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In which matchups are angels and the mind sculpor important? I have been boarding them out and boarding in 4 Mentor in almost every game. The only reason I'm not playing them main is because it would make the opponents removal live.
However, I have started questioning if I want to be playing with Jace and angels at all?
I think the main reason to run Jace, in addition to the constant Brainstorming, is to have a kill condition that doesn't require attacking. Mentor has a lot of advantages over Entreat, namely that you can start incrementally building pressure rather than generating it all at once. I think it make sense to replace Entreat entirely, but some decks have a really easy time dealing with creatures and a really hard time dealing with planeswalkers (I'm thinking of BUG decks but I'm sure there are more), and that's where Jace really shines.Quote:
Originally Posted by autonom
I think mentor is great in the side but recently i find i don't want it as my only win con with decks packing sulfur elemental and dread of night in the board. Jace is great in the slower matchups that can't really deal with it like bug and its also really good against lands as long as you have counterbalance. Entreat is also really good at bgx because incrementally building a board with mentor may not always work when they just abrupt decay him before you can make a critical mass. All in all entreat does get over shadowed by mentor in some matchups but i think it at least has merit of being a one of. Plus grixis and rug can't deal with entreat making one or two angels but both decks can jam dread of night and sulfur elemental to hose mentor.
Lands, Miracles mirror. Yes you do, their cmc is higher than 3, best shot when facing down opponent's CB lock. When not running JtMS, how consistent can you be with the clunky Miracles cards when they are stuck in your hand?Quote:
Originally Posted by autonom
Pretty consistent, I guess, considering Mentor Miracles won GP w/o any Jace (and Angels)...Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
I'm doing quite well without Entreat the Angels right now. I can't think about cutting Jace, The Mindsculptor
but I can imagine having one or two Entreat the Angels in the Sideboard.
You'll only want that card in non-blue Matchups like Jund, Death and Taxes, Maverick
and vs. Shardless but I feel like these Matchups are very beatable with Monastery Mentor or quite rare like Jund currently.
I'm confident in running the same Miracle Control list
at the Bordifies.com Eternal Series in Kiel, Germany and MKM Series #3 in Prague, Czech Republic next month.
What are your thoughts about Monastery Mentor + Daze in the Maindeck? I've been testing the GP-winning list and didn't liked it at all. I felt like Daze was the worst card in the deck and almost always borded it out Game2 and Game3 but the Turn2 Counterbalance hardcounter is quite cute in the mirror.
I might not be sure, but I think the choice of playing Mentor Miracles with Daze at the GP was a huge benefit, considering NO1 would expect it, giving him a few free wins likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by screallix
Mentor miracles or miracles 2.0 as some call it is a complete different deck in my opinion. It plays completely differently compared to conventional miracles, its more like a delver deck. you are the beatdown. rarely you want to board out fows. You dont want to board out counterbalances against decay decks, contrary you bring in an additional target in Blood Moon. At gplille you saw that claudio didnt even board out dazes when he was on the draw in game 2 of the finals against ruel. Claudio also said he had good results with delver before.
I played miracles 2.0 for like 40 matches and had subpar results. I just couldnt adjust to it which doesnt mean its bad, its more like it doesnt fit my playstyle.
Concerning Entreat. Mentor doesnt allow you to come back and win instantly against Bg/x decks.
i don't know what i should say...every time i played the deck i made Top8 (even after the gp), so i wouldn't change right now.
daze is the best card against fast deck as grixis pyromancer, 4c delver and against mirror. you can play the aggro role and the control, but you need to figure out when is the time to be aggro or control, in every MU. sometimes even against tempo decks we will be the aggro one. that the hardest thing...with classic miracle you know always what is your position, here no! :tongue:
Hi Claudio,Quote:
Originally Posted by B88
Would like your advice on what do you board in and out for the mirror match and grixis delver.
Thanks a lot!
Mirror: usually i board out all white spells (not mentor obv) and one plains - add counters and vendilionQuote:
Originally Posted by mike1987
Grixis delver: board out 1mentor, 4fow and i side in pyroclasm, ee, wear, fluster
RIP Dig Through Time. Back to the older lists next week I guess until we see what pans out. Vise shouldn't affect us too much.
