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Its a little more complicated than that since blast can hit permanent in play later, while drawing pierce late is usually a blank.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian
Pierce saw play pre-khans, and will likely see some play again after. It helps deal with the Liliana / Hymn decks that should now come back, as well as being good in the mirror to stop an early counterbalance lock.
It's also great against decks that want to jam Jace ASAP and think they're okay because you don't have red mana open.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
That's just a player being bad, surely people know what Pyroblast does?Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
I have this list in mind now, although it might change a bit.
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Island
1 Plains
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Monastery Mentor
SB: 1 Keranos, God of Storms
I think Spell Pierce is a good choice right now, since it can disrupt so much cards that will see play again (Hymn, Liliana, Sylvan Library, Sneak Attack,.. list goes on).
It might be correct to still play 1 REB effect in the maindeck.
As for the sideboard,I'm testing a bit. I like Keranos a lot versus decks like Shardless BUG,Jund,. which will reappear
People seem not to understand that spell piercing things is not what 4 Ponder miracles wants to do. Most of the time you have a turn 1 play like
-Sword a DRS
-Ponder
-Top
Easy example:
Lets say your opponent plays Fetchland->U_Sea->DRS, passes turn. your hand is: Strand, Top, Ponder, Swords, Spell Pierce, Tundra, Jace. Whats the Play? I guess Strand, keep Pierce up? just to get blown out by Hymn followed by a Daze?
There are bunch of other reasons why not to run it. Generally you just want answers as versatile as possible, especially maindeck. Consequently I'd take Counterspell or Council's Judgment over Pierce any day of the week.
i totally agree, pierce left the maindeck with GP Paris because it was so awkward to draw in lategame! Add that if our opponent knows we are playing those he will play to make that a dead card, plus pierce is a good card if we are on the offense , stealing our opponent tempo, vs. miracles our opponent can easily play around this.Quote:
Originally Posted by decan
If i am playing something like Mentor miracles, a very tempo oriented version, in that case pierce gets a chance to shine imho, in usual miracles this card is bad
They cut Pierce because they were yielding the combo matchup to have better numbers against Delver decks, which are half the format.
I will still be playing REB.
Card is still(!) excellent, even with a (perhaps?) uprise in Liliana, Hymn and random non-blue cards.
It's still good vs Sneak and Show, excellent versus delver and far better vs Shardless than Pierce is.
I'm still not decided between Spell Pierce and REBs MD.
Sure Spell Pierce tend to be dead in the late game but you are already favored in the late game against a very large portion of the field. The most important thing is to survive the first few turn to be able to pull up in the mid to late game and Spell Pierce does a great job at it.
Still I also agree that Spell Pierce seems way worse in the 4 Ponder lists since we will more likely want to spend mana in the early turn to sculpt our hand. I'm playing a 2 Ponder Legend list so the choice is less clear for me.
One final thing:
While we might see more BGx decks, I'm quite certain miracles is the, by far, best deck - Which is where REB is like... A million? times better than Spell Pierce.
Just play spell snare and thank me later :P
And exactly what is wrong with good ol' Counterspell?
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
yeah, Miracle now has never been this strong.
Against Jund and Bug, you just lure out a Decay on Balance, then Surgical Extraction for free and you're almost there.
If he counters it? no one cares, because Snapmage lets you play it again for free.
Oh yes 4 Terminus also and apart from Tarmogoyf and some random 1x things everything in the format dies to Pyroclasm which is in our colors anyway..
They will ban Top imho.. that or Balance
I wish they would just unban things instead of banning things. I also don't think Miracles is "never been this strong". Deck always been good, I think Mentor helps it a lot post board now because people have to keep in bad cards like Bolt/STP to respect it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Oh god, bringing in Surgical against Shardless.
You can just pass turn holding up a :u: like you should be doing in G1, anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka1333
Just take a look at who it was that posted this nonsensical piece of advice and all should be clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by presquepartout
Opening up with ponder is such a meh play now, missing dig already.Quote:
You can just pass turn holding up a like you should be doing in G1, anyway.
If i don't have top in starting hand i guess that vs. An unkown deck i will always start with t1 ponder... why would this be a "meh play"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean
let me suggest cutting Ponder from your list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean
4 Ponder miracles put up better results PRE-DIG era.
Well, its not bad and absolutely necessary if you need do dig for lands but when dtt was legal the feeling was just great. Ponder was much better in the deck. Actually so far in my testing i was doing way better with dig than now, dont know if its issues with the list or if i have to tune my playing. In any case i think people underrate how good miracles actually was with 3 digs and 2 blasts main + 3 snapcasters.
By the way, with sneak we still lose if they draw boseiju, dont know if i should go with 2 priests in the side. I just hate the feeling man.
Oh, how many lands do you 4ponder folks play? 20 or 21?
i play 21, wastelands are returning in the metagame now imhoQuote:
Originally Posted by Ocean
Sneak and Show doesn't tend to play Boseiju. The mana is already pretty terrible, so unless they get greedy and port it from Omni builds I don't think it's anything to worry about.
As Gros says, even with 4 Ponder, 21 lands seems correct given the expected 'return' of things like Canadian Thresh etc. Another reason for Sneak and Show not to play Boseiju, btw.
Ponder is still a great card in the deck, I wouldn't consider cutting it. Whilst a reactive deck, Miracles' gameplan is actually quite linear. Survive the early turns, get a countertop lock on board and win with anything. Of course this isn't always what happens, but it's a goal to aim for, and Ponder helps that. On topic, I can't say I can agree with the argument of tension vs Pierce vs Ponder. Just don't play the Ponder? It's fine saving them for later turns. Especially on the play G1, you have no idea what you're looking for.
