Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
Port and Karakas are some of my favorite cards in the deck, and I love even just talking about them. I'll start with Port.
Awhile ago I made as thorough a "+/-" list as I could for Port and Ghost Quarter, but I don't feel much like digging it out. The exercise is probably better if done by the pilot considering the question and the context of the particular metagame and sideboard we're playing in.
For my money (literally because Port is more expensive than it should be imho), Port gets the nod. I play RUG, a very light splash with one Trop and 2 EE in the deck, and everything else straight RG. It was hard for me to hang up my Intuitions, though I was happy to get rid of Tolaria West due to how slow it is. Anyway, that's neither here nor there.
Rishadan Port goes up in value if a couple of things are going on. First, it's better if your board is equipped with sphere effects. The more sphere effects, and the less CotV you play, the better Port will bring. Port doesn't help Chalice cut anything off, and Chalice@2 is probably never ever going to get cast out of Lands, and 3 is barely even thinkable.... so Port offers no help and GQ doesn't really interact with either plan.
Rishadan Port gets a bit of value added to it if you're going to be playing against Sneaky Show or Miracles more than Delver and friends (or other decks where it's a Strip Mine, too many to list). Against Miracles now I'm almost beyond caring, since Jace falls to the fires without much trouble now that Counterbalance doesn't protect him. Sneaky Show is going to remain a bad matchup (not a little bad, ultra bad) so that almost doesn't matter, either.
These are pretty minor. In my view, the real reason to play Port is if you're playing Engineered Explosives. EE is so mana hungry that you need to be building up a base for awhile in order to get 3 counters on it and crack it immediately: so that's 5. Eight if you want to recur it immediately, so 5 minimum if you only want to crack it on 1 counter. These mana-hungry plays aren't easy to make if your GQs are in the grave vs. Ports that are on the field.
Port copies better with Stage, which is a good reason to run it. GQ isn't as good in that scenario.
The most ruthless (if a bit corner) use of Rishadan Port is to tap an opponent's Island into a Choke. I have renewed my love for Choke and am playing the card, my single Tropical Island be damned.
Karakas I don't think makes the cut for a sideboard card. It hits opposing Marit Lage tokens, Thalia, rarely Emrakul... I don't see the value for it anymore, though it does make the mirror far more convenient. It doesn't produce the right color of mana. I have cut Karakas and have not missed the card. I think the "card drawing" lands (Canopy, Tranquil, Sheltered) are all better than that right now. We don't need to care about Thalia (burn her with fire) like other control decks do.
Does anyone have any Mirror results at this time? I'd like to try the card, but actually I'm starting to come out against CMC 3 spells in the deck as I am very often Exploding that number. Choke is an exception!
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
The more sphere effects, and the less CotV you play, the better Port will bring. Port doesn't help Chalice cut anything off, and Chalice@2 is probably never ever going to get cast out of Lands...
vs Storm, CotV on 2 cuts them off Recall or Echoing Truth, thus protecting the Chalices on 0 & 1. I've done this before - they scoop.
More on point, Port does have synergy with Chalice.
Chalice on 1 has a similar effect as Sphere, in that the opponent needs 2 mana to cast anything. Ports can slow them off of that (and give you time to find more denial and/or the combo).
Otherwise, excellent post!
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
Anybody know what David Longs list looks like atm? I'm watching the SCG tour and they mentioned that hes playing main board burning with, and It sounds very interesting.
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
3 Lands in the top 8 of the team constructed SCG this weekend! Also, 3 in the top 16 of the classic, one of which splashes black for Decay and Thoughtseize. Good time for lands!
Also, David Longs list is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=115059
Very interesting Burning Wish package he went with.
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chatto
@ TLK and OSM: I'm on 4 GQ, lot of greedy manabases in my meta. Unless your meta is filled with combo (SnT, Storm-based) I feel like GQ is the better choice. About Karakas: it's been in my sb for almost a year now. It will stay there for the time being.
@ grmpytopdecker: Congrats! How did you find the mirror-, and Infect-MU?
I have played a lot of the mirror, there is a very good Lands player at my LGS. I sideboard out some Depths and get on the Tracker + Bog loop plan. Works quite well.
Infect I am less sure about. I think I am overboarding -- I brought in Spheres and KGrips and Grudge and sided out Mazes and some other stuff. Both Infect folks said Maze was the thing they worried the most about. Don't they play Vines to make their creatures hexproof?
Yesterday I went 2-2. no-show rnd 1, lost to Alluren round 2, punted against OmniShow g3 (could've made a token and survived an Emrakuhl attack but brain-locked and rotated for a Karakas) and beat Infect 2-0
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Emrakul503
3 Lands in the top 8 of the team constructed SCG this weekend! Also, 3 in the top 16 of the classic, one of which splashes black for Decay and Thoughtseize. Good time for lands!
