All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

There are quite a few cards they COULD take off.. like Mindtwist, Mind's Desire, Earthcraft...

But I think the card that ought to come off cause it might actually do something relevant in Legacy is.. Survival of the Fittest.

We have more recently acquired cards such as Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite Shaman, which are quite good against Survival. Even if it tries to dump a bunch of Vengevines into the yard, there are answers. Pithing Needle, QPM, GSZ --> QPM, Rest in Peace, Cage... I really don't think it would be nearly as dangerous as it was.

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QPM, enchantment removal, needle, extirpate and spell snare were cards before. There are 2 points about Survival: First it would define Legacy Main-/Sideboards like Workshops/dredge do in Vintage and Second, people back then showed that the pet-syndrom made them unable to alter their maindecks. Most Players rather bitched about survival than changing the counterspells in their UW counterbalance Decks into spell snares etc.

We already discussed this shit to Death in the History of this thread. WotC Main Problem with the Card is, that it's a repeatable tutor.

Suggesting 3-mana solutions like Ooze or 4-mana fixing like GSZ->QPM is laughable. Survival was an Aggro-Combo Deck; if you can Control the graveyard they just hardcast the hasty Vines and smash your Face

Bannings were huge for Pauper though.

Grapeshot, EtW, and Invigorate banned.
About damn time, Storm and Infect were ruining Pauper Online.
I switched to playing Infect because it's practically unbeatable. I have roughly a 75% match win % and if you factor out matches decided by land screw, mull to oblivion, and opponent god hands it's probably closer to 85%.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Bannings were huge for Pauper though.

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The bannings were even huger for Modern. I think it's pretty safe to say now that in Modern, the winningest decks and the fastest decks are going to be regularly targeted by bans. They set the bar for bannings so low, there's no way decks won't continue to rise above it. Overall, Modern is moving in a very different direction from Legacy or Old Extended, and it will never have a "powered" feel to it like Legacy.

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Originally Posted by DLifshitz

Overall, Modern is moving in a very different direction from Legacy or Old Extended, and it will never have a "powered" feel to it like Legacy.

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I almost want to play Modern, since all I really needs is shocks and some cheap stuff and it is easier to find opponents, but it will never be 'real' magic. I have been playing a long time, and don't want to play without iconic cards. Dark Ritual, Swords to Plowshares, Brainstorm, 'real' dual lands. The game isn't the same without them.

Also, the modern banned list is a total joke. I haven't really looked at it before just now, but Preordain and the powerhouse of Sword of the Meek? Really?

Sword of the Meek was part of the Thopter-Depths deck which was actually very good. I wouldn't mind playing Modern if I could play that deck again.

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Originally Posted by burtonbaron62

I almost want to play Modern, since all I really needs is shocks and some cheap stuff and it is easier to find opponents, but it will never be 'real' magic. I have been playing a long time, and don't want to play without iconic cards. Dark Ritual, Swords to Plowshares, Brainstorm, 'real' dual lands. The game isn't the same without them.

Also, the modern banned list is a total joke. I haven't really looked at it before just now, but Preordain and the powerhouse of Sword of the Meek? Really?

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WotC bans everything that fuels any combo as long as this combo is able to being executed before an average aggro deck kills you. Or the other way round: Combo in Modern is supposed to loose against aggro in general and needs to be slowed enought that moderns 2/3/4-mana-Counter work against it

So they ban seething song together with the oppressive BBE to keep the power gap between Aggro and combo

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Originally Posted by DLifshitz

The bannings were even huger for Modern. I think it's pretty safe to say now that in Modern, the winningest decks and the fastest decks are going to be regularly targeted by bans. They set the bar for bannings so low, there's no way decks won't continue to rise above it.

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I feel I have to defend the banning of Bloodbraid Elf. Jund wasn't just the "winningest" deck, it was the winningest deck. Here's some statistics that I think are illuminating. Jund won three Modern Grand Prix in a row. In a row. And in the fourth? It got second place. It also got second place at the Pro Tour.

In the PTQ season so far, Jund has, according to this, won 14 of the Pro Tour Qualifiers. In second place is Birthing Pod, which won 5. There's a bit of a noticeable difference there.

