[Deck] Death and Taxes

Yep you might be right about the 4. Flagstones :-)
First i had non in the MD, then 2, now 3 - i rly might go up to 4 there.

Concerning Flickerwisp...
I rly think you underestimate this guy, even without vial...
Just some examples from the last 5 tournaments:
- I had several games vs. agressive-decks, in which i had Close situations, in which my batterskull had to jump-block an enemy goyf. Just play flickerwisp on the skull in 2. mainphase and have a dual time-walk due to the lifelink of this Equipment.
- On the opposite side i had use for the wisp in just bouncing the enemy-batterskull-token (not to mention the possibility to bounce an enemy dd-token)
- Beneath the fact that 3mana 3:1 flying isnt that bad at all (exspecially against delver, which you can bounce into a non-flipped creature again), the just the flying wins in many matches, when you can connect with an Equipment.
- Another trick (not that spectacular but still good): Play him with 2 plains / 1 wasteland, get wasteland eot back untapped and waste enemy land - you just got 3:1 flying for 2mana
- Beside many other shenanigans you can flicker your own stoneforge to get another Equipment in your Hand...
- Flicker Chalice of the void th get Access to Play StoP again...
- Flicker Mox Diamond (or even Chrome mox) against lands, if he has not that much mana (or completely screw him with rest in peace in game)
- And i had a crazy game against lands with vial on 3 and 3 flickerwisps, in which i killed through 2 maze of ith and glacial chasm (with loam online!) - funny: he has to sac another land, when chasm comes back into play^^

There sure are many other situations which i didn't have in matches, but flickerwisp has always been great and just for the statistics: i won definetly more games with 4 flickerwisps then with only 3 of them.

Greetz,
Marius

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Originally Posted by Plague Sliver

Seems like Flagstones is a no-brainer because:
- It thins out the deck
- It allows you to play around Massacre
- Is great with Cataclysm/Armageddon
- Received a boost after they changed the Legend rule

Even when I tested vs. some Blood Moon decks such as Painter, it didn't really matter. Unless you're facing T1 blood moon every round, it seems like an obvious inclusion.

I'm just failing to see the drawback, unless I'm really missing something...

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The drawbacks are pretty much Blood Moon, Back to Basics and Price of Progress. I think the upsides are pretty high, but the downsides do exist.

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Originally Posted by Plague Sliver

That's a sweet list, very tightly constructed. Looks like your meta must be all Storm and Elves :) I like the 4x Canonists.

I will challenge the sacred cow here and say that I enjoy running 3x Flickerwisp instead of 4x. They are phenomenal with Vial, but sometimes you don't find Vial and then drawing multiples of Wisps is underwhelming. Once in awhile, the double white is hard to hit as well. So like I said, Vial superstar but not so great otherwise.

By the way, not a critique -- I'm finding it hard NOT to run the full playset of Flagstones in every D&T build. I had a good discussion with a friend about it the other day. Not that we were arguing, he was also a huge proponent of it, but he was trying to convince HIS friend to do it.

Seems like Flagstones is a no-brainer because:
- It thins out the deck
- It allows you to play around Massacre
- Is great with Cataclysm/Armageddon
- Received a boost after they changed the Legend rule

Even when I tested vs. some Blood Moon decks such as Painter, it didn't really matter. Unless you're facing T1 blood moon every round, it seems like an obvious inclusion.

I'm just failing to see the drawback, unless I'm really missing something...

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Clearly you've never had a flagstones trigger get stifled...

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Originally Posted by Plague Sliver

That's a sweet list, very tightly constructed. Looks like your meta must be all Storm and Elves :) I like the 4x Canonists.

I will challenge the sacred cow here and say that I enjoy running 3x Flickerwisp instead of 4x. They are phenomenal with Vial, but sometimes you don't find Vial and then drawing multiples of Wisps is underwhelming. Once in awhile, the double white is hard to hit as well. So like I said, Vial superstar but not so great otherwise.

By the way, not a critique -- I'm finding it hard NOT to run the full playset of Flagstones in every D&T build. I had a good discussion with a friend about it the other day. Not that we were arguing, he was also a huge proponent of it, but he was trying to convince HIS friend to do it.

Seems like Flagstones is a no-brainer because:
- It thins out the deck
- It allows you to play around Massacre
- Is great with Cataclysm/Armageddon
- Received a boost after they changed the Legend rule

Even when I tested vs. some Blood Moon decks such as Painter, it didn't really matter. Unless you're facing T1 blood moon every round, it seems like an obvious inclusion.

I'm just failing to see the drawback, unless I'm really missing something...

