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I realize that this isn't quite the right place to talk about another of my strange experiments but do you guys feel that ensnaring bridge is fast enough to keep you from not dieing to all of the creatures of legacy? I realize they can draw Krosan grip but many successful decks (merfolk (only standstill+adept), Vengeviness, zoo) don't play much/any draw manipulation. You can still kill with JaceTM, scepter/burn, or decking them.
Bridge means that you should keep your hand small. The deck aims to have the hand full of cards. Especially when you're winning.
Maybe this is the wrong thread then but using permanents like planeswalkers, bridge itself, counter/top, maybe Isochron Scepter (I know LOLZ newb GTFO...), humility, and perhaps ratchet bomb, would make your hand a bit smaller.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
Why is Isochron Scepter newb? It's putting up its results for the pilots playing it. It;s just noe popular, and at my area, it's been good. Just under the radar and a good strategy.
For a control deck, having card pool is critical to decision so it prolly will not work, granted it is stronger in Countertop decks where you can rely on Top to basically have '3 cards-knowledge' and maintain a smaller hand size without suffering. I rather run Peacekeepers in the sideboard as a Bridge effect, cannot be gripped, and not conditional at all (Except paying 1W)
yo dudes...
does anyone know if wafo made a report about his gp columbus performance? if anyone know please tell me, im a bit curious about his list (heard he was playing TITHES)
thanxs
Has anyone attempted running both Spell Pierce & Spell Snare, by cutting Counterspell? This makes your manabase slightly better as you don't need UU before turn-4 anymore.
My meta mainly consists of Goblins, Merfolk, TES, Vengevival and (both UWb and BUG) Landstill.
I also have a few general questions about my list:
Maindeck: 60
Card Advantage & Quality: 10
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
2x Sensei’s Divining Top
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Removal & Board-Control: 16
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Path to Exile
2x Vindicate
3x Engineered Explosives
1x Wrath of God
1x Day of Judgment
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Humility
Counters: 10
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce / Counterspell
3x Spell Snare / Counterspell
Lands: 24
4x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Plains
2x Island
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
1x Marsh Flats / Swamp
4x Mishra’s Factory
3x Wasteland
Sideboard: 15
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Engineered Plague
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle
1x Telemin Performance
Sideboarding Plans:
Merfolk: (8)
-8 ???
+3 Engineered Plague
+3 Kitchen Finks
+2 Pithing Needle
Goblins: (8)
-8 ???
+3 Engineered Plague
+3 Kitchen Finks
+2 Pithing Needle
Vengevival: (8)
-8 ???
+3 Ethersworn Canonist
+3 Extirpate
+2 Pithing Needle
Landstill: (6)
-6 ???
+1 Telemin Performance
+3 Extirpate
+2 Pithing Needle
TES: (7-9)
-7/9 ???
+3 Ethersworn Canonist
+3 Extirpate
+1 Telemin Performance
+2 Pithing Needle (for Shelldock?)
_____________________________________________
tl;dr Questions:
- Cut Counterspell to run both Spell Snare and Spell Pierce?
- Should I run a basic swamp or 7th fetch as 24th Land?
- What would you side out (or side in differently) in the 5 matchups posted (Goblins, Merfolk, TES, Vengevival, Landstill)?
- What do you think about the Kitchen Finks slots for anti-aggro next to plagues? Should I run something else instead?
- Would you change anything else in the SB, with the above meta in mind.
- If you cut Counterspell would you replace Jace by a Decree to eliminate UU entirely (altering your manabase towards a little more white mana as well), or maybe +1 FoF, +1 Decree, -1 Jace, -1 ???
Counterspell is a must and in my opinion in this deck snare is better than pierce because creatures are the bigger problem. I liked 6 fetches well enough personally and the ability to get EE to 3 for sure is useful. Finks is pretty much mvp against zoo and other aggro decks.
Just my two cents.