I do not think that these are "low standards" for bannings. Now I'll be honest and say I would have rather seen some unbannings...there are a number of cards on the ban list I do not think should be on there and would strengthen decks that could fire back against Jund. But banning or unbanning, something had to be done about Jund. I just really wish they had taken the opportunity to unban something like Ancestral Vision, though. (especially considering Bloodbraid Elf being banned nixes fears that Jund would just splash Blue for it and sometimes cascade into it)

The Seething Song ban did kind of come out of nowhere though.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

I feel I have to defend the banning of Bloodbraid Elf. Jund wasn't just the "winningest" deck, it was the winningest deck. Here's some statistics that I think are illuminating. Jund won three Modern Grand Prix in a row. In a row. And in the fourth? It got second place. It also got second place at the Pro Tour.

In the PTQ season so far, Jund has, according to this, won 14 of the Pro Tour Qualifiers. In second place is Birthing Pod, which won 5. There's a bit of a noticeable difference there.

I do not think that these are "low standards" for bannings. Now I'll be honest and say I would have rather seen some unbannings...there are a number of cards on the ban list I do not think should be on there and would strengthen decks that could fire back against Jund. But banning or unbanning, something had to be done about Jund. I just really wish they had taken the opportunity to unban something like Ancestral Vision, though. (especially considering Bloodbraid Elf being banned nixes fears that Jund would just splash Blue for it and sometimes cascade into it)

The Seething Song ban did kind of come out of nowhere though.

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Not really, the writing was on the wall once Goblin Electromancer was spoiled for RTR. It fuels Storm combo and Belcher like nothing else before or since. No Arguments with BBE, though - the best 2-for-1 in the format.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

I feel I have to defend the banning of Bloodbraid Elf.

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Yeah, by the criteria that they set for Modern, Jund probably was due for a ban. My point is, these criteria are so low that as new sets and new powerful cards are added to Modern, they will push some decks over the threshold, and the older cards will keep getting banned. Deathrite Shaman and Bloodbraid Elf, Goblin Electromancer and Seething Song are examples of Wizards choosing to "rotate" cards in this way. I wish I was wrong and they don't continue to frequently ban cards, but the farther they go in this direction, the harder it will be for them to turn back.

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Originally Posted by DLifshitz

Yeah, by the criteria that they set for Modern, Jund probably was due for a ban. My point is, these criteria are so low that as new sets and new powerful cards are added to Modern, they will push some decks over the threshold, and the older cards will keep getting banned.

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But I don't think it's a low criteria. If a deck was dominating Legacy to the extent Jund was dominating Modern, a ban would be extremely likely. It's not like they don't ever do it in Legacy either, they banned Survival of the Fittest.

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Deathrite Shaman and Bloodbraid Elf, Goblin Electromancer and Seething Song are examples of Wizards choosing to "rotate" cards in this way. I wish I was wrong and they don't continue to frequently ban cards, but the farther they go in this direction, the harder it will be for them to turn back.

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I do agree with this, however. And as I've said, I feel the reason they keep having to ban cards is because previously banned cards that could have helped against them are, well, banned, in some cases rather unjustly in my view.

On the more positive side, it is true they haven't banned any cards for over a year in the Modern format. I just think they should try to start unbanning cards more, particularly considering some of them are in no danger of violating their hallowed turn 4 rule.

I think Deathrite Shaman could be a prime candidate for a ban in Legacy in the next cycle unless the meta can shake it off. Currently it's being played in black decks (bug, junk), blue decks(bug, 4c stoneblade), red decks (jund), green decks (elves), white decks (pikula) and it gets splashed everywhere and anywhere. Kind of reminds me of when MM was being played in all decks. May well be a spike in the metagame for now but if it continues to be a mirror match of Shaman decks grinding each other out it could be well on its way out.

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

I think Deathrite Shaman could be a prime candidate for a ban in Legacy in the next cycle unless the meta can shake it off. Currently it's being played in black decks (bug, junk), blue decks(bug, 4c stoneblade), red decks (jund), green decks (elves), white decks (pikula) and it gets splashed everywhere and anywhere. Kind of reminds me of when MM was being played in all decks. May well be a spike in the metagame for now but if it continues to be a mirror match of Shaman decks grinding each other out it could be well on its way out.

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I think the meta just needs to adjust to more Punishing Fires and more maindeck cards like Rest in Peace, which blanks Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, Nimble Mongoose, Snapcaster Mage, Lingering Souls Flashback, Eternal Witness, Reanimate, Entomb, Exhume, Gifts Ungiven, Dredge, lands.dec's intuitions/life from the loams/wasteland recursion/academy ruins recursion, and I'm sure there are a couple of others that I missed. Nonbasic land hate also works great (Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon) and Revoker helps too.

So what if Deathrite Shaman is becoming a format staple? Dark Confidant and Stoneforge Mystic are or were played in a lot of decks and can be considered staples, so do you want them banned too?

