Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Okay, time for some updates.
Deadeye
Here's what I came up with. As you can see, I ended up de-cute-ing it a lot.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Master Biomancer
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Prime Speaker Zegana
1 Primeval Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Force of Will
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
3 Island
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB:
2 Force of Will
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Dinrova Horror
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Jace Beleren
I proxied up your (61 card) dead eye list you posted for some quick games against BUG tempo. It seems to do what I would want against control/combo just fine, but I wasn't impressed by spellstutter outside of those areas. Delvers were particularly troublesome when landed early and backed with permission. I changed the sprites for baleful strix and it ran better in the delver matchups, despite often pumping goyfs even higher. Have you found tempo variants to be an issue with Deadeye?
Zegana similarly wasn't very impressive for me, rarely being above a 4/4 draw three unless I had biomancer out (master biomancer being a very good reason to run this deck for the record). Venser was decent, but he definitely shines better in matchups other than the ones I was playing.
Overall, the deck ran rather well until I had to try to close the game out. I'd consider recurring nightmare as another potent engine (in addition) over maybe a witness? Thoughts on any of this?
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tammit67
I proxied up your (61 card) dead eye list you posted for some quick games against BUG tempo. It seems to do what I would want against control/combo just fine, but I wasn't impressed by spellstutter outside of those areas. Delvers were particularly troublesome when landed early and backed with permission. I changed the sprites for baleful strix and it ran better in the delver matchups, despite often pumping goyfs even higher. Have you found tempo variants to be an issue with Deadeye?
Zegana similarly wasn't very impressive for me, rarely being above a 4/4 draw three unless I had biomancer out (master biomancer being a very good reason to run this deck for the record). Venser was decent, but he definitely shines better in matchups other than the ones I was playing.
Overall, the deck ran rather well until I had to try to close the game out. I'd consider recurring nightmare as another potent engine (in addition) over maybe a witness? Thoughts on any of this?
BUG delver tempo in particular actually does pretty good against most forms of nic fit, except GBW, and this list is no exception. Other tempo decks (RUG, UR, etc), and other BUG lists (shardless or landstill) are pretty hard to lose to. Id recommend testing it against some other decks besides BUG delver as well to get a good scope of the deck. Although, I dont/wouldnt play the deadeye list so I cant help you too much there.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tammit67
I proxied up your (61 card) dead eye list you posted for some quick games against BUG tempo. It seems to do what I would want against control/combo just fine, but I wasn't impressed by spellstutter outside of those areas. Delvers were particularly troublesome when landed early and backed with permission. I changed the sprites for baleful strix and it ran better in the delver matchups, despite often pumping goyfs even higher. Have you found tempo variants to be an issue with Deadeye?
Zegana similarly wasn't very impressive for me, rarely being above a 4/4 draw three unless I had biomancer out (master biomancer being a very good reason to run this deck for the record). Venser was decent, but he definitely shines better in matchups other than the ones I was playing.
Overall, the deck ran rather well until I had to try to close the game out. I'd consider recurring nightmare as another potent engine (in addition) over maybe a witness? Thoughts on any of this?
Yeah. Your overall read of the deck seems accurate -- it's specifically designed to fight control/combo, because if there's a high enough aggro presence (I consider tempo to be a form of aggro, personally), you want either Rector or Scapewish instead. Like, in my testing so far, I've found Sprites to be lacking outside of control/combo. If you run into anything even slightly aggressive, they aren't good anymore (looking at you, Jund -- although Delver is a good example too). However, I'm not sure that cutting them for Strix is the correct call, since the Sprites are your second line of defense against combo (after Therapy in the first seed).
At the point at which I feel that we're in a transient metagame, with the aggro/tempo decks making a reappearance, then I would consider having 4x of something in the sideboard, to switch out 1-for-1 with the Sprites. I'm not sure what the best option would be there, but it seems reasonable to be able to trade the Sprites up, as it were, when their unique talents are not required.
How is Zegana a 4/4 Draw 3? Wouldn't she be a 4/4 Draw 4, in that instance? Or am I misunderstanding how she works?
How was Biomancer for you, in more specifics? Obviously you liked him -- but go into more detail.