Ding dong the Dig is dead!
I mean, it's not great that we lose such a good tool, but it seems SUPER great that one of our bad matchups (Omni-Tell) gets so much worse. What are you all replacing yours with?
Plus many decks like delver don't have the ability to go longer in the game and keep up with miracles. Overall seems positive for miraclesQuote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian
This was literally best case scenario for Miracles.
On a 21-land ponder build:
-2 DTT
+1 Jace, +1 CS
wow wotc must really like miracles... welcome back as (clearly) the best deck in the format... Until january people will be discussing the banning of terminus and top :-/
Terminus doesn't deserve a ban, Top does. This is coming from a delver player but I do think that this deck is a nessisary evil so it's not all delver decks all the time. AND so I can still justify selling elves to build bug TT
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
In fact, does this change the Entreat vs. Mentor debate? Without other decks being able to go from a loss to a win with a well-placed DTT, is there any downside to controlling and durdling until you can Entreat for lethal? Or is it still better to have the early-pressure option of Mentor?
IMHO I think Mentor MD has become unplayable in a control shell. It could have a home in UWR Delver, maybe over stoneforge mystic, but that's a very different deck, and not for discussion here.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian
Entreat is great again. I do think that Mentor can still see SB play, but don't have the testing to back that up (obviously.)
TLDR I think it ends it.
I only played one DTT so it's going to turn into another Counterspell.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian
But how is Poron now going to win against the MUD decks?
It does nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bragi
Quote:
Originally Posted by exallium
Can you elaborate on why you think the banning of DTT means that Mentor is unplayable in the main and why Entreat gets better?
Mentor incentivizes you to cast your spells as quickly as possible, and DTT allowed you to refill with more cantrips. Mentor is still fine, as there are some decks that can't handle it. But without cheap means of recouping card advantage, I don't think it should be the main wincon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeble416
The other issue is that no Dig means more BGx decks, where EtA is a vastly superior wincon.
As for how the list should adapt, my starting place is Philipp's list from summer 2014
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...r--Part-1.html
Yeah sure. This isn't completely thought out, but these are the first comments that come to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeble416
There are a couple of things to consider here:
- What decks that didn't see play will start seeing play again
- What decks that are seeing play shouldn't see much play anymore
- How Miracles as a deck operates without Dig Through Time
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Decks that come back
Off the top of my head, this list includes the following:
- Jund
- Sneak and Show
- BUG Shardless
- BUG Delver w. Hymn
Basically, a bunch of Abrupt Decay, grindy decks, and a Combo deck that a monkey could pilot.
BUG and Jund Mentor is very good vs. all of these decks, but you need to keep in mind that in Game 1, the difference between having and not having mentor can be the deciding factor in how well their deck can play out their game plan. The BUG decks as well as Jund all have so many tools to take care of Mentor in Game 1, and that leaves them to leaving more of those resources in to fight against mentor in G2.
Sneak and Show Becomes the better Show and Tell deck. Mentor does nothing against this deck, as often enough tapping out for a 3 drop on turn 3 will get you quickly killed, and they don't actually require Show and Tell to go off in the first place. Furthermore, The addition of Sneak Attack makes blast effects worse, whereas Omnitell is now much less likely to consistently find boseiju.
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Decks that leave
A few choices would be:
- Omnitell
- Grixis Control
- Grixis Delver
Omnitell will get replaced with Sneak and Show as described above.
Grixis Control loses it's late game. It does not have the continual card advantage provided by Top, and Miracles is well positioned to just grind them out of the game. No dig means no reloading their hand, making a deck full of cantrips and a few lightning bolts / cabal therapies a lot less appealing.
Grixis Delver suffers the same plight as control. This deck might actually try to stick around a little bit, but it's hard to imagine that Pyromancer is nearly as good without a constant stream of resources. What's more, with Terminus and Swords abound, as well as a lot more copies of Toxic Deluge, Grixis Delver will have a much harder time rebuilding through the removal posed by the "new" format. Tarmogoyf, IMO, seems to become the better beater, as you can play the single threat and protect it with reactive spells, instead of needing to be proactive with discard and the like to get more power onto the board. Angler's still very good, but you can't really play it as a 4-of, and Swords or other removal becomes all the more devastating.
