17 Confi
19 17 FB->Confi
20 17 Goyf (Daze!)
21 14 Goyf (Daze!)
21 11 Waste->Trop (Stifle!)
21 8 Confi; Thoughtseize (Bolt!->Confi), taking SPierce
21 6 tap Mongoose, Bolt to head
sb: out 3-4 FoWs and 4 Dazes, in Roughs, Needles, Submerges and Clique (?)
Me Tom
20 20 DRS
19 20 Hymn (SPierce!)
18 20 my Goyf; Waste->Trop
18 20 DRS
16 20 Rough (DRS!->BS)
15 17 Waste->Trop
14 14 my Goyf
14 6 Delver; BB Elf->Thoughtseize, Tom conceded
Win. 1:0
Does it make any sense? If not, I may write the real report. But not tonight...
__________________________________
Edit:
Ok, seen how you're lost in the mess, I need to write a real report... :smile:
4 rounds in LGS, deck of choice Canadian Threshold.
R1, Tom, Jund
g1: I Stifled his fetch and on his next turn, Tom played DRS of Grove. I killed the shaman with Forked Bolt and played Mongoose. Tom summoned Dark Confidant, but I got another FB ready. He then played two Goyfs increasing my life total a bit with Grove, but as he was stuck on two lands and my hand was insane, I countered both Goyfs with Daze. He at least tried to Waste my Trop, but I Stifled it. I pressed with Mongoose, he put another DC into play and cast Thoughtseize. I Bolted DC in resp. and let the TS resolve, shocking Tom in process. Tap Mongoose, Bolt to head, onwards to game 2.
sb: sb: out 3-4 FoWs and 4 Dazes, in Roughs, Needles, Submerges and Clique (?)
Yep, pretty controllish approach. I need to stop DRS to apply my manadenial plan, also, Liliana is really bad, so the Needles. Roguh is generally good, as is Submerge. I keep one FoW as a safety button against w/e like Choke, Lili, Deed.
g2: Tom got DRS, on his next turn he played Hymn which I SPierced. Having Rough in hand, I decided to play Goyf to lure some more guys into play, and the second DRS showed up. I flushed them with Rough, Tom at least ate Brainstorm in response putting me to 16. Next turn he destroyed my Trop, but I still got my Goyf; it was followed by another one and then by Delver. Tom played Bloodbraid Elf and cascaded into Thoughtseize. i learned him he may send it to the bottom and save two life points, but no matter what, this was his swan song.
Win, 1:0
R2, Mat, ANT
I got pretty negative score with Mat, I'm not sure if I ever defeated him. To make it even more sad: he plays the deck for a while, while I played it for an eternity.
g1: I kept a mediocre hand, while he started with the infamous Probe plus Therapy. At least I had Brainstorm. Lately he found CRit with IT. I Bolted him eot, then on my turn I finally got Mongoose. Soemone played Brainstorm and Ponder. On his six life Tom played Phyrexian Gitaxian Probe seeing Daze, BS, FoW, Mong, Snare. He fetched and in resp. I BSed drawing L. Bolt and ending the game on spot.
sb: out some removal and A Mongoose or two, in Blasts, FLusterstorms, Roughs and Cilque, maybe even Elemental.
g2: Pretty fast game. I had amazing hand, but the GP, Dur, CT sequence ripped it apart. It wasn't too interesting after Preordain, CRit, LED, LED, AdN->DRit*3, CT, ToA
g3: Opening the hand with FoW and double BS, I expected to win. First Dur took BS, second Dur forced me to play the remaining BS; after that Mat took Fow. I was annoying him with Mongoose, but he played IT, pass. Expecting a trap, I let it resolve, he found another IT. I eot Bolted him and forced through the lat attack, lowering his life total to two. On his last turn Mat tried DRit that I Dazed, which he easily payed for having four or so lands. CT took my Snare and then I ceased to care.
Loss, 1:1
Note: I won't be siding the Roughs. Although I hat to lose to Gobos while knowing I got a perfect weapon against them, it has little to no meaning. As RUG basically starts at eighteen life and has fast enough clock to make the EtW plan dangerous after turn3+, they always kill me with ToA, not to mention i need to find the Rough post-EtW, as their Therapies get rid of the one I may held.
R3, Mira, Burn
Wow, a Lava Spike matchup! Who would not love some high quality Magic?
g1: He led with Grim which I forkedly bolted. Marauders were Fowed, Guide resolved. I can't tell much abotu the match. Mongoose held the Guide, Delver flied over it, then on his six life I tapped both my creatures. Delver died to Bolt, Guide heroically stood in front of Mongoose. Clever guy, he knew I got Bolt. No matter what, he did not topdekc anythng so I won with my hit points reduced to four by some of his nameless spells I was lazy to write down.
sb: Needle, Flusterstorms, Roughs, maybe some flash dude, out one FoW, one Delver, one Stifle and some other things IDK now, maybe one Ponder?
g2: Kingdom for a Hydroblast! I thought of double Needle and maybe I even took it, I can't tell now. After all it's good against both Lavamancer and Relic.
Mira plyed Grim and then suspend-played Rift Bolt, never running into Daze or anything. Then finally i was given a chance to Flus his Chain Lightning, the card did surprise him. I Pierced PoP, then I deliberately overextended into sweeper (he had few cards) and yes, my Mong and 2x Delver were hit by Flamebreak. I got Goyf out and then another one, then in resp. to 2nd PoP I fetched (voluntarily finding nothing which surprised my opponent) and Waste my Trop. I won on six life, sole Volc and double Goyf.
Win, 2:1
R4, Luke, WBG, highlight of the evening
I hadn't played with Lukáš for months, so I was bit nervous what should I expect.
g1: I mulled to five (M7: Volc, FoW, green monster and some non-cantrip stuff; M6: double Waste hand) keeping this lovely hand: Delver, fetch, fetch, dual, Waste. W/e, I won't go down to four.
Lukáš played IoK taking Delver, then his turn2 Sculler took the Mongoose I kept from Ponder. I conceded after turn3 Jitte.
sb: out counterspells, in creature and artifact removal. I should have played the g1 a bit longer, I'd knew about SDT and I'd took Needle.
g2: I Stifled his fetch, then I played Mongoose. His DRS was Bolted, then I played BS finding Stifle whenhe fetched again. Lukáš cocneded on four life, never seen any other land.
g3: Amazing game, Lukáš got Ling. Souls and it was enough. I was unable to find the Elemental, Delver was StPed once it flipped, even Batterskull showed up. I lost in a prety fast fashion without ever dealing one point of damage. At least I bolted DRS to increae my bolted DRS score, but well...
Loss, 2:2
OK, could have been worse. At least we've had some fun and we've chatted with Jakub (a buddy that also plays Thresh) and Slosh (the one you know) and we've had nice general discussion not directly related to the Legacy metagame.
I'l cut Clique and add Elemental, i also try to keep my sideboarding more reasonable.
Pros:
Other Luke willing to buy my USea.
Slosh deciding to not purchase a horrible, horrible deck. ("Man, I looked throguh it and I wanted to barf."
Cons:
The result.
Slosh not willing to improve my account by purchasing a horrible, horrible deck.
Cheers!
BDP
First of all, I play Canadian since two months, so maybe I'm not the best player overall :-) I can't decide what I'll play. Everybody in Germany says you've to play Dismember to stop Goofy, Knight and Stalker. I tried it in four tournaments and it never had done it's job. So how necessary is this card? Is it worth to cut a Daze for playing it?
Next question, I play five burn spells tried Tarfire but I think I'll change it back to fire//Ice cause yesterday Tarfire pushed the op Goofy more than mine.
Last question my Sideboard ist like this:
3 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
1 sulfur Elemental
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Rough / Tumble
I don't know what I like to play in the last slot. Yesterday I tried a second Dismember, I never needed. So I can't decide between Library and Life from the loam. I think library is much better in combo mus?
Thanks for helping me
I've been playing 2 Cursed Totems in my sb for some time and have really been loving them. It's quite narrow but really effective against D&T, Maverick and Elves, which are not easy match ups.
Has anyone else tried it?
definitely Loam should be your 15th card Knut. It is so strong now all people play with greedy mana bases. Cutting a Daze is crucial and not recommended. Cutting a Force and moving it to the SB is an ok move in a midrange/creature based meta. Your question what removal spell is the best is a tough one: Besides the four bolts there are no conventions. Many play Forked Bolt or Dismember, some love Tarfires. I adore Izzet Charm. My advice: If you have a good amount of Snares MD you do not need the anti Goyf card Dismember that much. And if you end wishing just more Bolts play Chain Lightning. It is the most flexible removal spell as dealing 3 damage to the face is so often game ending.Quote:
Originally Posted by MethadronGer
Not as of yet; I am, however, running 2 pithing needle to similar effect. Has totem's 2 cmc ever been a problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by loop
I got 3rd @ approximately 40 person Die Hard Games GPT yesterday. Here is the list and a quick report:
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Tarfire
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Submerge
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Spell Pierce
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Sulfur Elemetal
Round 1: Death and Taxes
Game 1: He mulls to 5 and am easily able to dispatch the few threats he presents.
