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i think the best way here is to start with imp. if you do however want to start with a draw2 spell, then you should start with faithless first. coliseum can always cast your blue spells and you never know how grindy a game can get.
the correct play is definitely the imp, as it lets you deal with some unlucky dredges the most easily.
I would loot first. With all those draw spells there's no reason to not test the waters. If there were ichorids and bridges in hand i would lead with imp, otherwise the card advantage is too important.
Arguing this hand is academic. Since outside of the weak dredger it's perfect. You start first on what your opponent is on. Obviously Blue. How many Blue decks in Legacy keep a hand without a T1 play? Very few. With the Fetch being a Misty, it's fair to assume that they are playing Green. Though obviously that's just a guess. But with those points in mind, while I can't put them on a deck, I can put them on cards. My first assumption would be Pierce, with Stifle a distant second.
With that in mind, you have to guess that they are less likely to have removal than countermagic. Especially since those two colors don't have removal. You also have a weak dredger, and you want to get the most value out of him. With your draw already not getting one, banking on another being in your top two is not an acceptable risk in this situation.
You want to lead on Mine. If they are on Waste, which is a good possibility, you want the land that only can be used twice more to go. You then play PImp. If they are on Pierce or Stifle, they won't respond and you pass. If they Daze, you are in amazing shape since they have zero board, and you play LED after clearing their mana. They only possible negative outcome here is if they kill PImp EOT, and you do not find another dredger in your first four during draw. Otherwise on your turn you dredge, discard Thug, play Confluence, play LED, and see what happens from there.
Only bad outcome is if you don't hit a dredger during your draw, then they counter twice on that turn. It's a very small chance of both happening, and you get out of it if your first loot finds a dredger anyway. Unless they also can Waste you, then counter LED, and counter your first loot. After you bricked on dredger. And they killed your Pimp so you couldn't just re-use Thug.
Just shake their hand then.
My line would be similar to Izor but instead of Confluence, I would play Gemstone Mine instead so that I would still have a more permanent mana source in Mana Confluence if they play and activate Wasteland on their next turn.
So many variables. I like Parcher's assessment on misty being counter magic rather than removal and most likely pierce. A deck leading with misty could also be storm. This is good talk.
Good work, people. Such parlays may be academic to some but are quite useful to me when I'm stuck testing in solo mode. It opens up new lines of thinking for me, so well done.
Processing it all, I tend to side with the Gemstone Mine, Putrid Imp, pass line. It's probably appropriate to think of an upcoming Spell Pierce and Wasteland since their clock hasn't started. Prior to discussion, I would likely have led with Gemstone Mine, Lion's Eye Diamond, and a draw spell. I don't think this makes as much sense since their play shows we don't need to blow up now, and can thus take our first two turns into consideration at the same time.
Good work. Perhaps we'll do another one later.
Hi, so this is my first time posting but I've been lurking for months. Figured I might as well share what I'm working with.
// 4 Artifact
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
// 23 Creature
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
3 Prized Amalgam
4 Narcomoeba
// 4 Enchantment
4 Bridge from Below
// 12 Land
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City of Brass
// 17 Sorcery
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Dread Return
// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Ashen Rider
SB: 1 Ashen Ghoul
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Unmask
SB: 1 Dread Return
It's been pretty good so far. If I can remember how to sideboard correctly I'm usually fine. The current MVPs have been Amalgam and Gitaxian Probe + Cabal Therapies. I'm curious why no third amalgam. I've tried main deck fatties, but there were several points in multiple games where if they had been amalgam, I would be infinitely closer to winning the game and not durdling to find my engine. Along those same lines, I cut breakthrough and a cephalid coliseum because i got sick of having to mulligan hands away that would be otherwise keep-able. In return probe therapy gives a second angle of attack and improves a lot of otherwise medium game 1s, and the extra rainbow land helps just to play magic.
I've gotten some flak for no on board hate, but it seems better to just be fearless right now. Out of all the hate available in the format, they either all do something when they enter, or the removal forces them to crack it. If i had the anti hate in hand and the mana to cast it, that's great! But that still doesn't prevent the tempo loss from an auto cracked piece of hate, or a triggered ability like from Rest in Peace. In addition I've always gotten the smackdown from 20 to 0 if I had to dig for the anti hate piece. So I'd rather just rip it out of their hand post board or counter it before it hits the table.
So that's what I have, if anyone wants to yell at me for something very obvious I've missed please feel free to do so. Also is there a dredge discord, and if so can someone post the invite link?