I've definitely considered Nightmare, and I can agree that it feels like the deck needs an additional way to end the game. I still say that I would kill to have Vendilion Clique in the deck, since you can drop her turn 2 after Therapy/Explorer shenanigans, she's a potent clock and additional disruption -- who also happens to play very nicely with Spellstutter, Deadeye, and Biomancer (flying flash 5/3 anyone?). I've also been missing Frost Titan in testing, since he was the deck's primary "warrior" type card. When the time comes to bring the hurt, Frosty was usually the gentleman in charge.
I'm definitely not convinced that the 6-drop package of Deadeye/Primeval/Zegana is where we want to be. Not sure what we do want, though.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Deranged Hermit looks sexy with Biomancer and blinks.
But then you want Recurring Nightmare even more.
Also, Kozilek's Predator and other eldrazi drones.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eq.firemind
I've actually considered Hermit a few times for this specific list. It's a bit of a corner case, but if you manage to get Hermit paired with Deadeye, you can flicker the Hermit in response to the Echo trigger and end up not paying anything for it. That makes Hermit's drawback substantially lessened, IMO -- and the list does currently run Two Towers, so worst case you can just sac him, Stronghold him, and replay him. Spitting out 4/4 squirrels with a Biomancer out seems decent.
The issue with Recurring Nightmare in this list IMO is that you don't have a way to find it. You just have to stick it in there and hope to hit it the hard way. You could run Diabolic Intent, but you want the board cluttered with dudes...not sacrificing them. You could also run Long-term Plans, but that becomes a question of space.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
How is Zegana a 4/4 Draw 3? Wouldn't she be a 4/4 Draw 4, in that instance? Or am I misunderstanding how she works?
How was Biomancer for you, in more specifics? Obviously you liked him -- but go into more detail.
I've definitely considered Nightmare, and I can agree that it feels like the deck needs an additional way to end the game. I still say that I would kill to have Vendilion Clique in the deck, since you can drop her turn 2 after Therapy/Explorer shenanigans, she's a potent clock and additional disruption -- who also happens to play very nicely with Spellstutter, Deadeye, and Biomancer (flying flash 5/3 anyone?). I've also been missing Frost Titan in testing, since he was the deck's primary "warrior" type card. When the time comes to bring the hurt, Frosty was usually the gentleman in charge.
I'm definitely not convinced that the 6-drop package of Deadeye/Primeval/Zegana is where we want to be. Not sure what we do want, though.
Yeah, completely a typo on Zegana draw. Obviously she is really good should you get thragtusk/primeval tiatan/deadeye to stick, but then she feels win more. Landing her on a board of 1/1s or 2/2s is underwhelming. A second thragtusk or a U/B different titan might be preferred (or deranged hermit as suggested)?
Biomancer I have a not-so-secret crush on, but he was able to turn the normally weaker top decks late game of coiling oracle/explorer into more than just value creatures. Being able to double block a goyf to trade either of them for it is rather nice, as is venser being a 4/4. there are certainly hands that don't let you do much with him, as you rely on the top of your deck to find creatures after you play him. I often found myself GSZ a turn later to just get thragtusk or acidic slime. Certainly more can be done to maximize his impact.
Clique would be very strong here, I think, and would certainly boost Zegana's potential by having reasonably sized creatures in the 3-4 drop slot. The list feels very tight though, I wouldn't know what to drop to make room. Even the cards I have mentioned to not entirely be impressed with curve well and have functions outside of the brief run through I gave the list.
I'm not really worried about not being able to find nightmare, just having another bomb will probably put the density of them where I feel more comfortable.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
3 sensei's divining top
1 eternal witness
1 wolfir silverheart
4 spellstutter sprite
2 vendilion clique
2 venser, shaper savant
1 glen elendra archmage
3 veteran explorer
3 pernicious deed
4 brainstorm
3 force of will
4 cabal therapy
2 green sun's zenith
3 living wish
2 Jace, the mind sculptor
1 bayou
3 forest
3 island
4 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
1 swamp
2 tropical island
1 underground sea
4 verdant catacombs
SB:
1 deadeye navigator
1 eternal witness
1 thragtusk
1 veteran explorer
1 vampire hexmage
1 scavenging ooze
1 pernicious deed
3 counterbalance
1 force of will
2 surgical extraction
1 bojuka bog
1 karakas
This is my take on this intresting path of nic fit! So far it's been working out greatly ;) Right now the list obv has its issues vs tempo/aggro. Imo that must be the whole point of developing a new nic fit list, IE making it much stronger in the anti combo department while still maintaining its inherit strength vs tempo/manadenial. And currently it seems that the reduction of greenzun/veteran making it lack consistancy has made it perhaps to weak vs aggro/tempo. Therefore it could still use more tuning however i find it exceptionally hard to modify currently without removing the forces (blue count) which i feel is somehow the point of playing this version of nic fit.
