[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Cope

Sooo I haven't been on this thread for a while now apparently and looking through the past several pages I'm seeing alot of things that surprise me, eg. people are not only playing less than 4 Breakthough, but in some cases replacing it (or Study) with Gitaxian Probe???

For reference, my current list is as follows:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Mana Confluence
4 City of Brass
1 Gemstone Mine

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Putrid Imp

SB:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Firestorm
2 Nature's Claim
1 Wear//Tear
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dread Return
1 Iona
1 Dragonlord Kolaghan


Over the past several months playing at local tournaments, I found myself losing several games to losing my Gemstone Mines, so I switched to/am trying 4 Citys because the life loss rarely seems relevant in my experience, though this could be an overreaction to my recent small sample size and any mix of City/Mine for the last 5 rainbow land slots could work just fine I'm sure. I also finally replaced the FKZ with a Dragonlord Kolaghan because the only time FKZ is better is if you have exactly 6 zombies and you can swing for 21 whereas itd be 18 with Kolaghan, and while Kolaghan can get STPed before attacks, STP seems less prevalent these days with (real) Miracles gone, and its of course much better to reanimate by itself and is a black creature for Ichorid if needed. The Leylines have been impressive though honestly, it gives us a lot of game against the Reanimator decks which are normally awful matchups and have been becoming more popular, obv the mirror, and even has some utility vs Lands decks as well.

Some changes I'm considering trying/making based on reading the last many pages of this thread would be trying +2 Amalgam, taking out 1 Ichorid and either Thug#4 or Putrid Imp#2. I'll admit haven't tried the FoW SB package (don't own them lol) but it doesn't sound very good to me anyways, hoping to have FoW, blue card, and an otherwise functional hand just seems very optimistic to me. But I can definitely see the appeal of diversifying the Ichorid/Amalgam mix tho esp with seemingly every SB having 2-3 Surgicals (as they should), but it usually takes 2 Surgicals to beat us anyways unless the first one is perfectly timed.

But yeah I just wanted to share my current thoughts/list that I've been having pretty good success with recently as usual, any questions/comments welcome!

-Cope

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From my vantage point everyone seems to be running the same cookie cutter version of dredge with FKZ. I never ended up running my probe list in tournament so I can't comment on how effective or not it is.

Anyway,

I do like the list you posted. The only change I would make is to ship 1x breakthrough to the board and up the Putrid Imp count to at least 3. He's just such a beast at the moment against cards like Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm. And of course either baiting out or not baiting out a FOW. I like the recurable discard especially when slow dredging; would rather it be 6 cards each turn to get to those 4 Ichorids more reliably.

Imo if your meta calls for the need of 4x leyline of the void then I'm probably not wanting to play dredge in such a hostile meta. As Slave mentioned I would rather dedicate those slots for hate/Combo decks

Any chance I can get a look at the Git Probe list you were working on?
I will be going to GP Minneapolis next week and want to see how it plays in a few side events. Seems like a good chance to see how my FKZ build works vs the Git Probe list.

Can someone please enlighten me on why you would ever play gitaxian probe in dredge. What card would you remove to make room for probe?

Question: How to play in the current metagame full of graveyard hate? What cards/combinations are reliable and consistent? What alternative sideboard strategies are available currently?

Background: I played at a small local tournament with my LED Dredge a few days ago after about one and a half years long sabbatical from Magic and was shocked by the abundance of graveyard hate in my local metagame. Won only once against Lands 2:0 as I was faster, but all other games I lost 1:2 - RUG Delver (countermagic, wastelands, surgical extraction), D&T (taxes, wastelands, cage, surgical, RIP), and Infect (countermagic, surgical, RIP). Apparently, it looks like that the general metagame is in a similar state - everyone is scared of Reanimator and brings a lot of graveyard hate.

After skimming the last dozen pages of this thread I see that Putrid Imp is perceived as an integral part of the deck because it can't be countered by Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm (not to mention that it provides a permanent discard facility). However, with the wide-spread prevalence of Surgical Extraction it is simply not enough to be bale to discard dredgers; it is crucial to be able to draw/dredge instantly. Bazaar of Baghdad is masterpiece that I miss in Legacy and replicate its versatility and ferocity is not easy, if at all. The only reasonable way to draw/dredge without any mana cost that I know is Street Wraith. However with only four copies available, this is not enough.

Perhaps discard heavy Dredge build is what can work well now? Unmasks, perhaps Thoughtseize. Or blue builds with Force of Will and Mindbreak Trap? (Mental Misstep would be so helpful)

So, what best practices are available now to stay competitive in the current metagame? Other than to play something else than Dredge. It looks like Dredge still can confidently and quickly win the first game, but stalls after sideboarding. Perhaps some kind of transformational sideboard plan can work? (Using Pitch Dredge as analogy)

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Originally Posted by Chronatog

Question: How to play in the current metagame full of graveyard hate? What cards/combinations are reliable and consistent? What alternative sideboard strategies are available currently?

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Carefully - if at all. I haven't been playing the deck much in the last 6 months, but I love this deck more than any other for some reason I haven't worked out!:laugh:
I don't really see the point if you're going to be battling against RiP & LotV in every match-up, but if extraction is going to be the main obstacle I feel we have a fighting chance. The only bugger with playing carefully, is that the whole LED/Breakthrough line of play that serves this deck so well on Turn1, is something of a punt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chronatog

Perhaps discard heavy Dredge build is what can work well now? Unmasks, perhaps Thoughtseize. Or blue builds with Force of Will and Mindbreak Trap? (Mental Misstep would be so helpful)

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In the past I've tried Unmask's but we're not really black-cards heavy enough for it to be consistently a good line of play. Brainstorm was always the enemy with any form of targeted discard really. Now with Top gone from miracles, this line of play might actually be a little more viable than it was back when I tried it.

Personally, my first optimized deck in legacy was manaless dredge. Many people pass the deck off as trash, but miss the point of the deck. The fact that most of the lines of play with manaless cannot be interacted with, from using things like Street Wraith, Phantasmagorian etc., is something that rates a mention.
I dunno if some freakish dredge deck could utilise these un-interactive elements with LED, and actually be a good deck....

I currently run a blue FoW variant of Dredge. I've been running the blue build for quite a while now, in both Manaless and LED-dredge.
The main problem with the FoW build is that you do sacrifice some raw speed, as B-thru's are problematic with FoW in hand. Having FoW in hand is great, and whilst it can be effective in baiting your opponent, you only have 4 of them. I tried testing Disrupting Shoal as redundancy for a little while but it was terrible. Mindbreak is my 2nd counter of choice FWIW when I choose to run them.
I'm going to be testing out the new Failure // Comply as a sideboard option but it might end up being far too slow to ever be a threat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chronatog

So, what best practices are available now to stay competitive in the current metagame? Other than to play something else than Dredge. It looks like Dredge still can confidently and quickly win the first game, but stalls after sideboarding. Perhaps some kind of transformational sideboard plan can work? (Using Pitch Dredge as analogy)

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Quite a few of the guys here like using Lotus Petal's in from the side. I like this approach too.
I've been running 2x Iona in the side, with the plan on naming whatever colour relates to their hate, or combo pieces.
I like the idea of a transformational side, but given how many of the mainboard cards are unique to dredge, I'm not sure how we avoid simply being a very bad version of whatever we're aiming to impersonate. I've tried the Dark Depths version that some have suggested but I found it horribly inconsistent.

A brand new, updated primer on Dredge has been posted. Continue your conversations on dredging at this link. -RT

Dredge primer and thread have been updated. Please continue all deck development conversations for Dredge here.