Ive always run 4 coliseum and rarely upset when i see it in my opener, an uncounterable loot for three is quite good. Thirteen land is a good starting point, twelve seems just short. Also, i dont understand cutting breakthrough. A good player will counter your first looting effect, if your first spell resolves (unless opponent draws into counter magic) more than likely you'll be able to breakthrough on turn two, daze proof providing a land drop mind you. Very often cabal therapy is what wins games and a turn two breakthrough is what fills our yard with all the necessities to tear apart our opponents hand and amass an army of zombies. Not to mention playing three amalgam is at risk of getting stuck in hand territory, breakthrough is another way of getting things in your hand into the grave.
I have always felt probe in dredge is sort of a mistake, there are only so many cards we care about so of all the therapy decks in the forma we are probably the best at blind naming. For that reason I prefer street wraith as it is more food for ichorid and it can also counter a surgical or deathrite activation on any of the dredgers. I'm also biased to 4 firestorm in the sideboard because of deathrite.
A few questions that will hopefully provoke thoughtful discussion:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfie
1) Do you feel that exchanging Breakthrough for Gitaxian Probe is a fair speed sacrifice? By this I mean do you view losing three cards drawn to be outweighed by the ability to see what to name with Cabal Therapy?
2) Do you find that you are still able to outrace Deathrite Shaman in situations where it's appropriate to do so?
3) In a similar vein, are you playing your deck in a meta where you're familiar with most of the players and decks, or in larger tournaments with many unknowns?
4) Finally, do you believe that you still have enough discard outlets with zero Breakthrough and two Putrid Imp?
I focus on Deathrite Shaman because it seems to be the most prevalent type of stumbling block. Here, I offer a bit of a misnomer: I find it's always appropriate to outrace Deathrite Shaman. So, I want to do so by drawing a high amount of cards. I don't get to do that with Gitaxian Probe. Sure, I get to see their hand, but it doesn't match up with the way that I want to play Cabal Therapy. When I play it, I either want to strip stuff that speeds their clock (most of the times) or clear the way for my draw spell (sometimes). When the former is true, I often find myself in a state where I'm pretty sure about what I want to name anyway. In the latter cases, I discover that a bigger draw spell might just do the job anyway, either by resolving with a larger effect or drawing out a counter spell. Additionally, I find that doing so is less effective when I can't double down on Cabal Therapy with Putrid Imp and that's difficult with only two in the deck.
I might consider Gitaxian Probe in an unknown or larger meta when figuring stuff out in game one is more important, but less so when my scene is local, known players. So keep that in mind as well.
I find that a configuration like yours lacks the flow that I want to get the job done quickly. So if it's different for you, I'd like to hear about your experience. Thanks.
So like take me with a grain of salt, I'm a pretty average player. I'm typically playing at both local legacy events when I'm not bombarded by schoolwork or other responsibilities. I'll also make the effort to go to larger legacy events and the occasional side event at a GP if it's within a reasonable distance. My locals are stacked to be fair, I constantly feel like I'm the worst player there and that I'm winning because I'm extremely lucky rather than my ability to play to my outs. I think the area I've been struggling the most with are decks I don't have experience in the match-up. If I don't see them often enough, I'm not going to know how to play and I just sorta flounder. I should also mention that i cannot blind therapy consistently. Like at all. I'm really bad at blind naming with cabal therapy. I don't think I can stress this enough honestly. I play on a super intuitive level, playing magic well means I can't think about playing magic. This is the exact opposite of playing a blind therapy, so for me this will more or less be random guessing unless i can get the read on my opponent before they sit down. Even then, it will still be more or less random for me.
So far I haven't noticed a decrease in "speed." If anything it's the opposite, but i think this has more to do with the third amalgam than anything. I get the feeling I'm super aggressive with my amalgams when others think shouldn't be. I'll frequently swing like a madman into my opponent's board of early game threats like flipped Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shamans, Mother of Runes, Thalias, or Matter Reshapers, when I have multiple bridges sitting in my graveyard but in my mind this is perfectly reasonable because outside of elves, Decks that run Deathrite Shaman and other small bodies don't really know how to handle a 3/3 that well, let alone multiple. Like don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't play x or y way, I'm trying to say I want to be playing to my outs.
