Miracle Control

Great article again Einherjer, although I'm a little fuzzy on your D&T SB.

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

-2 Spell Pierce
-3 Counterbalance
-1 Force of Will
+1 Entreat the Angels
+1 Disenchant
+1 Counterspell
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Vendilion Clique

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I'm unsure why you'd rather have the 3 FoW rather than the 3 Counterbalance. You have 3 Counterspells, 2 Cliques, and potentially Counterbalance (with 3-4 4cmcs) to deal with Cataclysm. You have 1 Disenchant and 2 EEs to deal with t1 Aether Vial and a lot of ways to deal with it coming down later. I could see cutting like a Jace and one of the Counterbalances on the play so you could keep Spell Pierce, but FoW just feels pretty bad (especially on the play).

... oh, and 7th edition Foil Disenchant obviously trumps any foreign Wear//Tears.

http://s28.postimg.org/u5935p1m5/image.jpg

My list

22 LANDS
5 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
1 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas

2 CREATURES
2 Vendilion Clique

21 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Supreme Verdict

15 OTHER SPELLS
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Detention Sphere

SIDEBOARD
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Geist of Saint Traft (against combo)
1 wear/tear
1 Humility
2 flusterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mountain

Isn't geist a little too slow against combo? I mean even slower Combodecks such as ANT opt to kill you on turn 4 and i doubt that you want to tap out on turn 3 for something that doesn't affect his combo. Combo rarely needs the ad nauseam to win anyways.

Have you tested Energy field main? ( you might want to add another RIP than though)

Geist is faster than tnn, if you compare the two. However, NO, NO miracle runs geist, just NO. If you want to run combo Hate bear, you should run either Canonist or Meddling Mage.

As to Rip-Helm, it's the weakest build. That list has 2 creatures to pressure opponent's Liliana or Jace. EF is not the direction you want to go. If you insist on doing Enlightened Tutor, you might as well copy BBD's build with Thopter and Blade.

Rip-Helm isn't weaker; it's less forgiving. I played it with 2 Clique and a Thassa to some success. A hardline control deck with an incredibly low amount of win conditions, and then a Helm of Obedience combo to end the game is not a bad strategy, especially if your meta is filled with Giant Dudes.dek. Stealing Griselbrands instead of comboing and playing a better counter game than anyone else is powerful. Especially when you can do it at Instant Speed.

EDIT: It's also a meta choice with regards to what is actually going on. My current build is quite soft to Chalice for example, way moreso than old variants. That's partly why I play 4 Jace. If your meta is soft to hard style control decks with thinks like Jund and non-True-Name Blade decks (which consists of like one deck now) then you'll do well. With True-Blade you might struggle as your Terminuses are less reliable.

I always wrote the card off as just plain bad, but Teferi's Response? The Tsabo's Web Paulo ran against Death and Taxes made me reconsider the card. It doesn't cantrip, but the only deck you run these cards against is Death and Taxes, and that deck is the best performing on MODO, currently. It's not like it'll take long before Death and Taxes wastes, or even better, ports you.

Tsabo's Web stays in play. You get to Wasteland your opponent for 2-mana, and that's not what we're after. We want a repeatable/continuous effect, which is why Blood Moon and Back to Basics see play.

You also draw 2 cards.

You're forgetting that web isn't mostly there for rishadan port or wasteland. It's there to stop Karakas from infinitely bouncing a Thalia or Brimaz or Mangara (if they run it). The main way you lose against Death and Taxes is if they get a legendary threat with a Karakas to protect it. Especially if they have vial to keep replaying.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

You're forgetting that web isn't mostly there for rishadan port or wasteland. It's there to stop Karakas from infinitely bouncing a Thalia or Brimaz or Mangara (if they run it). The main way you lose against Death and Taxes is if they get a legendary threat with a Karakas to protect it. Especially if they have vial to keep replaying.

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Yeah, I remembered Karakas earlier, but didn't bother with another post. I'd say that makes the difference.

I suppose this might not be the appropriate thread, then again it's probably less off-topic than most of these posts... But does anyone have any MTGO Miracles staples (Jace and Clique in particular) that they'd be interested in trading for real cards? I have a ton of Legacy staples that I'm not really using and I'd feel less guilty about trading for MTGO cards than buying them. lol Just message me if anyone is interested. Anyways, this thread could use a bump, everyone seems to be laying low lately.

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

Rip-Helm isn't weaker; it's less forgiving.

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Oh, and also, this isn't really the distinction that I'd make. It's not so much about forgiveness or power level, if anything an insta-win is more powerful. I think the better distinction is that RIP builds have higher varience than straight Miracle builds. RIP is either amazing or worthless. Helm either wins on the spot or rots in your hand. In the day and age where many people are cutting down to three Plows, I don't know that RIP-nuke-your-goyf! is something that is high priority in the meta right now.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Anyways, this thread could use a bump, everyone seems to be laying low lately..

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imo the reason for this is that the core of Miracles has not only been settled, but also expanded to about 52-56 cards in the MD. Despite funky MD blasts there haven't been any innovations going on lately.
SB tech is a different story though and I feel there is still some room for fruitful ponderings, though at the end of the day there is no right or wrong, as it comes down to personal preference and local meta calls.
As a side note, this is what I'm rocking atm (straight UW):
3 RiP
1 Pithing Needle
1 Canonist
2 Clique's (1 in the MD)
2 Pierce (2 in the MD)
3 Fluster Storm
1 Terminus (3 Terminus / 1 S. Verdict in the MD)
1 S. Verdict
1 Disenchant (1 EE, 1 UA in the MD)

2-3 new cards like Unexpectedly Absent are decent but far from changing the deck's playstyle and thus spark little discussion.