I would really like to test more with the forces since i feel that nic fit's weakest link is its game1 vs unknown deck. Cabal therapy is just so much better g2, and if you somehow manage to wait until you fire off ur first cabals ur in so much better shape vs the unknown decks. Force + spellstrutter partially allows you to wait. With all the bounce (venser/jace) and just general opponent revealing cards (mystic/delvers/ringleader etc) together with Vindilion revealing, cabals is also very much live even in the later stages of the game.
The different take of this deck is that it whats to have enough early game disruption that it dosnt necesessarily have to fire off explorers into the unknown which i feel is also is potentially very strong.
Considering its lategame bombs i feel that deadeye is more than enough, and no matter what you pair it with it should pretty much always seal you the deal. I cannot understand why you would like to include pieces like zegana/palinchron, biomancer, for me all those are just winmore and very slow combo pieces. I mean in what situations do you really want a biomancer? The way i see this deck is that early game you want disruption or ramp, from which u must assume that vs most decks in order to regain the loss of tempo you have to deed. After deed you wanna lay down ur threats or control elements depending on what style you wish to proceed to end the game. Biomancer imo falls into the vacuum category in between IE neither do you wanna play him before deed nor do you wanna play him after deed, since by then ur essentially out of cards, and you need to topdeck a fellow in order to get value from the fellaw. I mean i dont see many scenarios where he can help you stabilize board predeed.
I did however try to play wolfir for the slot just for some testing since hes very much a superfast clock post deed and hes a very nice combat trick with all ur flashing dudes, hes espcially nice since most ur dudes are also flying :). What he also might do although rather unlikely is that he might help you stabilize predeed. Although im not entirely sold on him as of yet. I also felt to try out glen elendra which has been okish, although i feel shes also a superstrong postdeed drop and might fill wholes vs things like scapewish where you pretty much need ur reusable counterspell, since shes very strong with bounce. Shes also helps to stabilize predeed since shes got persist and flyes, so she can buy you a turn, she also triggers ur spellstrutter and is exceptional vs some combo if you manage to disrupt early game, shes also a bluecard for force which is essential :).
I'm actually thinking however of including rapid hybridization since its pitchable to force, it can ramp you with exlorer and add token. And it can remove annoying creatures predeed or postdeed like deathrites/confidant etc while the token easily dies to deed, or bounce :). This since atm the deck is still weak vs tempo, but still wants to remain blueheavy for forces.
And i love your work on this archetype aHood! Although you are really optimistic about your control into combo deck, vintage style, (although miracle rip/helm essentially is) I'm still doubtful since i believe for these control archetypes you need all your cards to be good on their own. It's exceptionally refreshing though with some1 who really is putting lots of work into develping NEW THINGS instead of sticking to this same old.
What say you ? ;)
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drfontaine
3 sensei's divining top
1 eternal witness
1 wolfir silverheart
4 spellstutter sprite
2 vendilion clique
2 venser, shaper savant
1 glen elendra archmage
3 veteran explorer
3 pernicious deed
4 brainstorm
3 force of will
4 cabal therapy
2 green sun's zenith
3 living wish
2 Jace, the mind sculptor
1 bayou
3 forest
3 island
4 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
1 swamp
2 tropical island
1 underground sea
4 verdant catacombs
SB:
1 deadeye navigator
1 eternal witness
1 thragtusk
1 veteran explorer
1 vampire hexmage
1 scavenging ooze
1 pernicious deed
3 counterbalance
1 force of will
2 surgical extraction
1 bojuka bog
1 karakas
This is my take on this intresting path of nic fit! So far it's been working out greatly ;) Right now the list obv has its issues vs tempo/aggro. Imo that must be the whole point of developing a new nic fit list, IE making it much stronger in the anti combo department while still maintaining its inherit strength vs tempo/manadenial. And currently it seems that the reduction of greenzun/veteran making it lack consistancy has made it perhaps to weak vs aggro/tempo. Therefore it could still use more tuning however i find it exceptionally hard to modify currently without removing the forces (blue count) which i feel is somehow the point of playing this version of nic fit.
