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I've been wondering about going 3-2 confidant/library and how is tracker? seems nice to be able to get a one card engine via gsz that isnt knight (which isnt REALLY an engine without loam). Also I cut my relentless from the board. I understand the card is there for value in grindy matchups but I was never impressed even when I got him on the board. Can someone make the case for me?Quote:
Originally Posted by NegatorITA
I feel that the Library is so big in so many matchups. I have been high on Library for years and the first one is either destroyed or keeps you from drawing multiple libraries. The library + loam interaction ensures we have access to what ever we need to dominate the late game without the fear of dredging what we want. Library is just amazing in most matchups, especially when it can be played turn 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by juzamjimjams
The steppe is minimal cost to either counter a removal spell or alpha strike late game, and usually both with loam. It further supports the game breaking ability of having an active Knight.
Priest is just the best single card that stops the most of our terrible matchups, without sacrificing tons of slots. The biggest uses are to shut down elves(GSZ and No), show and tell, dredge, reanimate and aether vial with show and tell and reanimate being the current most popular. I don't want to pretend that these matchups will ever be super favorable, but containment priest,gsz>teeg, knight>karakas, and chalice of the void give us a fighting chance in most games. Removing the 3-4 leylines open up the option to play more varied hate while still getting Priest and GSZ>Scooze to help fight dredge. At the end of the day we are playing life from the loam and beating turn 0-1 decks is not what I think we can aim for but beating the "slower" combo decks is very possible.
What are you bringing the Leyline in against? I understand the hatred for dredge but I am not sure the number of other matchups you bring it in against.
I'm not him but anything that uses the graveyard extensively. Not stuff like snapcaster but Reanimator, Lands, and other Loam decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Since we don't have a blistering clock, don't those decks have time to find a solution to the card? Leyline also is not recastable in the event of bounce. I will say it is the best card against most loam strategies but Lands can still make a 20/20 on your face and reanimate usually plays show and tell after board.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
I believe the priest is a better card vs more relevant matchups.
I mean, it all depends on your meta. My experience has been that BR Reanimator is pretty fuckin dead to Turn 0 Leyline most of the time. They only have a limited number of ways to deal with it in the board in the first place, so first they have to have the presence of mind to expect leyline out of your deck, then they actually have to draw the card they need, which isn't always a given, especially since they only have faithless looting to see more cards. Even if Leyline only buys you a few turns, that can at least help you find that karakas or maze of ith you need to survive against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Leyline is also bonkers against lands. Sure they can naturally make a 20/20, but that also involves them drawing both cards and you not having an answer like Karakas/maze/StP. Plus it ensures that if they go for marit lage, they only get to do it once since the lands will then be exiled.
I think both Leyline and Priest are good enough for both to be played in the sideboard. I've been doing 3 Leyline and 2 Priest myself and have been happy.
Yep, leyline just plain stops getting turn 1'd by that deck unless they have the nut perfect hand i.e. disenchant effect + reanimate type effect + entomb type effect + fast mana or stronghold gambit/show and tell. As is true with all hate you're going to have a multitude of it, hopefully in the matches leyline comes in you're not just solely depending on it to win you the game. It should buy you time to find other pieces of hate.
I realized another big MU I forgot to mention is ANT (I don't really bring it in against TES), it cuts off the PoF lines.
We are arguing the merits of two very good sideboard cards in different matchups for different meta games so I don't think that either of them are bad. Maybe we should just have a "good sideboard card" section.
I mean, I play both Leyline and Containment Priest so I'm not really making an argument here, though my rationale for Leyline is as follows:
Leyline sures up a wider spectrum of what I call 'random bullshit' decks, something that my local metagame never really fails to offer. My choice to include it doesn't stem from a hatred for Dredge (that honestly really was just a meme), but as acknowledgement of the fact that by not running Force of Will we're the kind of deck that can get turn oned. On top of this though, as CptHaddock suggested, the card has application where Priest does not in matchups such as Lands, Loam decks and even Storm (though Storm isn't where it shines, it's sure as hell better than a lot of our mainboard cards).
I really value cards that may be silver bullets in some match ups (Leyline can turn Manaless Dredge into a bye), but also have utility in matchups where we have a lot of dead cards (Leyline hinders Lands, it doesn't kill them, but it's better than a Gaddock Teeg or a Punishing Fire).
Tldr: Graveyard decks, but its also not dead against some 'even' matchups.
I think I am moving towards getting the third Priest in the board anyway though, not sure what I'll be cutting. For my build of the deck I think Leyline is a 0 or 4 of due to the difficulty of casting it.
Greetings,
I run a 3c Loam deck without red or the DD combo, and it has been very rewarding. You all should test it out sometime.
Running 3/2 DC/SL is something I haven't thought of, and it seems very interesting. I might test it, but I would probably up the fetch count to help against BS locking. I am just worried about Leo eating up my libraries...
Hopefully by now most are on board with Mr. Ramy, as he is the 3-4 Loam that we didn't but did need. Cabals, Rings and Ghosts oh my!