I could definitely see a lot of benefits in dissecting very specific scenarios and discuss the right choices, something which hasn't happened too much on the past 200 something pages.

Let's give it a shot!
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G1 against an unknown opponent. You're on the play having kept this hand:
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Top
2 STP
1 Pierce
1 Terminus
(I know - pretty decent..)

Q1: Are you going to play Top or go "Island, go"?
Q2: What if you're on the draw and your opponent went "Arid Mesa, go."?
Q3: Would you keep this if Top was another Plains?
Q4: Against an unknown opponent, what card would you like draw next?
Q5: Would you keep this hand if your opponent was on ANT?

Qx: What scenario did you come across recently that you'd like to share and discuss?

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Originally Posted by klaus

G1 against an unknown opponent. You're on the play having kept this hand:
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Top
2 STP
1 Pierce
1 Terminus

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by klaus

Q1: Are you going to play Top or go "Island, go"?

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Most likely Top since I'm more afraid of being Dazed/Pierced than I am of being killed on t1. Likewise, if they go Swamp -> Discard then I'll simply be protecting my Top with Pierce regardless.

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Originally Posted by klaus

Q2: What if you're on the draw and your opponent went "Arid Mesa, go."?

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This is a little trickier. I'd say that in order of likelihood, you're playing against Goblins, American Delver, or Miracles. Getting Dazed or Pierced here might be enough of a concern where I'd want to be able to protect my Top next turn (since Top is really the only thing holding this hand together).

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Originally Posted by klaus

Q3: Would you keep this if Top was another Plains?

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Against an unknown you'd probably have to, but without manipulation, this hand has a lot of potential to do nothing.

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Originally Posted by klaus

Q4: Against an unknown opponent, what card would you like draw next?

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Probably a fetchland or Brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by klaus

Q5: Would you keep this hand if your opponent was on ANT?

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No. Three dead cards is a lot. A topdecked Counterspell or Counterbalance is uncastable and a topdecked FoW still likely leaves you with the same amount of protection (you'd have to spin and find a Blue card to pitch).

I might be playing this tomorrow at SCG Seattle, but I hate playing against BGx. Either I have really bad luck, or the other board isn't great against it. We'll see what happens.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I might be playing this tomorrow at SCG Seattle, but I hate playing against BGx. Either I have really bad luck, or the other board isn't great against it. We'll see what happens.

-Matt

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What does your SB look like?

First, on the SB I feel like 3 RIP is excessive. I would always run an enlightened tutor before the 3rd RIP just to have a bit more flexibility.

Some good questions. I was thinking that at sometime we should to some game theory for the deck.

Q1: Definitely play top. It's your best card in basically every matchup. The odds of your seeing an opposing counterspell after their turn 1 is significantly higher than you first playing a deck that can kill you turn one and secondly drawing an opener that actually does it.

Q2: You can't play top here, as much as you want to. It's the most powerful card in that hand and you really need to see it resolved. The arid mesa with no first turn plays very likely is hinting at a deck with blue, either Miracles or UWR delver (I think Goblins is very unlikely). Plus, the opponent isn't presenting any pressure or a reason for you play top to start finding cards quite yet.

Q3: While I don't enjoy this hand with a plains because it really has no value cards, I think this is reasonable. You have answers vs. creatures and spells, plus a stable mana base. While I like my openers to have at least one value card (and no miracles), I think the average mulligan is scarier than this.

Q4: First I would love to see a fetchland. That gets me my third land + I get to see three extra cards with top.

Q5: I think you have to mulligan this hand because it doesn't have double blue and also doesn't have another blue card. against ANT you're basically on a mull to 4 anyway with that hand, so I think you can find something better.

In other news, I'm probably going to be moving to a UW stoneblade/miracles hybrid list because I really want to play with Mishra's Factories right now.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

In other news, I'm probably going to be moving to a UW stoneblade/miracles hybrid list because I really want to play with Mishra's Factories right now.

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Playing colorless sources seems really scary.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

In other news, I'm probably going to be moving to a UW stoneblade/miracles hybrid list because I really want to play with Mishra's Factories right now.

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There's a separate thread for Blade control, you don't need to post here then.

If you look at BBD's Thopter blade or Oarsman's Legend Miracle or Ein's Snapcaster-centric Miracle, none of them use Mishra's Factory. The only logical deck that uses Mishra is BUG Landstill. Therefore, that land should not be the reason for you to want to play Blade version. Blade and Mishra aren't even related. Like what BBD said on his deck tech, the only reason to run Blade is you have some unexplainable hate against Entreat.

So it looks like BBD brought Thopters back..? It seems alright I suppose, but I have trouble thinking of the advantages it gives over more streamline builds. Either way, there's a whole lot of Miracles in the Top 16. It definitely seems worth it to prepare for the mirror.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

So it looks like BBD brought Thopters back..? It seems alright I suppose, but I have trouble thinking of the advantages it gives over more streamline builds. Either way, there's a whole lot of Miracles in the Top 16. It definitely seems worth it to prepare for the mirror.

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BBD had zero Entreat one Preordain
Adam Ruprecht had one Entreat zero Preordain

Everything else is equally awkward.

Adam's match against Deathblade in the Top 8 took 81 minutes, I lost interested at one point when Choke resolved.

Side note, Brent Traut mentioned he chose Lossett Miracles [U/W/R Miracles] in his Top 8 profile, and he did. He had the most up-to-date identical 75 Lossett streamed with and ran with. Not surprised if he knows Joe personally. Congrats to Brent's Top 8 finish, if he posts on source as well.