I would really like to test more with the forces since i feel that nic fit's weakest link is its game1 vs unknown deck. Cabal therapy is just so much better g2, and if you somehow manage to wait until you fire off ur first cabals ur in so much better shape vs the unknown decks. Force + spellstrutter partially allows you to wait. With all the bounce (venser/jace) and just general opponent revealing cards (mystic/delvers/ringleader etc) together with Vindilion revealing, cabals is also very much live even in the later stages of the game.
The different take of this deck is that it whats to have enough early game disruption that it dosnt necesessarily have to fire off explorers into the unknown which i feel is also is potentially very strong.
Considering its lategame bombs i feel that deadeye is more than enough, and no matter what you pair it with it should pretty much always seal you the deal. I cannot understand why you would like to include pieces like zegana/palinchron, biomancer, for me all those are just winmore and very slow combo pieces. I mean in what situations do you really want a biomancer? The way i see this deck is that early game you want disruption or ramp, from which u must assume that vs most decks in order to regain the loss of tempo you have to deed. After deed you wanna lay down ur threats or control elements depending on what style you wish to proceed to end the game. Biomancer imo falls into the vacuum category in between IE neither do you wanna play him before deed nor do you wanna play him after deed, since by then ur essentially out of cards, and you need to topdeck a fellow in order to get value from the fellaw. I mean i dont see many scenarios where he can help you stabilize board predeed.
I did however try to play wolfir for the slot just for some testing since hes very much a superfast clock post deed and hes a very nice combat trick with all ur flashing dudes, hes espcially nice since most ur dudes are also flying :). What he also might do although rather unlikely is that he might help you stabilize predeed. Although im not entirely sold on him as of yet. I also felt to try out glen elendra which has been okish, although i feel shes also a superstrong postdeed drop and might fill wholes vs things like scapewish where you pretty much need ur reusable counterspell, since shes very strong with bounce. Shes also helps to stabilize predeed since shes got persist and flyes, so she can buy you a turn, she also triggers ur spellstrutter and is exceptional vs some combo if you manage to disrupt early game, shes also a bluecard for force which is essential :).
I'm actually thinking however of including rapid hybridization since its pitchable to force, it can ramp you with exlorer and add token. And it can remove annoying creatures predeed or postdeed like deathrites/confidant etc while the token easily dies to deed, or bounce :). This since atm the deck is still weak vs tempo, but still wants to remain blueheavy for forces.
And i love your work on this archetype aHood! Although you are really optimistic about your control into combo deck, vintage style, (although miracle rip/helm essentially is) I'm still doubtful since i believe for these control archetypes you need all your cards to be good on their own. It's exceptionally refreshing though with some1 who really is putting lots of work into develping NEW THINGS instead of sticking to this same old.
What say you ? ;)
I think there's a lot of good ideas here, but that you're probably unnecessarily hobbling yourself by playing The Good Cards.
Things I like:
Glen Elendra -- I have a not-so-secret crush on this card, and I have had since the days of Bant Survival. It plays well with Spellstutter, it's a hard-counter for any non-creature thing (which is usually the category that Nic Fit hates: see Jace TMS, Liliana/Veil, anything from storm, Show and Tell, etc), and it forms a nice pseudo-lock with Deadeye (flickering gets rid of the persist counter). At the same time, I don't know what Glen Elendra is actively good enough. She's really expensive, and she occupies much the same space as Venser does. She's probably fine as a 1-of to test with and see how she works.
Wolfir Silverheart -- This makes all the sense in the world with our higher number of flash creatures, and fulfills the "3rd 4-drop" slot despite not being a 4-drop. I regard Biomancer as the best chance that BUG has at replicating the Power 4-drop slot from the other lists (Rector and Huntmaster), but I don't think Biomancer is good enough / pushed enough to actually warrant a 3rd copy. Wolfir does what we want Biomancer to do....arguably better. I don't think that we're to the point where we can afford to cut Biomancer, though.
Room for V. Clique -- I wanttttttttttt it.
Things I don't like:
The Good Cards. Brainstorm and Jace are a deckbuilding disease. Jace will never be as good here as he is in something like Tao's Jace Fit, let alone a "real" Jace deck like BUGstill or Esperblade. Brainstorm is a powerful 1-shot, but it's actively worse than Top, because you can do Top as many times as you want.
The Wishes. I tried them, and didn't like them. I'd rather have the dudes maindeck and have an actual sideboard. One of the strengths of running blue, aside from Force of Will, is that you get to run more stack-based interaction in the sideboard.
If you cut Brainstorm, Jace, and Wish, you get 9 slots. That can be the 4th Explorer, the 3rd Green Sun, Thragtusk, Empath, Deadeye, and any other 4 creatures you want, which seems way better to me.
The strength of Biomancer, to me, is that he provides you a legitimate way to win the game, by making all of your utility 1/1s into sizable threats.
What are everyone's thoughts on Fathom Mage as a backup draw engine, perhaps instead of Zegana? Mage is cheaper and relies less on having big dudes in play already. The primary issue with Mage is that she might be a little harder to evolve. Witness evolves her, as does Venser and Clique, Biomancer is silly with her, and then the obvious 6-drops. Something else that might serve to help evolve her while not being bad for the deck would be Wall of Blossoms. I think that she's good enough to be worthy of discussing, but I'm not sure that I think she's good enough to actually test.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
I think there's a lot of good ideas here, but that you're probably unnecessarily hobbling yourself by playing The Good Cards.
Things I like:
Glen Elendra -- I have a not-so-secret crush on this card, and I have had since the days of Bant Survival. It plays well with Spellstutter, it's a hard-counter for any non-creature thing (which is usually the category that Nic Fit hates: see Jace TMS, Liliana/Veil, anything from storm, Show and Tell, etc), and it forms a nice pseudo-lock with Deadeye (flickering gets rid of the persist counter). At the same time, I don't know what Glen Elendra is actively good enough. She's really expensive, and she occupies much the same space as Venser does. She's probably fine as a 1-of to test with and see how she works.
Wolfir Silverheart -- This makes all the sense in the world with our higher number of flash creatures, and fulfills the "3rd 4-drop" slot despite not being a 4-drop. I regard Biomancer as the best chance that BUG has at replicating the Power 4-drop slot from the other lists (Rector and Huntmaster), but I don't think Biomancer is good enough / pushed enough to actually warrant a 3rd copy. Wolfir does what we want Biomancer to do....arguably better. I don't think that we're to the point where we can afford to cut Biomancer, though.
Room for V. Clique -- I wanttttttttttt it.
Things I don't like:
The Good Cards. Brainstorm and Jace are a deckbuilding disease. Jace will never be as good here as he is in something like Tao's Jace Fit, let alone a "real" Jace deck like BUGstill or Esperblade. Brainstorm is a powerful 1-shot, but it's actively worse than Top, because you can do Top as many times as you want.
The Wishes. I tried them, and didn't like them. I'd rather have the dudes maindeck and have an actual sideboard. One of the strengths of running blue, aside from Force of Will, is that you get to run more stack-based interaction in the sideboard.
If you cut Brainstorm, Jace, and Wish, you get 9 slots. That can be the 4th Explorer, the 3rd Green Sun, Thragtusk, Empath, Deadeye, and any other 4 creatures you want, which seems way better to me.
The strength of Biomancer, to me, is that he provides you a legitimate way to win the game, by making all of your utility 1/1s into sizable threats.
What are everyone's thoughts on Fathom Mage as a backup draw engine, perhaps instead of Zegana? Mage is cheaper and relies less on having big dudes in play already. The primary issue with Mage is that she might be a little harder to evolve. Witness evolves her, as does Venser and Clique, Biomancer is silly with her, and then the obvious 6-drops. Something else that might serve to help evolve her while not being bad for the deck would be Wall of Blossoms. I think that she's good enough to be worthy of discussing, but I'm not sure that I think she's good enough to actually test.
Thanks alot for your input as always ahod!
Considering the disease include i completly agree that jace will never be half as good as in other decks, that dosnt mean i didnt put alot of thought into including him nor brainstorm. Thing is you need the bluecount, which is the same reason i like the wish package, it saves slots. You lose tempo but add flex, and saves you from clogged hands. Brainstorm is also super with the counterbalance SB. Which for me makes perfect sense for BUG fit, since its exactly the card you want in matchups where deed is bad, which is really the only anti synergistic card with cb in main.
Im def open to suggestions concerning jace slots, however i need b count, want something that survives deed and helps predeed, and dosnt clog. Therefore jace makes somewhat sense. I dont consider biomancer nor fathom mage no matter hos much i like the beautiful cards. They wont help me when im behind.
Flash btw i think is very nice with veteran since when times he chumps cause opp decides they wanna attack him you can use the mana and respond with ur flash creatures :).
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardd...product=299990
Korean Explorer at 16 (on sale) at SCG. Go nuts, people.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
With all those slots, and the desire for card advantage and blue count, why not do something like 3 coiling oracle, 3 baleful strix? They dont draw you 6 cards like Zengra will do on rare occasion, but They net you a card every time, help ramp and stop creatures respectively, can be FoW pitched, and drawing them later in the game with a biomancer out is obviously awesome. Strix also does well with Wolfir Silverheart.
I can see the argument for no Jace as valid, he does much better in reactive decks that pack tons of permission (UWx, BUGstill, etc). But Brainstorm is still really good. At its worst it's a blue card that replaces itself eot, at its best it's ancestral visions or discard protection. I still think 4of is good idea.
I also tried your scapeshift modifications. Regardless of the Pneedles in the SB, I really liked swapping decays for more ramp doods. Avenger of zendikar won me some games that I probably* would have lost of otherwise. However, I never needed him because valakuts were not an option, I just saw GSZ before shifts/BWs those games. I dont think Ill be running him (cutting to 60 cards), but if not being able to valakut becomes a common problem I can see his justification. When he was good, he was good. Im not sure about my exact SB, but Ill be playing something very similar to that list tomorrow.
Are you going to be playing deadeye at mythic tomorrow? In the state that it is at now, it looks much better.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Glen Elendra does play pretty well with Biomancer for a soft lock of sorts unless I'm missing something, though that seems really win-more.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Undomian
Glen Elendra does play pretty well with Biomancer for a soft lock of sorts unless I'm missing something, though that seems really win-more.
I didn't even think of that. Corner-case, to be sure -- but it's at least a half a point in Glen Elendra's favor.
Although, I will note that this gets me wondering yet again why we've never tried to port Melira Pod from Modern into a Nic Fit shell. I've wondered this like eight times, thought about it for half a sec, gave it a "huh," and moved on with my life. One of these days I should probably put more thought into that lol.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I think if any color of nic fit should be playing Pod, its BUG. With BS and instant speed permission, blue is the only color that can really defend the pod engine (and the graveyard) even if white or red have "better" creatures to be pod'd into.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
With all those slots, and the desire for card advantage and blue count, why not do something like 3 coiling oracle, 3 baleful strix? They dont draw you 6 cards like Zengra will do on rare occasion, but They net you a card every time, help ramp and stop creatures respectively, can be FoW pitched, and drawing them later in the game with a biomancer out is obviously awesome. Strix also does well with Wolfir Silverheart.
I can see the argument for no Jace as valid, he does much better in reactive decks that pack tons of permission (UWx, BUGstill, etc). But Brainstorm is still really good. At its worst it's a blue card that replaces itself eot, at its best it's ancestral visions or discard protection. I still think 4of is good idea.
Strixes are probably useful, however they are at their best when protecting pws which is not really plan a. They are also cantrip for annoying mana in some matchups, and in moar cases id prefer not to tap out, representing sprite or counter or just save mana for top, they ofc also die to deed. Oracle i feel is only ok when it ramps, but alot of time he wont even be able to chump cause flying and unless i aint got no cabal in gy, he feels lacking but perhaps i should test more.
Right now im actually considering remand as a strong contender to improve the midrange matchups. Hard matchups atm include jund and bug tempo etc, vs those i can remand Lily, confidant, hymn etc and it would be great! I like the synergy with cabal and considering nic fits very strong topdeckmode i dont mind to reduce its power a bit. I feel the card should be ok in all mu, while beeing strong vs midrange where the deck really needs help! And i would just love to remand fow ;)!
I also really wanna test cryptic command since its synergy with the deck is strong.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Snapped that right up along with a bunch of foreign stuff because it's ALL ON SALE. Thanks!
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
@TheArchitect and Arianrhod
Pod is an engine that requires a lot of fuel. You need to have a lot of creatures available that are both good on their own and grant enough value to be worth podding out. In modern, this works great because the format is extremely combo light (quasi non-existent) and/or the combos aren't fast enough/easy to protect which makes ramp and permanent based approaches much more reliable strategies. It also works because exile removal is more scarce and usually comes at a hefty price (PtE) making Persist and Undying great value mechanics. Cards like Kitchen Finks are extremely good on their own because of all the above + the fact that it gains life, which is highly relevant in a shockland format. While Legacy holds the bigger card pool, it doesn't however, allow you to play 3-4 colors safely unlike modern where your creature pool is most limited by the time of their release rather than their mana cost. When creatures aren't running the format, Pod's uses become very limited. Trying to squeeze in a permission/disruption/removal suite not in creature form is a great way to poke holes at your gas tank before a long trip.
On the topic of Brainstorm and Jace being deck-building diseases. I couldn't disagree more. Brainstorm and Jace are cards that Nic Fit needs more so than most decks playing them in the first place. Asserting that they don't belong in this deck only shows how misunderstood their application is. A deck-building disease would be something along the lines of desperately trying to make a card that goes against the fundamental principles of your deck strategy because it can be potentially game-breaking in the advent that your opponent has none of the conventional answers or that you can keep them in check via other cards (YAWN: You.Are.Winning.Now). I have been reading this forum lately with my forehead stuck to my palms and felt like some things needed to be reminded. I will try to use more colors because the trend seems to be towards cute things.
What makes Nic Fit good:
-Asymmetrical ramp of two basic lands or more. When this effect is symmetrical, it becomes tempo for card disadvantage and Nic Fit's core strategy loses value. Asymmetrical has two meanings here:
1) Your opponent does not have 2 basics to fetch;
2) Your opponent does not have cards that abuse a higher land count.
-The presence of decks affected by board wipes in your metagame, namely Deed. There is no equivalent to Pernicious Deed against decks that don't use permanents to win (Mind Twist is banned). Nic Fit being green and black at its core only offers limited disruption against combo decks. If you find yourself siding them out often, play another deck!
-The presence and availability of game-breaking spells (bombs). Usually the higher the mana cost, the greater the effect. Inversely, the greater the mana cost, the higher the chances of it being a dead card. This is mostly avoided by packing the least copies possible but having a reliable way to find them. Currently, our best tools to accomplish that purpose are Green Sun's Zenith, Brainstorm, and Jace. The latter is often both a tool and an agent which leads to a loop that constantly brings you more means of winning a game.
Take Caleb D. for example, he built Nic Fit when the metagame was ripe for a Deed.dec (AKA: Maverick/RUG era), he tried to make it a better deck by including what it lacked compared to the other competitive control decks (Brainstorm and Jace), and he finally moved on to something else when combo and control re-emerged and FoW was too much of a stretch for Nic Fit (SnT/Miracle era).
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
Are you going to be playing deadeye at mythic tomorrow? In the state that it is at now, it looks much better.
On a related note, anyone going to Indy? I do believe I will be playing Rector on Sunday.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I agree with Qweerios. I'd even say Jace is fantastic in any version of Nic Fit with Blue - whether it's Chrono, BUG, Future Sight, Deadeye. The bombs in Nic Fit are there either to provide huge card advantage (Future Sight, for example), win conditions (fat creatures, for example), or lock components (like Moat) or planeswalkers. Is there any other card that fits all these criteria for 4 mana? Some will fit 2 or even 3, but not for just 4 mana. (I consider Jace's +2 a soft lock because of the insane difficulty of an opponent actually winning once you start ticking him up.) Jace is the Burning Wish/Scapewish for blue. Lots of versatility, card advantage, stalling, kills enemy Jaces, soft lock component, win-condition, can replay comes-into-play triggers if necessary, can return your creature before popping a Deed, etc. Of course, once you've got Jace, Strix looks like a really good idea. Jace just does a lot, even if he is cliche.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I agree with everything qweerios said.
- the claim that Brainstorm is bad in Nic Fit is ludicrous. Early on it finds you Therapies, Lands and Explorers, in the late game it shuffles them away. In the late game it finds you bombs, in the early game it shuffles them away. Against Combo it finds you disruption and shuffles away Abrupt Decay, against a Tempo deck that spits out its hand it finds you Abrupt Decay and shuffles away Discard. Post board it increases the number of SB cards you draw. Brainstorm is the best card ever and does everything you want. At the absolutely worst it cycles for one mana.
- Jace is awesome. Clear 4-off. Who needs synergy when you have Jace? Isochron Scepter with Brainstorm imprinted, that is Jace's synergy.
- Pod is extremely difficult to get to work properly. The only way I see it getting used is a a 1-of or a 2-of in a deck that naturally plays a solid creature curve (for example with Huntmaster or Rector on CMC 4). I won't say it is impossible to make a dedicated Pod list with 3 or 4 Pods, but it is hard because it puts so much restraints on the deck building. I tried but have given up on it.