The standard GY hate is 3/2 Leys/Priests, and I run that. Never needed anything else. Fights Storm. Dredge. Shows. Reanimator. Opps. HyperGs.
Btw Council's Judgment is a house to play. That and tag teaming with Lilis is a TNNs knightmare XD
But the real question: How to fit in the new pithing needle into the main? Anyone have any suggestions? I believe it can act like the 5-6 Chalice in some cases. Those of you who haven't seen it yet should check it out. I believe it is what we needed bc we can't/shouldn't run pithing. I don't like revoker bc it can't hit lands and gets a bigger bullseye. Think of it... T1 on the play: Drop Waste, Mox, Spyglass --> sees two Flooded Strands and Tundra = profit, which all fits into the resource denial plan of Aggro Loam. Think about it. Also, the worse MU is S&S, which becomes a little better.
Pce yall. I'm out.
I respect this response, I am currently testing Ground Seal as my graveyard hate/protection where Containment Priest doesn't cut it.Quote:
Originally Posted by juzamjimjams
Quick report: 3-1 tonight
Beat BR Reanimator in 3
Lost 2-1 to Blue and Taxes
Beat Merfolk 2-0
Beat RUG Delver 2-0
Current List:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sylvan Library
2 Life from the Loam
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
3 Counsil's Judgement
4 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Maze of Ith
Sideboard:
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
3 Containment Priest
3 Ground Seal
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tabernacle
All stars of the night include Tarmogoyf, Ramunap Escavator and Counsil's Judgement; I didn't miss black at all.
Can't wait to play again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by luckypenny
Got a list?
4 MoxQuote:
Originally Posted by Thoughtsauce
4 Chalice
2 Sorcerous Spyglass*
1 Dryad
3 Dark C*
1 Teeg
4 Knight of the R
2 Rams
1 Sage
2 Library*
3 Decay
1 Golgari Charm*
2 Bayou
1 Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
1 Ghost Q
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp*
1 Tabernacle
1 Tower of the Magistrate
3 V Catacombs
4 Waste
2 Windswept H
2 Liliana
2 Council's J
2 GSZ
2 Loam
SB:
2 Priest
1 Absolute Law*
1 Choke
1 Engineered Plague*
3 LeyVoid
1 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
3 StPlows
1 Toxic Deluge
Had a few pros take a look at the list too, and they all seem to have no issues with it. Some of them like chains in SB, others wanted more TNN hate. Right now I feel a little naked against Burn, so I am marinating on some other SB cards atm.
*Testing
I'll bite.Quote:
Originally Posted by luckypenny
1) You are not playing any cycle lands.
2) You aren't playing Horizon Canopy.
3) You have not given or even proposed a valid reason to replace Punishing Fire.
4) You said ring in your write up, but didn't list Ring or any red.
5) Sylvan Library?
6) 11 creatures, with only 4 KotR as actual ways to win the game seems very threat light.
7) Not enough removal? DRS into Delver/Goyf and MoR into SFM are going to be huge problems.
8) No maze but yes Tower of the Magistrate? Maze combos with Knight and also stops equipment in the same situations.
9) I don't think you are making mana any easier on yourself as you still need GWWBB which might be easier than GWBBR with grove.
That being said, what is the benefit of cutting red? I fully support cutting colors as I hate being mana screwed as a loam player. I have tried to cut colors and have gone down to straight GB but I want to play Chalice of the Void which I do not think work with straight GB as well.
Edit: my post seems rude but I don't want it to be.
What are the advantages of cutting PF and grove, what are you gaining and how is it worth it? The list is just very out their and I have played Loam since printing in every color combination possible. The best version of GWB that I have made can't run Chalice and needs the turn 1-2-3 disruption to establish a lead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
These are all excellent questions, and I hope to answer them all.
As one of the decks that abuses Wasteland, I found it unacceptable that this deck, kind of, folds to opposing Wastelands. Part of the philosophy of this deck is to have answers to most of the meta. So why is it having so many problems with one of the major cornerstones of legacy? So I cut a color to deal with it. I looked at the deck and saw that red did the least work. I didn't come up with replacements. I just needed to get to three colors. I can't cut Knight, and I need Dark Confident, Decay, and Voids in SB. So. No red.
1. I don't run DD Combo and Pfire. Why would I need to dredge when Knight can do it better? Loam is there to supplement the deck's engine: Knight.
2. Isn't Canopy run to save Loams? I might run it now that Ram was printed, but the space is already tight. So, no? Lol
3. Yup. No red. I believe it sucks in this deck. Hahaha. It can't deal with TNN, Leo, Angler, or Tarm.
4. Yup. No red. But Ring is good. In that post of mine, I never said I ran it. I run Pits instead.
5. There are two libraries in the list.
6. This is a valid point, and I am still trying to come up with something. I might be adding ooze soon btw. So that helps the threat count a bit. But don't most Loam lists run light in creatures and threats?
7. Pfire can't deal with TNN or Leo or Tarm or delvecreatures. Salt Mine and my list can bc we include Judgments. It's actually 4c loam that relies too much on Pfire and assumes it can deal with most threats when in actuality it can't.
8. I think Maze is subpar. I want all my land to produce mana at some point. I might even be taking out Taber bc of this. Tower is too good against D&T; I have never lost to D&T when I had Tower out, as they need equipment to beat out Knights. And, Tower actually kills the germ token produced by Batter then produces mana in subsequent turns while Maze babysits. Also, I don't run DD combo, so I need Knights to dodge Strix.
9. Three colors is easier than four. Yup. When legacy is dominated by Wasteland, managing three colors is a lot easier than running four.
I think Pfire exposes the deck to land attack strategies, which, I believe, outweigh the benefits of the CA one gets from Pfire in its optimal situations. Just my thoughts.
Cheers.
Cutting PFire itself does seem to make sense, since a lot of the meta now is DRS, Leovold, and TNN. Not to mention DnT running Mirran Crusader. DRS does get killed by PFire, but it's another piece of graveyard that can turn into a liability.
I'm not sure if it should be something else or if cutting Red is the answer, but it's a definite meta shift.
What do you run in place of the Spyglass currently?
I'm at work so I can only address a little of this now. The salt mine list, and the one I am currently playing, both cut black. I think we all feel the same way in that the 4c mana base is too hard to justify even in a loam deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by luckypenny
I do not play the DD combo as it usually means you have an active knight and/or an established mana base... both of which mean you are far ahead.
Life from the loam is broken and is how you win midrange/control matchups. You need to have ways to abuse it(and will also make knight and excavator better) which means a horizon canopy and/or a cycle land at the minimum.
Maze of ith is one of the first lands to tutor up if only to be able to attack with and activate knight every turn.
Unfortunately, I can't see a reason right now to cut Punishing Fire as it kills all weenies and feeds your liliana for free.
I will ponder more about BGW with chalice throughout the day.
Just a third Lil and some sort of flex card: lately it was a charm, but before it was a flayer *shrugs*Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
I think tripping lands are good, and I did run them as well. Maybe I will look into it again. It will be a good edition if I decide to put a Stronghold in.
Maze is not that good, even with combat tricks. The first land I tutor up is a Waste. Also, I cannot have a land that doesn't make mana. A maze in hand when I need to cast a Loam or a Chalice is so dorky.
The ultimate weenie deck is D&T, and I feel Knight naturally beats them. We also have answers to Vials and their mana denial plan. Lookin salty when they drop a recruiter that buddies a Prelate who likes fishing for two CC? Ugly times back then. Lol
Red is weak in this deck, and the deck needs to move forward and meet the new challenges. Like I wrote. What does TNN mean to you? How do you deal with it? When a Leo drops in to ruin our libraries, how can we economically deal with him? I just got spanked by a Hooter last night, but it really didn't help that I topdecked 3-4 lands in a row. A Judgment would have been nice.
I don't really see the incentive of going 3 colors, i've tried both Junk and Naya lists and have always come back to 4c. My issue with the Junk colors is that you both lose the ability to machine gun creatures (even with brutalities) and threaten walkers/your opponent in the late game and have to rely on effects like vindicate, pulse and judgement to take care of problematic walkers which may put you into an awkward spot if you're both loaming and trying to find these cards. Not to mention that the red walkers (Chandra and Ajani) work extremely well in this deck. Naya's biggest problem was that you sacrifice a lot of tools for dealing with TNN and Combo matchups to have better fair matchups. The manabases are better with the naya and junk versions but it feels like you are losing a lot by cutting colors.
The idea behind the cycle lands is that when you have a loam engine going, it's basically a draw 4. Chances are you should be able to find what you are looking for in a few turns after drawing 4. I don't like Horizon Canopy as we don't play any acceleration aside from mox diamond unlike lands. Also it's not completely true that fire can't deal with Angler and other large threats, you always have the option of blocking and double firing and related lines.
Canopy is bonkers with excavator and let's knight draw a card.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Also, lucky, I play Naya with 3 main deck judgements right now. My list is on the last page right about when you posted.
Back when we started playing pfire there were ~3 kinds of creatures: Creatures you can't cast, creatures that die to pfire, and goyf. Somewhat recently the list of real creatures that don't die to pfire has gotten quite a bit larger and I'm no longer thrilled with it as a removal spell.
That being said, I still think it is super important as a lock piece. If not stopped, some time in the mid/late game we will naturally put pfire + grove+mana together and lock most fair decks out of creatures and walkers. If there was some (green) creature or land based lock that could replace pfire, I'd be all over it.
I almost never feel like my manabase is weak, and I play Stage+Depths and lots of funky shit like Kor Haven. The trick is I don't play lili. Not ever needing BB means I can much more aggressively fetch the basic. There are some awkward draws where I am hurt by opposing wastelands but they are pretty rare. It also helps that I ramp on turn 1 as often as possible.