I feel like the noncreature stuff is the bigger problem... this deck has plenty of answers to creature based options.Quote:
Originally Posted by rayaj
I would run Spell Snare for a different reason, perhaps Survival being the hottest deck at the moment would influence that. Something like:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2-3 Counterspell
Where is konsultant and all of the landstill old timers, we need their expertise in this changing metagame
mr. morbid throwing his two cents in on his old love. i think that a of snare may be justified in todays meta and spell pierces may deserve a spot somewhere in the 75
I don't think Spell Pierce is needed anywhere in the deck. You're not playing some sort of tempo deck where a 1 mana manaleak for spells is extremely profitable.
Now Spell Snare is a whole different story because the ability to stop Survival, Goyf, Counterbalance, Pridemage, etc., is a game winning proposition. I still play 4 Counterspells and no Snares or Pierces because my deck has 3 EE, 4 STP to allow a little more slack with the resolution of the above spells because I can always remove them cheaply.
That being said, it's my opinion that neither of those spells are needed, but I wouldn't fault anyone for playing Spell Snare because it does have it's applications, even though it may feel unnecessary to me.
With vengevine survival being the most hyped deck around i'm running even 4spell snare and lowered the cs to 2..
There is just no place for spell pierce,how good it may be(I play it in BUG-landstill) but switched UWx mainly because of vengevine-survival.
What is wrong with Spell Pierce? Most of the nasty stuff is non-creature spells like Survival of the Fittest and [card]Aether Vial[/cards] or other counterspells (that aren't Daze. If you counter a daze with a Spell Snare or a Spell Pierce, stop playing magic now).
Spell Pierce is conditional. It can be useful in mid game, but most of the time only if you run the mana denial, which this deck lagerly doesn't.
You don't want to have or topdeck useless cards. SP is more often than not dead mid game already. Snare always hits what it is supposed to hit. Ok SP stops Survival just as fine on turn2. But on turn 3 they're likely to have a mana-dork + lands, which is enough to pay 2 in addition. Snare hits it just fine.
SP is at high use in decks that provide mana denial and high pressure, which requires immedate actions from opponent, not letting him slow roll his answers, having enough mana to pay for conditional counters. Which is why it is good in Merfolk, and generally, in tempo decks. Landstill isn't one of them.
As Tinefol mentioned above, and similarly as ChiiMagic indirectly implied with why he still plays Counterspell over Spell Snare. Landstill is a slow deck. It does not set up fast soft locks or win conditions like Counterbalance, SnT, Survival, Tempo Thresh etc. Your cards in the deck have to do a lot, and by a lot, we mean that it has to be as diverse and flexible yet answer threats firmly.
Spell Pierce is a great card in Legacy, but in Landstill where the deck is slow and seeks to slow roll into turns 4-7 before it starts winning, Spell Pierce is not relevant most of the time when the deck is facing to stabilize against creatures. The only situation where I see Spell Pierce being relevant are the Enchantress/Combo/Stax matchup, but only as a supplement card to Counterspell/EE etc. It definitely helps the combo matchup, which is STILL a bad matchup for Landstill.
A thing to note about Landstill is that you don't have to counter everything. It all depends on your deck design. If you run Wish/EE/Academy Ruins/Intuition in any combination, or even additional creature removal such as Path/Fire//Ice/Edicts in any combination, you can afford to let certain creatures slip past. I would even go ahead and say that if you're on the play and playing against Vengevival, you can occassionally allow Survival to slip past then blow it up with EE and still be fine. It depends on the deck you're playing against and the situation. Often times, playing against Zoo/tribal decks, I would intentionally let creatures slip by, take about 5-8 points of damage before blowing the whole field with a single EE just to make the most out of the card. This strategy, again, is only possible if you design your deck to deal with the initial backlash of damage e.g. Cunning Wish with Pulse or a super win-condition/lock that is inevitable e.g. StP on Scepter or Scepter-Chant or Recurring EEs etc.
@ChiiMagic: Any updates to your list? Are Peacekeepers working out for you? Are the Descendants in the SB stronger than other lifegaining cards e.g. Pulse of the fields? I've stopped playing Scepter-Chant for awhile to experiment with personal 'landstill' lists. In particular, are you still playing 2 Chants 2 Fire//Ice 2 Crucibles main? I'll follow up with that when I have more results. Designing outside the core of Landstill is pretty tough considering the deck has a historic success with certain collections of cards. But I'm always willing to test new things.
Here's a 4c list I've been tinkering around with... It uses the punishing fire/burnwillows combo in conjunction with humility.
lands//25
4 tundra
1 tropical island
2 volcanic island
4 grove of the burnwillows
1 plateau
4 flooded strand
1 island
1 tolarua west
1 plains
4 mishra's factory
2 polluted delta
creature control//13
2 humility
3 engineered explosives
4 swords to plowshares
4 punishing fires
spells//22
4 brainstorm
3 jace, the mind sculpter
4 standstill
1 life from the loam
4 force of will
3 counterspell
3 spell snare
The deck has been testing really good against agro in general, but sometimes too many wastelands can spell total disaster... Anybody have any suggestions about making the manabase reliable?
@thefreakaccident
Could a Grove and the Tolaria West be turned into fetches? I'm thinking turn them into Scalding Tarns along with the 2 Deltas. If somebody sides in Needles against you they're going to be naming EE or Jace or Factory, not a fetch. 1 Grove triggers all your Fires, so the rest just become more non-Islands/non-Plains. West is just slow and you have plenty of redundancy in the deck. The full 8 fetch help with mana consistency, wasteland defence, and power up Loam, BS, and Jace.
How has the list farred against Fish? CB?
Also, nice list. Interesting engine (Punishing Fire). Just hope you have 2-3 Firespout in the board, correct?
nice list, freakaccident.
here's what I'd do about your manabase:
4 flooded strand
2 Scalding Tarn (Delta doesn't fetch Plateau)
1 Windswept Heath ------------- Yes. Heath. It fetches every land in your deck barring Basic Island and Volc, but most importantly, other than Tarn/ Rainforest, it gets you: Basic Plains. Heath>Mesa cause the latter won't get you Tropical Island.
4 tundra
1 plateau
1 tropical island
1 volcanic island -------------- I went down to 5 red sources because you won't be able to efficiently do the combo trick before turn 10 or so. At that point you should control 2 red sources anyway. Also added a fetchland, so I lowered the virtual red count by merely 1, from 13 to 12, which is plenty, considering you have just 4 red spells in the MD.
2 island-------------------- the second Island is mandatory. I'd even consider adding a third.
1 plains
3 grove of the burnwillows ------------------see Volcanic explanation
4 mishra's factory
---
So these are 24 mana sources, leaving you one flex slot, which could be filled with Academy Ruins, Basic Island or the 8th fetchland (Tarn).
---
Also, here's a SB approach for an open meta:
3 Firespout
3 Spell Pierce
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip (you will mostly need it against non-wasteland decks: CB.dec, Enchantress, Affinity_2.0, so that singleton Trop is fine)
4 Faerie Macabre --------------debatable choice, but since Relic is a nono..
1 Flex Slot, possibly a lifegainer. Pulse of the Fields looks entertaining with Groves.
---
EDIT: I'm almost certain, that 25th land should be Sensei's Divining Top! It will find you land if you need it AND make it easier to assemble the combo.
Also 24 land looks rock solid, considering there's a Loam somewhere in there too.
So, here's the list with everyones suggestions:
lands//25
4 tundra
1 tropical island
2 volcanic island
3 grove of the burnwillows
1 plateau
4 flooded strand
2 island
1 plains
4 mishra's factory
2 scalding tarn
1 arid mesa
creature control//13
2 humility
3 engineered explosives
4 swords to plowshares
4 punishing fires
spells//22
4 brainstorm
3 jace, the mind sculpter
4 standstill
1 life from the loam
4 force of will
3 counterspell
3 spell snare
sideboard//
3 krosan grip
3 firespout
4 spell pierce/blasts
5 graveyard hate, some mix of crypts/macabres... I wouldn't run relic b/c of the fires/loam.
The Folk matchup has been great, as the fires combo generally shuts them down by itself... Sometimes your forced to slow roll b/c of their mutas, but as long as you sit back and press your advantage you will win. The lists that run 1-2 ports in addition to wasteland hurt a lot though, especially if they draw 2-3 wastes relatively early.
Big zoo can be troublesome as the punishing fires combo sometimes doesn't kill their large creatures, but the zoo lists with stepp lynx and such can be easily shut down with well timed removal... The lists running KotR + waste can sometimes screw over the engine and just win right out if you can't land a humility... So I'd say that the zoo MU kind of depends on their list and the draws of both players.
Counterbalance decks vary a lot nowadays...
If they try to win with a bunch of dudes (i.e. heirarch/goyf/whathaveyou) then you're just fine, but if they try to win with jace you either draw fire/willows or lose, as you have nothing to attack with besides factories (which will get sword's 99/100 times)... You can sacrifice your own jace to kill theirs but it is extremely painful as a player to have to do that.
Try your best to get the counterbalance/top lock off the table, as the deck becomes far more resilient with it down.
Alas I am just running Vengevines. I've won/split in finals pretty much every week at my local for the last 3 months with Vengevines. It's of course a drastically different build than I see anyone else playing but it's been working well enough for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteshepherdman
There are 4 glaring problems for Landstill right now;
1. The prevalence of Wasteland, the card is pretty much the most played card in Legacy and no matter how well a mana base is designed Landstill will always be a multicolor control deck and Wasteland will always have the potential to steal games from Landstill. Running a surplus of basics can help and hinder you as it dodge's Wasteland but forces you to draw all the colors you need with less duals/fetch's. If you increase the land count it creates more mana flooding hands and does nothing to help the tempo loss of being hit by Wasteland while they have a man in play.
2. Spell Pierce. This card was the nail in the coffin for me; it is difficult but not impossable to play around Daze from the tempo decks but Spell Pierce is pretty much a hard counter for 1 mana vs Landstill for the first 5-8 turns whitch is where we either lose the game or stablize.
3. The general speed and power level of the cards in the format, we can lose with out ever having a turn vs multiple different combo decks. 2 and 3 mana creatures in the format kill us in 2-5 hits putting a ton of pressure on us to stop every single creature as fast as possable eliminating our ability to gain card advantage or atleast tempo through cards like Wrath of God.
4. Most of all our "combo" of manlands and Standstills is just not that powerful anymore. People don't run crappy red/green beat down decks anymore. Every experienced Legacy player is very experienced playing vs Landstill, they know all of our tricks. It makes it nearly impossable to outplay opponents. The fact that Merfolk steals our "combo" and does it better than Landstill really hurts us. Merfolk is beatable but requires a very dedicated plan and numerous sllots dedicated to creature removal that are nearly worthless in alot of other match ups.
All this adds up to one thing; it is nearly impossable to consistently win in Legacy. Too many things nead to fall perfectly into place for Landstill to win each game. Yes Landstill can beat any deck in the format but it can also lose to every single deck in the format. Landstill has no auto wins anymore. Anything you want to beat requires dedicated side boarding and with only 15 slots vs the entire field of competitive Legacy you just don't have the room to beat every deck anymore. So all it takes is one bad match up and one round of bad luck and you are out. Landstill's tools are just very outdated and are not versatile enough for what is in Legacy right now. Like I said you can beat any individual match up you want all day long with proper side boarding but finding that key pile of cards that will take down everything just doesn't seem possable anymore. Everything I have tried for the last several months that seemed like it was capable of winning would have huge issues vs the tempo decks in the format.
In my case atleast I just built a more consistent, faster deck with considerably more options where my opponents don't know every card in my deck when we sit down.