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How Miracles as a deck operates without Dig Through Time
In a format without Dig Through Time, Miracles stands out as the premier late game control deck of the format. In the way that BUG and Jund like to grind their opponents down with Removal and Discard, we use our removal and our own form of "discard" in Counterbalance, though it does also provide us with a tempo advantage.
Since we are no longer getting payoff through our graveyard in being able to cast an early and devestating dig through time, we are less inclined to run free counterspells like Daze. Without Daze, we no longer really want to be tapping out on turn 3 to try to slam a mentor.
Looking at the decks that should (should being the key word) come in and out of the format, it's quite clear to me that we want to take a step back, and reform to a reactive approach. I'm not sure how far this goes yet. Mentor is still an amazing card, and I believe that it belongs in the board for the time being, but I'm not clear as to what the number should look like.
A reactive approach means Entreat the Angels, which is a reactive win condition (by reactive, I mean I can do it when I want at instant speed.).
With Ovino, Prauge, and GP Seattle coming up, it's going to be an interesting couple of months. This is ofc all speculation.
Just go to page 200 or so of this thread. Since Sneak and Show returns, Karakas sounds like a good idea about now.Quote:
Originally Posted by exallium
I would still have Mentor in the 75, but most likely a SB card. The ridiculous BS of Miracles "2.0" or Mentor Control will probably become less effective.
My likely changes:
-3 Mentor
-2 DTT
+2 Entreat
+1 Jace (up to 2)
+1 Snapcaster (back to 3 main)
+1 Terminus (back to 4 main)
Replacing the Canonists in the sideboard with maybe the Mentors, or maybe Meddling Mage again? I wish I'd kept my old decklists now.
Yeah. I like them in the board, and the number will be highly dependant on the other cards, mainly whether or not I'll run Vendilion Clique.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
As for Karakas... It's great vs. Show and Tell but depressingly ineffective against Sneak Attack. I'd sooner, personally, consider Containment Priest or Pithing Needle.
I think this ban makes the Mentor version even better, as you can pressure early (and late). DTT was a method for the slower builds to recover from a negative board state and pull ahead. Without DTT, this becomes a bit more difficult to accomplish. Playing Jace against a packed board is often nothing more than a 4-mana Brainstorm or Unsummon. Another factor: even though DTT is banned, I still think Pyroblast is going to be commonly played. Alternatively, Mentor is good at every point in the game and always demands an answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian
So we all know the ponder build of miracles will be fine in this post dig ban meta but i also feel like legends miracles gets stronger to with sneak and show and bgx midrange inevitably starting to show up again
Perhaps a 5-1-3 day 1 finish at a GP?Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian
double Moon and Mentor pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bragi
We have to see how the meta will shift. If we finally run out of all this red I start playing back Jace and Angels.
Both great against Mus
RIP Ponder...
yup, Ponder build is pretty much weakened.. let's see how (non)red the meta will shift now...
Can't wait to play back Jace!
Anyway I agree with this ban, there were only blue decks or punishing blue decks around.
I disagree. While DTT was good in the ponder build it was also one of the best ways to beat ponder miracles. Relative to the format I believe ponder miracles got stronger as DTT was one of the few ways to recoup the card disadvantage of getting ragged on by counterbalance. Miracles was almost a begrudging DTT deck, it played 2 copies and it's strategy didn't revolve around the card. Now that literal card advantage costs BB instead of UU the virtual card advantage of top is going to matter more and more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Pryoblast still main?
Wait what? SCHONEGGER was playing Ponder at GP Paris And GP NJ. Did he not write enough articles to remind you.... Oh forget it, do whatever you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Mag...ar14/welcome#1Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
?
I think Death and Taxes will also come back because Omnitell was one of its worse if not the worse matchup and now it will get replaced by Sneak&Show decks which Death and Taxes has great mu against. I agree with the rest of what you said though.Quote:
Originally Posted by exallium
we can agree on that then: much less red :cool: