Printable View
My issue with sinkhole is that it never felt like it did enough even against decks that did not run DRS. Destroying land is cute, but it makes up the majority of most decks so they always had more and could still cast something to make the table worse for you. So while you may or may not be slowing them down, they are still casting brainstorm, lightning bolt, whatever.
DRS and probe banned.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ate-2018-07-02
Interesting. I would expect dredge to get a minor resurgence.
I started playing Legacy about the time Deathrite was release so The Elf Shaman’s meta is all I have known. It seems like the rest of The Source is predicting some of our more difficult matches will become more prevalent.
Reanimator/Dredge:
Griselbrand sucks but Iona suuuccckkkkkss. Liliana’s are both a little worse. Hymns get way worse. Smallpox isn’t the best. 1 mana discard teeters between playable and bad. Bontu’s is better than Deluge but still isn’t great. Diabolic Edict seems like it will be good. I have played a maindeck Extraction before with some success and it might be time to consider it again.
Lands:
Hopefully this gets caught up in the crossfire of excessive graveyard hate and gets played less.
Miracles:
Snapcaster gets better for the deck and the deck gets better across the field. We’ll see more of it but it isn’t the monster it once was.
Sneak and Show:
Winable but difficult. Hymn is awesome here, as is Lily. We have the pieces to win we just need to draw them better than a Blue deck. Extracting Grissy, Emmy or the deck’s namesake works well. Bridge is good.
RUG Delver:
Goose and Stifle. This deck usually only plays 3-4 different bodies (Delver/Goose/Goyf/TNN/Mandrills) and 4 copies of Volc and Trop. Extractions work here pretty well, especially if you are on the Wasteland/Sinkhole plan. Be prepared to get Dazed even when you can pay just to lose the target. That being said that moment makes a surprise Extirpate really fun.
You know what sucks? Forgetting about Stifle and losing out on an Ultimate.
White:
The fairest of them all. More Swords, more Moms, more SFM. Stoneblade variants abound- get ready to fight Batterskull with FoW backup.
I thought I had too much graveyard hate but now I might not have enough. My plan on Monday was drop Leylines for a couple more Surgicals and give Nihil Spellbomb a try. Now I think 4 Leylines and 2/2 Extir/Extract for a total of 8 slots isn’t completely ridiculous.
I might reconsider Dark Ritual if fast combo becomes the norm.
Polish off your sinkhole folks.
Also, your best matchup will now be everywhere (rug delver. )
I am thinking of going back to wasteland/urborg. At least for testing.
Woo hoo. Time to feed Pox.dec a new meta!! :laugh::laugh::cool::cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
My test with Wasteland is over. It still sucks.
list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
I tested against a D&T list tonight which ran the new Brightling card. I found the thing hard to kill with our usual creature removal. With the cards most decks run, the only way to get rid of it seems to be to cast smallpox when the opponent is hellbent, use any removal spell when they are tapped out (which they will obviously be reluctant to do), or use a removal spell, have them bounce it, and then make them discard it (unless they have an aether vial on 3 in play). The latter option is obviously not ideal... It honestly makes me want to consider Tainted Aether to punish them for continually bouncing it.
I confirm Brightling is annoying. The Abyss can help here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Gibson
I can see it becoming a problem. It is another pithing needle target, but even if it is needled it is a 3/3 body that must be killed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Gibson
The best solution is probably to get a game state that neutralize it. Needle the Vial and nuke the lands to stop it being cast. Or Abyss. Or Dark Depths. Or Maze of Ith. Or Needles AND Revoker. Or..
Do you mean in a creature package ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Personnally I am still fan of it, in a Sinkhole-Void-Chains build (especially if there are more basics in the post ban meta).
I also consider running a single Port, but since I also play Tabernacle and Maze, maybe I would have to rely too heavily on Urborg.
Florian
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParisFlorian
Yes, exactly. When you play the wasteland you lose tempo, since most likely the opponent have allready played his eldrazi or so.
Great in the land destruction package, but better for me to stick to swamps.