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The Sacred Cow is sacred for a reason (Marius covered it pretty well I think).

I will add this: I have ran into more situations where I find myself wanting (or needing) Wisp more than situations where I dislike having it. So many cards in Legacy crumple to it, Vial or no, and the fact it flies and kills delver is just insane.

Of course, I also do two Mangara (another card I'd rather see than not), do my opinion of Wisp may be skewed... But I really think it is our most versatile tool--and one that opponents always seem to underestimate.

Hello Guys,

What the best sideboard against Miracles. In my local metagame are a lot of Miracle decks.

Thank you!!

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Originally Posted by xavidp

Hello Guys,

What the best sideboard against Miracles. In my local metagame are a lot of Miracle decks.

Thank you!!

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The best cards out of SBs are: Pithing Needle, Cataclysm, and Gaddock Teeg - the former attacking Top the latter limiting their Miracles. Council's Judgment can be fine too, to remove a Planeswalker or like the occasional Baneslayer Angel.

The Legendary cards in the MD are all premium - you can protect them from sweepers with Karakas. Swords to Plowshares is the weakest card post board.

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Originally Posted by xavidp

Hello Guys,

What the best sideboard against Miracles. In my local metagame are a lot of Miracle decks.

Thank you!!

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Cataclysm, Ratchet Bomb and Pithing Needle are all all-stars. Make sure you're main decking Mangara of Corondor as well.

While not a sideboard card, getting a Vial online against Miracles makes this match substantially easier since you won't have to deal with getting creatures through Counterbalance. If you have a lot of Miracles where you play, running a Cavern of Souls might make sense also. A green splash version of the deck running both Teeg and Mangara is pretty darn good against Miracles, and lets you run Choke in the board as well just for fun.

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Originally Posted by Wasteland

There sure are many other situations which i didn't have in matches, but flickerwisp has always been great and just for the statistics: i won definetly more games with 4 flickerwisps then with only 3 of them.

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Good reasoning and good scenario list. I'll go back to 4x for a while and see what happens. (likely good things)

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Originally Posted by hill_giant

Clearly you've never had a flagstones trigger get stifled...

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You're right, I haven't. Then again, if they have Wasteland and multiple Stifles, because there are about a million other things they could Stifle in D&T, then I guess they win.

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Originally Posted by xavidp

Hello Guys,

What the best sideboard against Miracles. In my local metagame are a lot of Miracle decks.

Thank you!!

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It's already pretty good naturally against Miracles. Thalia plus Karakas is nuts. Make sure your first priority is to grab the SOFI for card advantage and pro-blue. Mulligan aggressively for vial. If you're running 4x Revokers main, it helps a lot. A matchup where Mangara shines.

During the Cruise era, Brimaz was also pretty damn good versus Miracles, but he's not such an auto-include anymore.

Out of the board, you have Ratchet Bomb and Cataclysm. Take out the Jitte and StPs.

i have a fairly diverse meta at my lgs. i don't really find myself mulliganing much unless i have 0 lands. i wanted to get some input on whether you guys would keep these hands against an unknown deck.

1) 3x plains, mom, stp, 2 revokers
2) 2 karakas, 2 plains, flagstone, stoneforge, thalia
3) plains, mom, revoker, jitte, mangara, mirran, brimaz
4) 2 wasteland, 2 vial, 2 flickerwisp, sofi
5) plains, flagstone, wasteland, port, mom, stoneforge, revoker
6) plains, flagstone, cavern, port, vial, flickerwisp, mirran
7) plains, karakas, thalia, revoker, serra, mirran, batterskull
8) 2 wasteland, plains, 2 mom, vial, stoneforge

i would likely mulligan: 2 (no waste/port), 3 (f'ed without finding another white source fast), 4 (seems too slow). i might not be happy with all of the other options, but i think they're keepable. how much of an emphasis do you all place on having a 1 drop in the opener?

3 is bad for sure. 6 is a bit soft. The others are all decent to solid. 2 has no turn 1 play but excellent turn 2 and 3 options. Of course if you topdeck another Karakas on one of those turns it starts to look kinda bad bit I keep that for sure. 4 is not slow. It is beautiful! You could turn 1 vial and possibly double Wasteland turn 2 to jump very far ahead.

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Originally Posted by neddsaurus

i have a fairly diverse meta at my lgs. i don't really find myself mulliganing much unless i have 0 lands. i wanted to get some input on whether you guys would keep these hands against an unknown deck.

