[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by Claymore

A few unorthodox lists recently have started cutting Goyf and KotR for cards that are better vs a Terminus and Deathrite Shaman meta. Check out kikoo's list on the previous page, but I don't know of any lists that have placed without the goyf.

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Just a thought I had...since it is most important to keep Miracles off of double white for Entreat and we already have Wasteland to hit nonbasics (and sometimes KotR to fetch more Wastelands), would it be reasonable to roll with Sinkholes in the sideboard to hit the basic Plains? Or is that far too narrow?

This more or less came up during my last Legacy finals vs Miracles where he was very vocally fetching only Plains to counter the land hate and very vocally fearing the likes of Aven Mindcensor, but only ever had 2 plains out and I believe a lot of Miracles lists only run 2 basic plains anyway.

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I was talking to Dan (nitewolf) at Denver on Day 1 and he said the Sinkhole plan was VERY good against the decks like Esperblade and Miracles. DRS.deck doesn't care about Sinkhole since you're producing mana all the time anyway. These other decks, however, use up to 10 Fetches to ensure they stay on target with dropping consistent mana. Even Vidi in his matches fetches his basics first to ensure stable mana development. Sinkhole kicks this in the teeth and makes higher CMC cards a liability (as you fall prey to Pierce and Daze in the Tempo decks).

I think if you are the Tempo deck, running Hymn (to hit lands in their hand) and Wasteland, then Sinkhole becomes a good card against these decks, but even better when you have taxing counters. I don't think we're a tempo enough of a deck (at least, the common builds being played) that it would make THAT much of a difference in the way Team America is using the card. However, for us, we could use it to, like you said, keep Miracles off a stable double white for Entreat. This doesn't stop them in keeping a Fetch uncracked to fetch a Tundra when they need it, though.

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Not to let the cat out of the bag, but after Carsten Kotter's article yesterday, it's basically out of the bag. Punishing Maverick is quick possibly a deck. Why, you ask? I've been pushing Aven Mindcensor like a champ for the last little while. The card is balls insane against these decks running 10 Fetches and relying on topdecks. Hatebear.deck could be a thing, and the addition of Punishing Fire means you roast the opponent's Deathrite Shamans very nicely.

I was toying with:

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
13

4 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Noble Hierarch
24

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
1 Karakas
3 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
23

This version doesn't have Jitte, which is one thing I don't like, but I need to squeeze the Fires in. There isn't a full set of Thalia since you actually want to cast Fires repeatedly, and Thalia isn't amazing against Miracles (but good in other matchups) so I shaved one.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by kikoo

Knight has been underwhelming for me since Deathrite. It's hard to keep it big enough to survive bolts and block Goyfs against other Deathrite decks (mostly Jund). It's also very bad against all the Lillianas being played right now.

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Just finished playing at a small local. I feel the same way about Knights. With Deathrites everywhere, she stays small almost all the time. It's very frustrating.

I think Lingering Souls is where this deck should be. GP Denver showed us that, just like in Modern, multiple Spirit tokens give Jund a very hard time.

While Knights do stay smaller, they still tutor Wastelands and provide mana correction if need be. I think cutting them is fine depending on the meta, but I'm not ready to cut them yet, since Deathrite still hurts Lingering Souls.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I was talking to Dan (nitewolf) at Denver on Day 1 and he said the Sinkhole plan was VERY good against the decks like Esperblade and Miracles. DRS.deck doesn't care about Sinkhole since you're producing mana all the time anyway. These other decks, however, use up to 10 Fetches to ensure they stay on target with dropping consistent mana. Even Vidi in his matches fetches his basics first to ensure stable mana development. Sinkhole kicks this in the teeth and makes higher CMC cards a liability (as you fall prey to Pierce and Daze in the Tempo decks).

I think if you are the Tempo deck, running Hymn (to hit lands in their hand) and Wasteland, then Sinkhole becomes a good card against these decks, but even better when you have taxing counters. I don't think we're a tempo enough of a deck (at least, the common builds being played) that it would make THAT much of a difference in the way Team America is using the card. However, for us, we could use it to, like you said, keep Miracles off a stable double white for Entreat. This doesn't stop them in keeping a Fetch uncracked to fetch a Tundra when they need it, though.

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Not to let the cat out of the bag, but after Carsten Kotter's article yesterday, it's basically out of the bag. Punishing Maverick is quick possibly a deck. Why, you ask? I've been pushing Aven Mindcensor like a champ for the last little while. The card is balls insane against these decks running 10 Fetches and relying on topdecks. Hatebear.deck could be a thing, and the addition of Punishing Fire means you roast the opponent's Deathrite Shamans very nicely.