Do u think there is a possibility to include the new baby Jace in Miracles right now?
some friends of mine tested that with mixed results but i think is better in stoneblade, we don't have cards to cut for him and i don't see the real reasons why we want itQuote:
Originally Posted by Serch
Not when your real goal is to resolve JtMSQuote:
Originally Posted by Serch
Obviously. However, in G1s on the play, if Spell Pierce was anywhere in my opener, I would always pass turn holding up :u: even if I could t1 Top. That is, unless I had a FoW that I could pitch the Pierce to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
It's all situational but more often than not I hold up Pierce.
T1 on the play, I am jamming Top 100% of the time against a blind opponent.
edit: I would have to have a very high prior of my opponent playing a deck like Belcher/Oops/etc. for me to hold up Pierce v. playing Top or Ponder.
Imho the most rilevant questions about Miracle in this moment are:
- Pyroblast maindeck yes or not
- Karakas maindeck yes or not
- Rest in Peace or Surgical Extraction in sideboard
My personal thoughts:
- the black will come back, with Liliana - Vendilion Clique is a good response for Liliana (and Pithing Needle too)
- Many Omnitell players leave the deck for Sneak and Show - Containment Priestand Pithing Needle are good response
- Shardless BUG is a very consistent deck in this "new" meta and is a bad matchup for Miracle: Entreat, Mentor and Vendilion help us (and Snap, obv)
- Chalice of the Void (broken card imho) grow in number of deck
baby Jace was fine because of its low cost and possibility to recycle DTT for free.
DTT is now banned what do you want to recycle for free at Sorcery speed? Entreat/Terminus?
Before TC/DTT ban:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
- Always 1 Karakas
- Always 1 RiP or more
After TC/DTT ban:
- Always 1 Karakas
- Always 1 RiP or more
I know Schonegger dimisses Karakas; however, even when I run Ponders in the DTT/TC time period, there's very little down side by MD one Karakas with all the plus sides.
I know you can catch most creature stuff using Containment Priest/Cage, I actually ran one Priest back in the TC days, but I have never remove RiP from 75. RiP is similar to Blood Moon in that it's such high impact SB card; RiP's never dead, even if u might not want to cast it when u have it in ur hand, it'll become useful just by holding it.
1) I think the problem of Karakas is that 1 Karakas and 2 plains are too many non blue lands (for example is bad if we want to play counterbalance fast). Do you think is possible to play 1 plains and 1 karakas? I think quite risky for wastelands.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
2) Why not relic of progenitus? I like that card cause no card disadvantage!
The rule of thumb here is to have in the deck enough basic lands to cast all of your spells, so if we have Entreat the Angals or CJ we need that second plains, imho, in other case we don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by urgg
Regarding tha mana base with colour requirements is usuaaly base myselk on this frank Karsten article on Channelfireball for other formats, so i think this can work well for Legacy Miracles toohttp://www.channelfireball.com/artic...t-your-spells/
From what we see on the table we see we need 18 blue sources to get UU in turn 2, so i would play something like: 9 fetches +4 Island +5 Dual lands, that makes 18 sources
adding 8 cantrips we easily get to 20, but the real question is: do we really want to cast ponder t1 to find a blue source for casting CB t2? well, it depends...
IMHO that could be a little risky but worth it if you play in a meta where karakas shines and you still want to play 4 ponder decklists, or play some sorta of legend rule where you don't need double plains.
Regarding relic of progenitus, that card was played in the early days of miracles, but we now get to play with RIP which is usually better, the difference is that you want to cast Relic also in the beginning of the game, but is usually not enough of a hoser to beat dredge singlehandedly, is better vs. "light graveyard strategies" i guess.
Rip instead want to be cast when it "exiles something important" so if it gets decayed you usually gain more than 1 card of advantage out of it, it is better vs. " Hard graveyard strategies". Earlier when people played DTT someone tested Relic to try to leave cards in his own grave for Dtt, but for me that never worked out really well, Rip simply get the Job done and don't hurt us too much now that we have no more DTTs
Surprised no one has posted a link to the Ovino results. Here they are: http://www.metagame.it/liste-mazzi-l...ain-event.html
Two Miracle lists in the Top 8, both taking 1st and second. First is the new Cadei list and second is old Cadei list from a year ago with some tweaks.
Took first today at local event with the list I posted a few pages back. Replaced my md dig with a councils judgement. Will post my deck list and mini report tomorrow. Mentor is still amazing main deck and will not got back to classic miracles. I've had the most success with this build. Still feels very strong.
Cadei's pretty famous. It appears that his winner list has centered around Mentor and just gave up the combo MU game 1. This is one approach I guess, but recently there're a lot, A LOT of SDT hate coming from Shardless and Grixis. This is further confirmed at SCG Indi. For example, 2 Null rods here http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=92447Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90
When you cannot go wild with Mentor + SDTs in the SB games, or just cannot abuse SDT period, it can become tough.
Here's another interesting list from SCG Indi, http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=92466 This is interesting in that my version runs the exact 58. I would -1 MD Venser +1 MD Ponder.
That was my list from Scg indy. I did not miss mentor as there was a lot of hate for top. Baneslayer pulled a ton of overtime with the two blood moons.
That's why it is important to have several different WC able to win from different angles.
Vendilion + Karakas (which is still my favourite)
Mentor + Top is reliable and provide chump blockers
Angels leaves an empty board for too long to be the best but hey, it alt wins..
Opponents will surely go for your Top and Balance. we have to play Angels and cantrips to have Wcons anyway..
Without Jace maybe Supreme Verdict 1x MD can find its place around..
what matchups were the blood moons most useful for? and for Baneslayer Angel?Quote:
Originally Posted by raistlinim
Blood moon came in against lands, shardless, and infect. Baneslayer came in against shardless, death and taxes (with the moat), and rug delver.