1) 3x plains, mom, stp, 2 revokers
2) 2 karakas, 2 plains, flagstone, stoneforge, thalia
3) plains, mom, revoker, jitte, mangara, mirran, brimaz
4) 2 wasteland, 2 vial, 2 flickerwisp, sofi
5) plains, flagstone, wasteland, port, mom, stoneforge, revoker
6) plains, flagstone, cavern, port, vial, flickerwisp, mirran
7) plains, karakas, thalia, revoker, serra, mirran, batterskull
8) 2 wasteland, plains, 2 mom, vial, stoneforge

i would likely mulligan: 2 (no waste/port), 3 (f'ed without finding another white source fast), 4 (seems too slow). i might not be happy with all of the other options, but i think they're keepable. how much of an emphasis do you all place on having a 1 drop in the opener?

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I'd keep 3) on the draw, mull otherwise.
I would *maybe* consider mulling 4) and 7) due to a combination of no 1 drop play and having an equipment in hand. In a stoneforge deck the equipment is a bit of a virtual loss. (like Tendrils opener in storm).

When I say "no 1 drop play," I'd include StP in that equation. If I don't have Vial or mom, I'd at least feel better about having a removal answer to something they might play.

Re: equipment in opening 7...
Batterskull in your 7 is very close to a dead card. But if you resolve Mystic on turn 2 and fetch up a Jitte, that Batterskull you started with is all money. Your opponent thinks you are bringing in Jitte. You get a big surprise blocker/attacker. That is the kind of thing that wins games.

Hey guys, I've been having some real trouble with the philipp schoenegger ponder miracles matchup, especially in game one.

My vial gets forced, they plow all my dudes and terminus everything when I get even a modicum of board presence going. Then they entreat for 3 or 4 and that's game.

I don't really understand what I'm doing wrong... I've played the matchup a zillion times from the goblins side of the table and have an almost 100% win rate, even against experienced miracles pilots who have terminus'd me 4 times in 1 game.

I understand that such a blank statement is pretty hard to give advice on, but what are the things I can do against miracles?
Here's my current list which I've updated through the reading of the posts on this forum. http://www.mtgvault.com/steve2112rush/decks/dnt/

After game 1 I obviously get access to cataclysm/armageddon/pithing needle, but game 1 against miracles (for me at least) is a miserable experience.

I see Cataclysm as a skill crutch in that match-up, but that's just me.

The key in this match-up is to grind them into the dirt. In general, you slowly get a few points of damage here and there, and that adds up quickly.

You can't compare that to the Goblins match-up where you can refill your hand easily and spam them to death.

Force them into 1-on-1 trades as often as possible, especially with Terminus. Don't overextend, normally 1-2 creatures on the board are enough, keep the rest for the time after the sweeper reset. Make the most out of your Flickerwisps. Use your equipment to put pressure on them without playing more creatures.

It took me a while to get a hang of the match-up, since it's pretty skill-intensive for both sides. And even if you're positive against Miracles, it's still a miserable experience. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Barook

I see Cataclysm as a skill crutch in that match-up, but that's just me.

The key in this match-up is to grind them into the dirt. In general, you slowly get a few points of damage here and there, and that adds up quickly.

You can't compare that to the Goblins match-up where you can refill your hand easily and spam them to death.

Force them into 1-on-1 trades as often as possible, especially with Terminus. Don't overextend, normally 1-2 creatures on the board are enough, keep the rest for the time after the sweeper reset. Make the most out of your Flickerwisps. Use your equipment to put pressure on them without playing more creatures.

It took me a while to get a hang of the match-up, since it's pretty skill-intensive for both sides. And even if you're positive against Miracles, it's still a miserable experience. :wink:

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All very true. If you are approaching the matchup like a goblins player you are not going to succeed. Let me add an angle to this. The biggest reason D+T took so long to catch on is the same reason opponents new to it can not believe they just lost to it. This also accounts for the difficult learning curve and probably a few other peculiarities about the deck.

It's all about the subtleties.

There is a particular mindset you have to adopt to pilot this deck. You have to get up all in their business and just know that you are fucking with them even though you often can not directly observe the effects your disruption measures are having on your opponent. The land you tapped on upkeep prevented his big turn. Your untapped Vial stopped what really would have been a profitable attack for him due to his fear of the unknown in your hand. Mangara's very presence on the field is delaying him from casting Jace until after he has some sort of way to handle it. He waited a turn to cast Terminus because you always leave your Karakas untapped. A Storm pilot seemed to have waited too long to go off for no reason, but really he could not get his mana right after you Revoked Lion's Eye Diamond.

D+T ain't aggro. You want the game to go long. Amazingly, Terminus is not especially good against D+T if you know how to play against it. Don't overextend. The best D+T players leave observers scratching their heads about the way they are using their resources because they are less interested in getting in more damage and more interested in squeezing extra damage from what they have. That said, most good plays are visible. Just keep in mind that you want to exert control not so much over the opponent, but over the game environment. D+T games are almost never a blowout in your favor. You have to gain incremental advantage from lots of smart plays.



Facing Miracles, it is perfectly fine to end your turn with creatures in hand that you could have cast. Hit him for a few points a turn while keeping his options limited.

Questions about sideboarding:

- I see that most lists play at most 2 Containment Priests. When this card was first spoiled I thought it would be a defacto 4-of in every DnT lists because it seems to cover so much ground vs. Elves, SnT, Dredge, and Reanimator. Why are most lists running only 2 if any at all?
- I see lists (especially on MTGO) playing Ethersworn Canonists (some even 3-4 of!) in the sideboard. This seems like a new development to me - is this primarily to fight Elves and Storm or is there some specific reason maybe on MTGO to be playing this in addition to Thalia?

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Originally Posted by Barook

I see Cataclysm as a skill crutch in that match-up, but that's just me.

The key in this match-up is to grind them into the dirt. In general, you slowly get a few points of damage here and there, and that adds up quickly.

You can't compare that to the Goblins match-up where you can refill your hand easily and spam them to death.

Force them into 1-on-1 trades as often as possible, especially with Terminus. Don't overextend, normally 1-2 creatures on the board are enough, keep the rest for the time after the sweeper reset. Make the most out of your Flickerwisps. Use your equipment to put pressure on them without playing more creatures.

It took me a while to get a hang of the match-up, since it's pretty skill-intensive for both sides. And even if you're positive against Miracles, it's still a miserable experience. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Finn

All very true. If you are approaching the matchup like a goblins player you are not going to succeed. Let me add an angle to this. The biggest reason D+T took so long to catch on is the same reason opponents new to it can not believe they just lost to it. This also accounts for the difficult learning curve and probably a few other peculiarities about the deck.

It's all about the subtleties.

There is a particular mindset you have to adopt to pilot this deck. You have to get up all in their business and just know that you are fucking with them even though you often can not directly observe the effects your disruption measures are having on your opponent. The land you tapped on upkeep prevented his big turn. Your untapped Vial stopped what really would have been a profitable attack for him due to his fear of the unknown in your hand. Mangara's very presence on the field is delaying him from casting Jace until after he has some sort of way to handle it. He waited a turn to cast Terminus because you always leave your Karakas untapped. A Storm pilot seemed to have waited too long to go off for no reason, but really he could not get his mana right after you Revoked Lion's Eye Diamond.

D+T ain't aggro. You want the game to go long. Amazingly, Terminus is not especially good against D+T if you know how to play against it. Don't overextend. The best D+T players leave observers scratching their heads about the way they are using their resources because they are less interested in getting in more damage and more interested in squeezing extra damage from what they have. That said, most good plays are visible. Just keep in mind that you want to exert control not so much over the opponent, but over the game environment. D+T games are almost never a blowout in your favor. You have to gain incremental advantage from lots of smart plays.



Facing Miracles, it is perfectly fine to end your turn with creatures in hand that you could have cast. Hit him for a few points a turn while keeping his options limited.

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These in depth responses have been really helpful, thanks Barook and Finn! There's a lot for me to think about, cheers guys!

And yuh, playing against miracles is a miserable, no doubt about it :laugh:

Hi guys.

I'm a new Omnitell player. My match-up against yours looks very hard. Do you have any advice? Ethersworn Canonist and Thalia looks like an absolute beating.

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Originally Posted by MGB

Questions about sideboarding:

- I see that most lists play at most 2 Containment Priests. When this card was first spoiled I thought it would be a defacto 4-of in every DnT lists because it seems to cover so much ground vs. Elves, SnT, Dredge, and Reanimator. Why are most lists running only 2 if any at all?
- I see lists (especially on MTGO) playing Ethersworn Canonists (some even 3-4 of!) in the sideboard. This seems like a new development to me - is this primarily to fight Elves and Storm or is there some specific reason maybe on MTGO to be playing this in addition to Thalia?

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- SnT & Reanimator are some of D&T's best match-ups. And you don't need any help after sideboarding against Dredge since RiP + E-Tutor tends to destroy them. I just don't see the appeal outside of Elves.
- According to Bahra, he runs it for the Elves match-up. I'm not a fan of cutting E-Tutor for that.