Stoneforge Mystic: green (Maverick), white (Death and Taxes, Deadguy Ale), black (The Rock/Junk), blue (Stoneblade/Esperblade, some Miracles hybrids), red (some Zoo variants).

I never said I wanted to see Deathrite Shaman banned, I said it could be a potential candidate if the meta indeed shapes to become over saturated with it. There was a time when meta was oversaturated with SFM during mental misstep nowadays it's just considered a "package" to be switched in and out of the decks you mentioned. Bant, Maverick, Junk, Miracles switch over to SFM package when meta calls for it. Deathrite is like the SFM in the old times, centerpiece of each deck.

The difference between 1CMC Shaman and 2CMC Mystic or Confi is huge. If I remember correctly there was a certain 1CMC card, which was included in nearly every deck at one point and shortly banned right after print. Sure it was no creature, but the fact that this card is easily splashed into decks makes it a possible ban candidate.
I dont think it is necessary, but I recognize the fact that this two cards have alot in common.
Furthermore Mental Misstep was just a 1 for 1 at best and often dead while Shaman is great through the entire game. I think you should at least respect the fact that this card is heavily warping the meta (just like delver did) and there is a certain threshold for this to be a reason for banning.

Deathrite Shaman & Abrupt Decay changed the meta in a way that B/G is a competitive color combination. Before that B/G was not really that interesting. Still, the other established decks and "supreme" color combiations like UR, UW, UWr, UWb, GW are still viable. They have to adapt and they loose in popularity but that makes the meta more diverse and interesting.

Comparing it to mental misstep is so wrong. MM, FoW & Brainstorm created a blue package you should start building your deck with pushing many decks completely out of the meta and even non blue decks were better off cutting their worst 4 cards and playing MM.

Deathrite & Delver is a more fair comparison since both revived existing archetypes (or brought new ones to live). But both cards can be dealt with in different ways... that is an interesting process that is called metagame development. Nothing worth discussing in the banned thread.

Deathrite is broken, and i said it the moment i saw the card (you can check somewhere on the spoiler topic on this site).
But i don't want it banned. It's making lots of decks more viable, and meta hasn't stabilized yet anyway. Black power all the way.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Deathrite is broken, and i said it the moment i saw the card (you can check somewhere on the spoiler topic on this site).
But i don't want it banned. It's making lots of decks more viable, and meta hasn't stabilized yet anyway. Black power all the way.

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I only remember Koby, aggro_zombies, CorpT and catmint talking crap about shaman.

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Originally Posted by preddi

The difference between 1CMC Shaman and 2CMC Mystic or Confi is huge. If I remember correctly there was a certain 1CMC card, which was included in nearly every deck at one point and shortly banned right after print. Sure it was no creature, but the fact that this card is easily splashed into decks makes it a possible ban candidate.
I dont think it is necessary, but I recognize the fact that this two cards have alot in common.
Furthermore Mental Misstep was just a 1 for 1 at best and often dead while Shaman is great through the entire game. I think you should at least respect the fact that this card is heavily warping the meta (just like delver did) and there is a certain threshold for this to be a reason for banning.

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Please, Deathrite Shaman and Mental Misstep do not compare. Your point regarding CMC is ridiculous because Misstep was cast for 2 life most often anyway. Not to mention, it could be played in ANY deck. To use all three abilities of Shaman, you have to be in BGx. The most successful decks packing this card so far are BUG and Jund. BUG was around a long time before Shaman but was not so popular a few months ago around the time when Shaman was printed. Jund definitely became a contender with Shaman, although the similar Rock/Junk (which plays Deathrite Shaman too, but as far as I know not strictly as a 4-of) has also been around for ages.

What's wrong with the abovementioned decks becoming better with the printing of a new card? Which established non-BGx decks are playing Shaman except Elves? Don't forget that Abrupt Decay has also given BG quite a boost, it's not only Deathrite Shaman.

By the way, there are a boatload of cards in Legacy which are easily splashable, so that's not really a good argument.

I am glad the whole g/b combination got some competitive cards. It is a nice shake up in Legacy, out with Reanimator and in with BuG and Junkesque decks.

Everytime a new competitive deck or card enters Legacy, doesn't mean it is time for bannings. It just means we get to enjoy playing against new decks for awhile.

Deathrite Shaman isn't even as overplayed as Tarmogofy was during it's peak.

If I had a wishlist of cards for WotC to print then it would be some Show and Tell hate(preferably a hate bear). Also, I want to see some good monoblack creatures akin to Tombstalker or Nantuko Shade. But I don't think now is a time to ban anything.