I was toying with:

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
13

4 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Noble Hierarch
24

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
1 Karakas
3 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
23

This version doesn't have Jitte, which is one thing I don't like, but I need to squeeze the Fires in. There isn't a full set of Thalia since you actually want to cast Fires repeatedly, and Thalia isn't amazing against Miracles (but good in other matchups) so I shaved one.

-Matt

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PFM is actually a great deck in this meta with so many abrupt decays, jund decks, and all these utility creature decks.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

but I'm not ready to cut them yet, since Deathrite still hurts Lingering Souls.

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DRS is a problem if you have less than 5 mana; but otherwise surly you can just flash it back as soon as you get priority before they have a chance to remove it? You do not get the ability to split tokens over two turns but decks with DRS do not usually have sweepers.

Speaking of Jund decks? How do you guys SB against Jund?

I think against any mirror match (at least, midrange mirror match) I usually take out Discard in favour of actual threats. Why? Well, discard is fine in the early game to disrupt, but as time goes on, you actually want consistent threats. You want every card to either be a threat or an answer. If I were boarding for Jund, I would go:

-3 Thoughtseize
-3 Inquisition
+2 Deed
+1 Elspeth
+1 Ooze
+1 Qasali
+1 Tracker

You're attempting to become the better control deck, and you can be. Sure, you don't have BBE and Liliana, but you can consistently muck their guys, sweep the board, and get in there.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I think against any mirror match (at least, midrange mirror match) I usually take out Discard in favour of actual threats. Why? Well, discard is fine in the early game to disrupt, but as time goes on, you actually want consistent threats. You want every card to either be a threat or an answer. If I were boarding for Jund, I would go:

-3 Thoughtseize
-3 Inquisition
+2 Deed
+1 Elspeth
+1 Ooze
+1 Qasali
+1 Tracker

You're attempting to become the better control deck, and you can be. Sure, you don't have BBE and Liliana, but you can consistently muck their guys, sweep the board, and get in there.

-Matt

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same way i board against BUG, Junk and Jund when using bant.

Yeah I think that is a way to go. Better to have a handfull of threats than discardspells when the hymn hits you.
This is the list I'm playing tomorrow in a small local torney.

4 deathrite shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 tarmogoyf
1 elspeth, knight-errant
1 thrun, the last troll
1 engineered explosives
1 maelstrom pulse
2 inquisition of kozilek

2 sylvan library
2 sensei´s divining top
4 abrupt decay
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 plains
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of ith
1 bojuka bog

SB
3 duress
3 Pithing needle
2 gaddock teeg
2 extirpate
1 scavenging ooze
1 nihil spellbomb
2 pernicious deed
1 Heroes' Reunion

Been liking the Pithing Needle against a lot of stuff for example plainswalkers, SDT, Aether Vial.
Tested the Heroes' Reunion against zoo och RUG and it was quite good. It's good for burn of course. Thinking of using it in the TES matchup as well.

As an aside, does anyone have experience with GP side events? I'm looking to play in a few win-a-boxes and Legacy Challenges at GP Charlotte and I'm curious if it's a normal meta or if I should expect more combo.

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Originally Posted by Claymore

As an aside, does anyone have experience with GP side events? I'm looking to play in a few win-a-boxes and Legacy Challenges at GP Charlotte and I'm curious if it's a normal meta or if I should expect more combo.

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Usually, there are a decent number of combo decks (roughly 20%) and an equal amount of control (i.e., blade/miracles). The rest is fairly random.

So it seems like RUG is still a thing, apparently. It was the deck I lost to twice at Denver (due to awkward draws by me and nut draws by them, but whatever) and it seems like it can still do certain versions of BUG in.

I'm still thinking of retooling my board a bit.

3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Surgical Extraction
+2

Again, Elspeth and Ooze are great, but is that one card going to make the difference? I've drawn it and won and I've not drawn it and won. I need to do more testing against Esperblade, Gobbos, and Jund to see if those two slots should be other cards or not. I really want to fit Chains of Mephistopheles in, but he doesn't do enough against the decks I want to see him in (Miracles and Esper) since I can't bring that many cards out to bring it in.

The real question is: Is there a card that hits both RUG and Esperblade? Ooze comes to mind again, but I'm not sure that's the answer. I know they're two entirely different decks, but I'm just brainstorming.

-Matt

I would say Engineered Explosives to take down Geese or Delver and a variety of tokens, but you already have Pernicious Deed...

Another option would be Carpet of Flowers. Outrace RUG's taxing counters and LD, give yourself extra fuel to overwhelm Esper's counters and force a Bob or Sylvan Library onto the board. I'm not sure how effective it would be at x2, maybe better as x3. I played it in Nic Fit but haven't tested it here against RUG.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

So it seems like RUG is still a thing, apparently. It was the deck I lost to twice at Denver (due to awkward draws by me and nut draws by them, but whatever) and it seems like it can still do certain versions of BUG in.