Also, David Longs list is here:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=115059
Very interesting Burning Wish package he went with.
Interesting Wishplan, love the devastating dreams, but it only answers TNN along with Tabernacle, and TNN is about my biggest concern against fair decks.
Maybe a blacksplash for Toxic Deluge, although it's quite demanding on the manabase (you always want green, need red for Wish, and Black for Deluge)?
In black there's also Last Rites (Kurt Spiess played this once long ago) against combo, a bit slow but probably the best anti-combo-sorcery considering a manacurve of 2 (Wish) into 3 (Rites).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
grmpytopdecker
Infect I am less sure about. I think I am overboarding -- I brought in Spheres and KGrips and Grudge and sided out Mazes and some other stuff. Both Infect folks said Maze was the thing they worried the most about. Don't they play Vines to make their creatures hexproof?
I wouldn't board in spheres against infect, as we also want to play multiple effects a turn.
Kgrips and Grudge are handy for the hate and you can always use them on Inkmoth too.
But why would you want to side out maze, as they need to deal combat damage?
Sure they can play Vines, but you could also respond to Vines with Pfire, or crop for Chasm.
Those are quite some angles for them to cover.
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ingo
Interesting Wishplan, love the devastating dreams, but it only answers TNN along with Tabernacle, and TNN is about my biggest concern against fair decks.
Maybe a blacksplash for Toxic Deluge, although it's quite demanding on the manabase (you always want green, need red for Wish, and Black for Deluge)?
In black there's also
Last Rites (Kurt Spiess played this once long ago) against combo, a bit slow but probably the best anti-combo-sorcery considering a manacurve of 2 (Wish) into 3 (Rites).
.
Speaking of TNN; what are people using as gameplans to beat it? Just combo faster? Keep them off lands? Some tech I'm missing? Or just relying on Drop of Honey?
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
walked
Speaking of TNN; what are people using as gameplans to beat it? Just combo faster? Keep them off lands? Some tech I'm missing? Or just relying on Drop of Honey?
EE
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
TNN has never been a problem for me. Either he can't be cast to begin with because I'm all up in that manabase, or he lands before I get all up in that manabase and Tabernacle takes him down, or he does not deal enough damage before Marit Lage is decisive, or he gets stuck in a Glacial Chasm, or of course my favorite thing to do to him is blow him up along with all the other CMC 3 rubbish with Engineered Explosives.
I'd say it's probably more of an issue for straight RG with no U for EE (whoopee it's alphabet time today), but straight RG plays more combo cards and this switches one answer (killing it) for another (killing the other player). It is therefore unlikely to be much of an issue for either deck.
I'm really happy to be in a meta where the fair decks are trying to go bigger than each other and out-fair themselves because most of the cards they do that with are just embarrassing against Lands. TNN is a good problem to have.
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
I am going to put Blue down for a few weeks and try Wish. Mostly because the idea of casting a card like Dreams just makes me happy.
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I am going to put Blue down for a few weeks and try Wish. Mostly because the idea of casting a card like Dreams just makes me happy.
I'm thinking of putting blue away to try the RGb version (I've played lots of RUGb, but never straight RGb). I need 1 Decay, 1 Vortex, and 4 Thoughtseizes though (and I'm poor).
Regarding Zac Dalton's list, I can't imagine splashing black without Nether Void. That card is just so good!
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
I'm thinking of putting blue away to try the RGb version (I've played lots of RUGb, but never straight RGb). I need 1 Decay, 1 Vortex, and 4 Thoughtseizes though (and I'm poor).
Regarding Zac Dalton's list, I can't imagine splashing black without Nether Void. That card is just so good!
Nether Void is (was) great but seems too slow.
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
You'll probably never going to cast Nether Void. Great card, I had two but indeed too slow in most cases.
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OldSpellMaster
Nether Void is (was) great but seems too slow.
If we can land a CotV vs Storm (or resolve a Thoughtseize), we should buy enough time to play it. I guess it's better with Ports, which facilitate a higher curve than GQ.
Storm has been ramping up on artifact hate lately, but they pretty much can't win through NV.
And it shuts down Omniscience if you put it in with S&T.
Storm and Omnitell haven't gotten any faster, so I don't see NV as being too slow compared to a year or two ago. I used to play it in RUGb, though. Maybe it's a poorer fit in RGb?
Edit - I really don't understand why everyone seems to think we need to be so much faster these days. Like Lormador says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lormador
I'm really happy to be in a meta where the fair decks are trying to go bigger than each other and out-fair themselves because most of the cards they do that with are just embarrassing against Lands.
But at the same everyone seems to think T.West - an uncounterable tutor that finds EE, Zorb, CotV, or any land - is too slow. It's 3 mana and we have 8+ excellerants (and we can grind as well as anyone).
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
Edit - I really don't understand why everyone seems to think we need to be so much faster these days.
The meta hasn't changed in needing more speed. There are multiple ways to play Lands, more combo-oriented or controlminded depending on the players mindset. It's one of the phrases of Jody Keith's decktech that stuck for me, that Lands can be tweaked in many different ways, depending on the players mindset.
But I do think that some exemplar players, Jody Keith in particular, are playing a more combominded game. Look at the maindeck Tomb. He also described Lands as combo-control for example. And not control-combo, as most of us would probably describe the deck. Might be coïncidence though.
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
I don't think it's the 3 mana that kills T West, it's the UU in the cost that must be paid at sorcery speed. That's pretty poor against DRS, and I think the UU necessitates double Tropical Island... and now we're looking at Intuition > Gamble. Either that, or we're going to have a tough manabase. I've tried playing several configurations of mana-producing lands to support bases featuring Intuition + Gamble and it's always been awkward at best.
Then I laid out all the tutors side by side and asked which ones I really wanted in my deck. The combotastic, no drawback Tinkeresque Crop Rotation is auto 4-of. Intuition + Tolaria West has this appeal of being able to find everything and solve any problem, but that cost of 3 means you are giving your opponent the opportunity to assemble whatever his deck does to stop that spell from resolving: up to and including just killing you before it can be cast. Counterspell, Daze, Spell Pierce, discard spells, tax effects, a fast Eldrazi beatdown, Tendrils of Agony, all are live against Intuition. Against the workaday Gamble, however, there's must so much less the other player can do. I'm very unlikely to be killed before I can resolve it, tax effects won't stop it, discard has to pluck it T1 on the play, and all the blue spells except Force of Will depend on having mana open or an Island in play. There is, furthermore, an extremely limited opportunity for cantrips to find these reduced answers for the card, whereas with Intuition you're letting the other player Ponder, Brainstorm, fetch, Ponder again before you put it on the stack.
I guess it's possible that Tolaria West is playable without Intuition, since it's the Intuition that I'm really against and not so much the tutor land. I suppose I'll test that out.
I am interested in possibly running Vendilion Clique out of the sideboard, in conjunction with MD Karakas. It seems like a reasonable configuration to offer against any control deck, or the mirror, and a legit way to take out a Leovold (who seems to love boldly attacking into open Maze of Ith and Punishing Fire just as though his 3 power butt were invincible). Far from dead against combo.... but slow of course. Not a bad card to respond to Show and Tell with.
I'm searching for a card that will really put the nail in the coffin against the new Miracles deck.... skilled players have been giving me some trouble. I don't want to go overboard and I don't want to play into their counterspell plan.... perhaps Crucible is the card I want.
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lormador
I don't think it's the 3 mana that kills T West, it's the UU in the cost that must be paid at sorcery speed. That's pretty poor against DRS, and I think the UU necessitates double Tropical Island... and now we're looking at Intuition > Gamble. Either that, or we're going to have a tough manabase. I've tried playing several configurations of mana-producing lands to support bases featuring Intuition + Gamble and it's always been awkward at best.
Then I laid out all the tutors side by side and asked which ones I really wanted in my deck. The combotastic, no drawback Tinkeresque Crop Rotation is auto 4-of. Intuition + Tolaria West has this appeal of being able to find everything and solve any problem, but that cost of 3 means you are giving your opponent the opportunity to assemble whatever his deck does to stop that spell from resolving: up to and including just killing you before it can be cast. Counterspell, Daze, Spell Pierce, discard spells, tax effects, a fast Eldrazi beatdown, Tendrils of Agony, all are live against Intuition. Against the workaday Gamble, however, there's must so much less the other player can do. I'm very unlikely to be killed before I can resolve it, tax effects won't stop it, discard has to pluck it T1 on the play, and all the blue spells except Force of Will depend on having mana open or an Island in play. There is, furthermore, an extremely limited opportunity for cantrips to find these reduced answers for the card, whereas with Intuition you're letting the other player Ponder, Brainstorm, fetch, Ponder again before you put it on the stack.
I guess it's possible that Tolaria West is playable without Intuition, since it's the Intuition that I'm really against and not so much the tutor land. I suppose I'll test that out.
Great post. It's what I wanted to say about Tolaria West and Intuition. I cut Intuition because of the reasons you mentioned plus it is a lost card when loamed away. Well, Gamble is lost as well but I wanna have Gamble in my first hand, Intuition not... And if I have to Intuition into Loam, Academy Ruins and an Artifact, it takes at least another turn until I get to play the Artifact etc.
Oh, and we all sided Intuition out 95% of the time.
So, when Intuition got cut, TW was the only reason to play so much Tropical Islands. Which feels strange. Counterbalance wasn't the big problem anymore, so having that uncounterable tutor wasn't that necessary... Still like TW. Suits well in a Lands deck (it IS a land); but... well... Its not really needed midgame to loamtutor the best cards. Normally you have your stuff done at that point.
So, that was Intuition and TW.
Nether Void: Again, it IS a great card if it hits the board. But same problem as described with Intuition. Opponent has more ways to answer it, you have to draw it, dead if loamed. That's what I meant it's too slow. Just the experience I had with Intuition.
I think a Trinisphere would be something in between. Good vs Omni or Storm etc.
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
I threw together an initial list designed to go hard on blue, running Vendilion Clique, 2 Trops, Intuition, Tolaria West, the whole show really... and I'd say it's a bust. Even taking into account the reduced power level that an experimental list is going to have compared to something close to a GP top 8 list, it's not where it needs to be.
Vendilion Clique did turn out to be pretty nice though, it's a shame the manabase just won't support it. Again though, the value of incremental damage is minimal when we're swinging with a 20/20. Maybe I'll just spend more time watching Jarvis Yu's channel and try to get better with the pure RG version of the deck. I think what's going on right now is that Jarvis is able to very precisely place the 20/20 in whatever gap exists in the opponent's defenses. When I play, it's not as precise, I wind up just generally collecting value and only go for the kill as either desperation or to finish off a totally helpless opponent. This winds up getting me into troublesome situations that I actually should have avoided with better play, and these are situations that Engineered Explosives gets me out of: explaining why I love EE in this deck and seem to win with it quite often.
EDIT: I'm still on my "are there creatures that are good in this deck?" mindset, and I came across Thrun, the Last Troll. The sell: if you're losing against Miracles, with a Jace on the field and counters up the wazoo on the other side, he actually can get you out of that hole. He can outfight a Batterskull, and is phenomenally hard to kill (especially with Karakas). So whereas a card like Choke is more of a crapshoot that you have to set up and resolve by applying pressure and using various bait spells, this on the other hand does not need any setup whatsoever (apart from getting enough mana). Furthermore, it'll be a surprise:a surprising a skilled player is a great way to beat them. Has anyone else tested this out, or am I alone here?
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chatto
You'll probably never going to cast Nether Void. Great card, I had two but indeed too slow in most cases.
I've cast in before. It's lock piece number 7 for me, so I don't need it to be fast with it. It's a nail in the coffin because Storm has almost zero chance to answer it (worlds harder for them than 3Ball).
The only reson I'm not running it lately is because I've cut black. I'd like to put it back in, but it's a lot of deck space if I'm sticking with EE...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lormador
I don't think it's the 3 mana that kills T West, it's the UU in the cost that must be paid at sorcery speed...
...I guess it's possible that Tolaria West is playable without Intuition, since it's the Intuition that I'm really against and not so much the tutor land. I suppose I'll test that out.
Tolaria West is independent of Intuition. I've run it with 0, 1, 2, or 3.
I'm currently running 3/3 Gamble/CR, and 2 T.West.
It doesn't really matter that it's slow. It's there for the grindier matches - it's good in all the matches where CR punts. It can can establish a Chasm lock when Stoneblade is countering your other tutors. It gives you a finisher vs Miracles or D&T through your Chalice. It finds cards in the long game after you Dredge it. Etc.
The only real drawback is the deck space needed for double Trop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lormador
EDIT: I'm still on my "are there creatures that are good in this deck?" mindset, and I came across Thrun, the Last Troll.
I'm happy with Tracker, but I would prefer Prime Time over Thrun. I cost an extra :2:, but that should be okay in the matches where we might want Thrun. Also it can steal the occasional game vs Sneak Show.
Re: [Primer] R/G Combo Lands
Yeah, Prime Time has a special place in my heart as a former 12 Post player. Actually, I bought my Tabernacle originally not out of a desire to play Lands, but as a sideboard card for my 12 Post deck. I then felt sad every time I saw it there, all lonely and unsupported by the rest of the deck, just a souped-up Rishadan Port really in a deck that's happy putting Needles on both Wasteland and Port.
Prime Time definitely has splash value against Sneaky, and works with the colors well, but I fear it's going to get Forced along with the rest of it. Perhaps, returning to your earlier point about T West, the best solution is actually just to run that tutor land to set up EE recursion more efficiently. That recursion has typically been what gives Lands board-control inevitability against other decks, and I suppose it's possible that the source of my troubles has been the fact that, lacking Intuition, setting up that pile is much harder to do. One must admit that the Intuition pile of Loam, EE, Academy Ruins puts a smile on one's face.
I'll also perhaps go on a tour of the win conditions that were retired before I even arrived at the deck to see if any of them hold water in the current meta. That's not to say I'm dissatisfied with Marit Lage, nothing could be further from the truth: but I find examination of win conditions to be educational (as well as a lot of fun). What's on the docket, Creeping Tar Pit (the only man land I'll test), Worm Harvest, and Mindslaver?