There was also that amusing incident yesterday when my Urborg let my opponent draw mana from Eye of Ugin and casta chalice on one.
Stopped me from playing the Shrieking Affliction and race for the win.
I run Sink Waste Void classic prison. How to make room for big Pox? With DRS gone, tempted to add more land killing in my mix. Was considering Rancid Earth as a weenie nuke. I tend to hit threshold early. But Pox is just better for same cmc. That'd be 12 mana killing cards. A long time ago, I ran sphere of resistance instead of sinkhole... Despite the symmetry it couldn't be used to our advantage like the poxes can.Quote:
Originally Posted by ParisFlorian
Quote:
Originally Posted by fluuu
This is what I tested on Untap.In;
4 shrieking affliction
4 Bloodghast
4 nihilith
1 buried alive
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Collective Brutality
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
3 liliana of the veil
2 liliana, the last hope
4 dark ritual
4 bloodstained mire
1 polluted delta
4 wasteland
11 Swamp
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
It is basically my standard list but with changes to the mana base.
There was a pox 5-0 in the first league since the DRS unban
Osman Ozguney is a well-known MODO grinder, this is not just a list from some random guyQuote:
OSMANOZGUNEY (5-0)
Planeswalker (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Creature (2)
2 Nether Spirit
Sorcery (21)
1 Beseech the Queen
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
Artifact (5)
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
Enchantment (1)
1 Nether Void
Land (27)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
10 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Tomb of Urami
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Dark Confidant
2 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
We see a lot of similarities between this list and Adachi Ryosuke latest list:
- 27 Lands with a similar selection (4 Factory 4 Waste 4 Urborg 1 Bog 1 Tabernacle 1 Maze)
- 4 Innocent Blood 4 Smallpox 4 Discard Spell (IOK instead of Thoughtseize)
- 1 Beseech 2 Cursed Scroll 1 Ensnaring Bridge
- Maindeck Nether Void but not Abyss or Chains
Interesting differences
- 2 Nether Spirits (zero Nether Spirit has always been the hardest thing for me to understand about the lists from AR, this card always seems so strong and he wasn't even playing any creatures in the first place. I guess it's better now that DRS doesn't exist and RUG might be more popular where it's very good at blocking Mongoose and Tarmogoyf)
- 4 Sinkhole, 0 Dark Ritual
- 4 Hymn rather than 2
- No Liliana the Last Hope
I have previously been very anti-Ritual, then I came around to thinking that Ritual is good, and now there is this 5-0 list with no Ritual, but 4 Sinkhole
I initially didn't think Ritual made sense because it was such a poor topdeck for an attrition strategy.
When I started liking ritual was when I started to feel that you had to play Smallpox early in some games to disrupt the opponent, which made it too difficult to cast your 3-mana planeswalkers, so the way to win games was by Ritualing out a walker on turn 1 and then Smallpoxing behind it.
Playing Sinkhole instead of Ritual might provide this necessary disruption on turn 2 while not delaying your ability to reach 3 mana and being a better topdeck in the mid/late-game
I think 0 Last Hope makes sense in a deck with no Ritual, although it still seems like a decent SB option. I guess he preferred Bob in this role instead
1 Ratchet Bomb maindeck is quite a nice idea
Mikokoro is cool too (I guess you use it when your opponent is hellbent in your own mainphase and then after you play whatever you draw off it you +1 Liliana)
Ooh... Need to give this one a test run, sans Tabernacle but Ifnir deadlands instead. I used to hate spell lands but woke up to the irony that they worked. Need to try something else as my Bloodghasts don't care that I die... :frown::frown: Lost more games than I'd like to the "can't block" mechanic. the Last Hope is too good to exclude imo. 3 Veil & 1 Zombie mistress it is! ^_^Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
Finally happened, I did my first legacy event ever!
Not sure if a 7 person LGS event qualifies as a tournament report, but here you go nonetheless. This is the ONLY store that does legacy in the greater KC area, if that tells you about the health of the format around here. After the advice presented on this threat (many thanks) settled on the below list. Turned out very similar to Hardcore's list.
the deck:
11 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 wasteland
3 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
4 pox
4 smallpox
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
4 innocent blood
4 liliana of the veil
4 bloodghast
4 shrieking affliction
3 gurmag angler
1 liliana, the last hope
Board:
2 extirpate
3 collective brutality
4 leyline of the void
3 bitterblossom
3 pithing needle
Surgical extractions are on the way, so no need to comment on that re my sideboard. Based on some of the combo I saw I would like to up that to 4 sugricals and drop the Collective brutality, maybe. I put in CoBru thinking i'd see burn and took out the lost legacy and should have left those in for a combo deck I ran into. But I avoided the burn player that was there so who knows.
Practice game while we waited for people to show up vs WG enchantress (with a karakas/Emrakul, the aeons torn and Rest in Peace/Helm of obedience finish plan).
Normal early trades. He'd land an argothian enchantress, draw a card or two, then I'd smallpox/innocent blood them away. He drops a suppression field and I forget to fetch in response, which slows down my Liliana of the veil until he can Oblivion ring one. Meanwhile bloodghast is doing it's thing, but the well starts to run dry and only deliver lands once I get hellbent. He drops a second suppression field to choke off almost anything else and wound up getting his karakas and Emrakul, the aeons torn in play to finish me off.
Then the business started. Round 1 vs Alex. Not sure what he is on ("something weird" per him). He mulls to 4 and keeps. I have no idea what that means but he must have kept a no lander (I didn't know). I see an opening 7 of fetchand + 6 business, so I mull and keep an urborg, tomb of yawgmoth and 5 business and scry a hymn to tourach to the bottom. I pull enough lands off the top so we are good. He draws for 2 or 3 turns, but eventually he goes land, wild growth, then argothian enchantress on the following turn. For some reason I had him on manaless dredge and didn't want to fill his yard so I held back. In hindsight that was a stupid idea, plus I could have cast my inquisition of kozilek and "chose" nothing if that was the case, so misplay there on my end but it didn't matter. Soon as that enchantress hit I smallpox her away and he conceded to move to game 2, since he mulled so deep and was so far behind anyway.
Game 2, started off with Inquisition of kozilek taking elephant grass (saw an argothian enchantress but knew I could take her out before any real advantage is had). She comes down his t2, but I smallpox her away again. T3 I hymn to tourach and get some stuff, then drop a shrieking affliction. Big pox weakens him and wrecks the board and hand, bloodghast finishes off. 2-0 games, 1-0 rounds.
Round 2, Scott on Amulet Bloom.
I watched him play a side game with the above gentleman after the first round, and tried to speed learn the amulet deck in the event I played against him later (I had never seen it before and obviously we got paired). I am on the play, and turn 1 Inquisition of Kozilek an amulet of Vigor away. Turn two hymn to tourach gets a summoner's pact and land, turn 3 smallpox followed by 4th turn gurmag angler and Liliana of the veil after that to seal it.
Game 2 I inquisition of kozilek something turn 1 but I can't read my notes, then he does some ancient stirring to find a land. I smallpox and he must have drawn one of those obstinate Baloth that comes in and nets him 4 life if I make him discard. He also summoner's pacts and Azusa, lost but seeking but doesn't have enough to cast. I innocent blood away the scary 4/4 and get a bloodghast out for some hits and a Liliana of the veil out for the Azusa, lost but seeking but he eventually finds a primeval titan with haste to get rid of Liliana of the veil and I can't get anything to get rid of it, then he does his combo off to put all the titans into play and give them all haste and trample and double strike if he wants.
Sideboard - out 1 Liliana, the last hope, 3 big pox. +2 pithing needle, + 2 extirpate (hoping to get him to discard a titan/pact and then get rid of it, needle was for Slayers' stronghold, not sure if that was a good move or if I was being too cute).
Game 3
T1 Inquisition of kozilek to get the Azusa, lost but seeking but I see he has that pesky obstinate Baloth and I have a hand of 2 hymn to tourachs and not much else. I get the pithing needle out for his Slayers' Stronghold. We pass back and forth a bit. I draw a smallpox and i think I can now hymn to tourach him and follow up with smallpox to get rid of the baloth, but i forgot the small detail that he had 2 other creatures out. so I screwed the pooch bad on that one, but he had drawn a second one and was down to 3 cards, so i was going to see one regardless. He gets his summoner's pact for the Ruric Thar, the Unbowed and All I can muster is a bloodghast and he ain't blocking shit, so lost that round. Made the misplay, but it wouldn't have mattered, I didn't have it that game.
I asked him after the match if I had made any misplays for learning purposes, and he said i had 2-3 turns where any pox effect or wasteland would have won it by putting him too far out of reach in the second game. So good to know that was a very winnable matchup.
1-1 rounds, 3-2 games.
Round 3 vs Steven on what I would describe as a midrange timmy stompy deck.
I opened up game one with a triple (!!) hymn to tourach after a turn 1 inquisition of kozilek. Got a shrieking affliction in, then a bloodghast, then a gurmag angler. Never stood a chance.
Game 2 was just as filthy, with inquisition of kozilek, Hymn to tourach, smallpox, hymn to tourach again, then bloodghast, and Liliana of the veil to seal it. He only played land and a single mindslaver (?) both rounds I think. And a 4cc rampant growth type card once or twice but that was it. His deck was full of platinum angel, darksteel colossus type cards so he basically had little to do until he got his cloudposts out, which isn't a good plan vs pox.
Other decks there that i didn't play: burn, and a guy on at least BWU, with baleful strix and Deathrite shaman[/cards] (He didn't know they were banned so he replaced them with something from his board... no idea what the deck was though).
Did well enough to cut top 4 (out of 7....) being 2-1 and got 8.75 in store credit from my $5 buy in. Look out Vintage, here i come!
All in all, I think I played fairly well given that most decisions were straight forward. Not sure I sideboarded properly in round 2 (the only one I boarded anything). Surgicals are in the mail as we speak. Lost legacy probably would have shut down my round two opponent if I could get the pacts out. I can deal with 1 titan, I can't deal with 4. He had a few other creatures but nothing that would have comboed out I don't think.
Much thanks to the people on this thread for the help, sorry it was a week late, had to wait for more cards to come in before considering it finished.
Also, didn't miss the Mishra's factory, and the wastelands were fine this week. Saw main deck REst in peace in both enchantress decks, but nothing major in the way of outright grave hate, but no graveyard decks either. And feedback welcomed.
Awesome! I think your quad-laser approach is very appropriate, given your lack of Legacy Pox experience. You'll get a strong feel for how the deck plays out, then you can start making decisions like 3 instead of 4 pox to work in a Ratchet Bomb (just an example) and other changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronco
Ways to mitigate some issues with Pox given its nature:
1) Crucible of Worlds (recurs Wastelands, Factories. Wait, where are your Factories?!?!?)
2) Raven's Crime (makes top-decked lands less bad)
3) Sink big money into reserved list cards (Nether Void, the Abyss, Chains of Mephistopheles, Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale)
Thanks!! I had a good time playing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
1) From the testing I was able to do, Even with the urborgs I couldn't support 8 non black mana sources and reliably get my BB and BBB spells, so I decided to cut either the wasteland or factories. I don't have enough experience to make good decisions on my own yet, but I went with the factories. I am glad crucible got a reprint though, I have exactly 0.
2) That was in the small stack of cards I wanted to try and work in. Thought it was kind of a no-go with ghast. Had kind of the same thoughts with syphon life in the board for a burn matchup. I think if I take this a different route and go prison style (bridges, nether spirit instead of ghast, etc) then this becomes much stronger.
3) I'd like to do that eventually. I've got a long way to go on that, unfortunately, but I do have 1 chains. I played around with the budet version of these cards (trinisphere, torment of scarabs, etc and really liked it). Correctly or not, this is a deck I've liked since I've started (1997 ish) so I don't think sinking money in this will be a fleeting decision. Unlike my foray into 5c piles lol.
Also, in case it matters for pox posterity, the first person I played on enchantress was different from the person I played in the practice game before the tourney.