My issue with breakthrough specifically is how inconsistent of a card it is. The optimal way to play Breaktrhough is after a somewhat established graveyard. This means it's usually coming down turn 2 or later when we're already kind of playing magic. The reason this matters at all is same reason why I haven't be scared of Deathrite Shaman in a long time. It isn't fair to say the best way to play around Deathrite Shaman is to race it, the best way to play around it is to overwhelm it, usually. Against a lot of decks they can't handle multiple dredgers, or multiple ichorid triggers. Breakthrough doesn't line up vs this plan very well since we need to not see wasteland, daze, force, or cabal therapy for it to work. This shouldn't be an exhaustive list of "how to stop dredge and why breaktrhough isn't my favorite card for this scenario" but how many cards stop both of these plans. Without a dredger in the yard, the amount of resources you have available to you is effectively n+4, but without the ability to keep meaningful amounts of cards for future turns. In the scenario of "our early game loot got forced" I'd much rather have the free spell, we're not coming back with just a breakthrough. Gitaxian probe is just more synergistic with looters. Loot into probe comes down the same turn you loot. This scenario gives our opponent less time to interact, often with Deathrite Shaman staring down as a summoning sick 1/2. This doesn't begin to cover the amount of zig vs zag probe has either with the rest of our deck.
Putrid imp is a fantastic magic card. I love seeing him, but I had to make concessions to the blue count for force of will post board. If i were to play a 3rd, I'd slot him in the slot with ashen ghoul. I don't think I would play more of him though. I'm not a fan of seeing multiple in the hand.
This was all of us when we began playing Cabal Therapy. Knowing what to name when is a learned skill. A good start is this article by Michael where he explains his approach in various situations. Using his advice as a starting point, I recommend that you take a look at the popular decks and their common lists, note their best cards, and figure out which card you want to hit the most in your game situation. You will learn with time and experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfie
Others can chime in on the particulars of your deck construction.
As a general rule for dredge I name counter spells, usually force of will, if I haven't really established dredging. I name removal spells first if i have gotten going. Removal spells are basically all you care about in game 1 because they can target their own creatures to exile bridges. Knowing what to name at that point is usually a matter of looking at their dual lands and making the best guess possible. Usually fatal push or abrupt decay out of black decks, lightning bolt for red, and swords to plowshares for white.
In game 2 just go for hate cards. If a white player kept a 7 or 6 card hand my first name is always Rest In Peace. With delver decks surgical extraction is the hate of choice, so that is what I name.
Wolfie, I'm glad this conversation has been getting opened up concerning Probe. Honestly, I'm a big fan of angling Dredge into this disruptive beatdown machine that can fight through random hate game 1, or just shred apart hands for value. The core of Probe/Therapy/Pimp is really great at tearing through opponents hands and giving you enough time to completely bowl them over. You also make a great point about Probe being solid as a free spell after a loot to stock up the graveyard very suddenly. I've also Probed, cracked LED in response and still got my flashback looting going as always.
What I like most about Probe is the fact that it makes your Force of Wills very strong in blue matchups too. Typically we want to cut the Breakthrough/LED package against countermagic-heavy decks (or at least I have), as we just want to overwhelm them with continuous chains of draw spells rather than blowing our load in one go. But this means Force can't really be boarded in with it, as without Breakthrough our blue count is too low. But with Probe there's some solid synergy with the boarding plan, at least in my experience.
I also think there is something to be said about having on point Therapies. Hate has been getting quite diverse recently, not to mention knowing which cantrips to Therapy away to stop the opponent digging from hate is pretty great too.
I do think 3 Amalgams is a lot though, and would sooner add the 3rd Pimp.
Currently I am still on Breakthrough, but I've been doing a lot of investigation into Probe and have been pleased with it. I think it's a really valid choice with some definite boons. The only thing I'd be wary of is mulligan decisions. Don't keep trap hands just because of Probe Therapy - despite how tempting they seem - you still need to do your usual Dredge thing.
Shout out to 'Sand_Crab' for coming in 14th in Saturday's Legacy Challenge with LED Dredge.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...nge-2017-05-29
Looks like 4th time was the charm; finally collected my byes for GP Vegas. Is anyone else planning on going?
I'll be there with Bazaars on!Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
Nice Job, look forward to hearing how well you do at the GP. Sadly I won't be able to go despite the fact that I'm only going to be 2 hours away in Utah :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
Haha awesome. Hope to see you all you guys there!Quote:
Originally Posted by Oestrus
Aww thats unfortunate. And thank you I'm hoping to do well! Thats the plan anyway. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by LVA
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I have another big tournament for Legacy staples this Sunday so it will be my last serious practice before the event itself. I'm still not set on my sideboard and this will give me the chance to try out a slightly different configuration. I'm pretty much happy with my mainboard. I'll report on how it goes. :)
Best of luck then :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Que