Game 2: I mull to 5 but am able to get back in the game when I catch a MoM and Thalia with Rough.
1-0
Round 2: TES
Game 1: I have to burn my only FoW on Silence and he is able to go off next turn.
Game 2: I have an early threat backed up by counter magic.
Game 3: I keep Mongoose, Ponder, Brainstorm 4 land hand and lose when cast Probe into Therapy on Brainstorm on his turn 1. TES often has to keep slower hands with mana sources and cantrips against us and it just feels so bad to mull hands with cantrips and fetchlands, but this was an obvious mulligan in retrospect.
1-1
Round 3: TPS
Game 1: He has discard spells to destroy my hand and the cantrips to set up a Past in Flames win.
Game 2: I land an early threat. My opponent makes me discard my FoW. He goes for a straight up Tendrils and I am able to Brainstorm up a Stifle.
Game 3: My opponent doesn't draw any discard and has to go off hoping I am on the Spell Pierce and not FoW plan since all he has is mana souces. He gets a lot of mana and hard casts a Tendrils for 14, but I have the FoW for the last card in his hand, Infernal Tutor.
2-1
Round 4: Miracles
Game 1: I grind him down to 1 while he has Rest in Peace and Helm of Awakening out. If I can just draw a Stifle (to hold of Helm for a turn so a Mongoose can swing in again) or Bolt I would of have won but I drew a Goyf instead.
Game 2: I don't remember too much, I probably attacked with cheap creatures and was able to limit his resources.
Game 3: We go to time because U/W Control always goes to time.
2-1-1
Round 5: TES
Game 1: I have a turn one Delver and he plays Gemstone Mine, Brainstorm which I Daze. I then Spell Pierce his follow up Ponder. Gemstone Mine is his only mana source so I waste that and it's an easy win from there.
Game 2: He goes off early hoping I am on the Spell Pierce plan but I have multiple FoWs for his Burning Wish.
3-1-1
Round 6: BURG Tempo
Game 1 and 2: I don't remember the specifics of how I won these games, but my opponent didn't seem to be running Goyfs of his own, so they were a major trump. Also BURG runs a ridiculous mana base that is easy to exploit. If you never find an answer for Deathrite Shaman, your in trouble, but otherwise RUG mostly trumps BURG. The reason why RUG Tempo is the best tempo deck is because it is the best in the tempo mirrors.
4-1-1
Top 8: Lands
Games 1 and 2: Going into this match I thought there was no way I could win since my opponent is running Liliana of the Veil in addition to Punishing Fire and was running Grafdigger's Cage over Surgical Extraction in the SB. My opponent's build proved to be a little clunky against RUG Tempo though, he needed to support UU for Tolaria West, BB for Liliana and had to run Grove of the Burnwillows as well. In game 1, I was able to Daze Life from the Loam a couple times since he had to sacrifice a land to Glacial Chasm and had other non mana producing lands like Tabernacle and Maze of Ith in play. Game 2 was basically more of the same, my opponent wasn't able to resolve Life from the Loam once.
Top 4: RUG Tempo Mirror
Game 1: I win when I am on the play like I am supposed to.
Game 2 and Game 3: I flood crazily in both of these games on fetchlands which was a bit tilting. In game 3 I probably could have one when I had 3 Fetchlands, 2 duals, and a Waste on the table to his Wasteland and fetchland. I should have Wasted his Waste and ate the card disadvantage since all I had was lands. This would have put him down a land, and when he top decked a land next turn, his Tarmogoyf would have still of been within Daze land. His Tarmogoyf would not have been a problem if I could draw anything besides Scalding Tarn, but alas, it wasn't to be.
I consider the main deck to be locked in stone and would not change it until a better burn spell is printed. I am cutting the 2nd Ancient Grudge from the sideboard and am going to have to consider my graveyard hate package. Unfortunately I never drew Young Pyromancer but I like the card in theory. I definitely consider Flusterstorm to be worse than Spell Pierce and Red Elemental Blast in the SB.