I'm still thinking of retooling my board a bit.

3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Surgical Extraction
+2

Again, Elspeth and Ooze are great, but is that one card going to make the difference? I've drawn it and won and I've not drawn it and won. I need to do more testing against Esperblade, Gobbos, and Jund to see if those two slots should be other cards or not. I really want to fit Chains of Mephistopheles in, but he doesn't do enough against the decks I want to see him in (Miracles and Esper) since I can't bring that many cards out to bring it in.

The real question is: Is there a card that hits both RUG and Esperblade? Ooze comes to mind again, but I'm not sure that's the answer. I know they're two entirely different decks, but I'm just brainstorming.

-Matt

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Ooze and elspeth both have worked overtime for me in my testing, abd not just vs. RUG. BUG, Jund and any other deathrite deck have a hard time dealing with him and elspeth is beyond decay's reach. I won't be taking them out of my board for the forseeable future. Needle, on the other hand, has been garbage.

I don't see how we lose to RUG, though. Play smart & around daze, and our essentially limitless suite of removal should do the trick.

Stifle/Wasteland decks can be particularly rough on us because we are so dependent upon getting 2 specific colors of mana together. Even Deathrite Shaman isn't a guarantee since he'll typically just eat a bolt before we get any use out of him. Our Wastelands are also particularly bad in this matchup since it'll be rare that we actually mana/color screw them and much more common that it ends up sitting around giving us colorless mana when we need colored mana.

Playing around Daze also isn't always an option when our manabase is being attacked so aggressively.

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

Stifle/Wasteland decks can be particularly rough on us because we are so dependent upon getting 2 specific colors of mana together. Even Deathrite Shaman isn't a guarantee since he'll typically just eat a bolt before we get any use out of him. Our Wastelands are also particularly bad in this matchup since it'll be rare that we actually mana/color screw them and much more common that it ends up sitting around giving us colorless mana when we need colored mana.

Playing around Daze also isn't always an option when our manabase is being attacked so aggressively.

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I disagree, since I think stifle and wasteland can be played around. Yeah you'll be slower at starting, but once we stabilize, we'll lock them out. I've never had issues beating RUG

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lingering Souls
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Gavony Township
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Dark Confidant
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 4 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Sylvan Safekeeper


Played this list at a very small local. While I think the deck is very powerful, it might just be too slow for tournaments. It ends up grinding way too much and can't beat other grindy decks in a reasonable amount of time. I ended 2-0-2, drawing my final match 1-1 against the Esperblade build that took first place. Lost game 1 after putting my opponent in topdeck mode with a series of therapies. He ripped a Jace off the top and I had only one creature in hand. Game 2 was a grindfest that I won with a resolved Sylvan Library. I think some number of Stoneforge Mystic might be good for speeding up the kill here.

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Originally Posted by .Ix

Played this list at a very small local. While I think the deck is very powerful, it might just be too slow for tournaments. It ends up grinding way too much and can't beat other grindy decks in a reasonable amount of time. I ended 2-0-2, drawing my final match 1-1 against the Esperblade build that took first place. Lost game 1 after putting my opponent in topdeck mode with a series of therapies. He ripped a Jace off the top and I had only one creature in hand. Game 2 was a grindfest that I won with a resolved Sylvan Library. I think some number of Stoneforge Mystic might be good for speeding up the kill here.

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Stoneforge doesn't speed it up. typically it'll give you a little more power vs them via a reliable, recur-able creature. You'll end up hard casting the Batterskull more often than not. I also don't recommend Jitte (perhaps a second BS) for the current Meta. Everything that you'll want to kill will have been overrun already by your removal and 'larger' creatures.

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

Stoneforge doesn't speed it up. typically it'll give you a little more power vs them via a reliable, recur-able creature. You'll end up hard casting the Batterskull more often than not. I also don't recommend Jitte (perhaps a second BS) for the current Meta. Everything that you'll want to kill will have been overrun already by your removal and 'larger' creatures.

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Sorry if this is a beaten horse but with the increse of DRS the value of Knight and Goyf has notably decreased to me. Is it in turn logical that SFM would act as our replacment for them in the finisher sense? If so are there any thoughts on the value of the different swords or is Jitte better then each sword? Sorry if this is stupid. I am more of a combo player but wanted to switch it up.'

thanks

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Originally Posted by nodahero

Sorry if this is a beaten horse but with the increse of DRS the value of Knight and Goyf has notably decreased to me. Is it in turn logical that SFM would act as our replacment for them in the finisher sense? If so are there any thoughts on the value of the different swords or is Jitte better then each sword? Sorry if this is stupid. I am more of a combo player but wanted to switch it up.'

thanks

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Deathrite shaman is good, but its not enough to cut your knights and goyfs out.