Also, Mindbreak Trap for both, though it won't be as good versus a Sneak Attack version of SnT, but is quite fun versus the Omniscience one.
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Also, Mindbreak Trap for both, though it won't be as good versus a Sneak Attack version of SnT, but is quite fun versus the Omniscience one.
You should have a reasonable matchup vs. OmniTell anyway. They're a half step slower and that's generally all you need. Sneak and Show, I consider unfavorable, OmniTell I consider around 50/50 both pre and post board.Quote:
Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos
I would consider the OmniTell matchup much worse. Around 30-70 or so since they can have nut hands with T2 Show and Tell into Omniscience into Emrakul which is auto win unless you have some kind of instant to get rid of Emrakul hich we don't have in Zoo. Same goes for the Sneak Attack versions. Those combos are the Nemesis of every kind of Zoo. Personally, I have 3 REB and 2 Oblivion Ring in the board only to fight Sneak and Tell. Omnitell is almost always a lost match in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey
With respect, I am of the view that REB is a faster and more efficient means of negating Show and Tell than Oblivion Ring in the context of a Zoo build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
REB is counterable and requires you to leave red mana open.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonic_Attorney
O-Ring neuters 2/3's of what they can drop (Emrakul, Omniscience) and mostly neuters Griselbrand (even if they draw cards off of it, being Zoo, you have a pretty good shot at just killing them on your return swing).
O-Ring is 3 CC!! Enough said!Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
ps. Like O-Ring isn't counter-able!
If you drop O-Ring into Show 'n Tell he is not counter-able, and thats the reasoning.
Instant-kill for Emrakul and Griselbrand would be Tariff, did that a few times, worked quite well.
Tariff is a sorcery speed.. its useless vs Sneak or Omni->Emrakul.
Let them resolve Show and Tell and you play Oblivion Ring for free. You just need it in hand, bro. Not sure how 'free' isn't better than :r:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonic_Attorney
Besides it's not like Show and Tell decks play Force of Will or anything...oh wait, yes they do. Balls!
Oblivion Ring is also fantastic at several other jobs, being flexible and all that:
1) dealing with PW's, blue or not
2) robbing Pernicious Deed so you don't lose your dudes
3) taking care of Leyline of Sanctity, a popular sideboard choice in many decks
4) increasing your Goyf/fatty removal so you can break standoffs
5) Dealing with Chalice of the Void
6) It's outside of reliable CounterTop range (have fun trying to counter a spell with REB when they have the lock assembled)
That's a few. But really, Oblivion Ring is just too narrow to warrent use in zoo (sarcasm.)
Gaddock Teeg fucks both Omni and Sneak Attack. Like a boss.Quote:
Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos
5/384 Japan
Creatures [23]
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Loxodon Smiter
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Wild Nacatl
Instants [8]
4 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sorceries [2]
2 Green Sun's Zenith
Enchantments [2]
2 Sylvan Library
Artifacts [2]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands [23]
1 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Choke
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Life from the Loam
Nut draws are called nut draws for a reason. So they've got blue land, tomb, SnT and Omniscience in their opening. And they're on the play, where you can't reasonably be holding up REB (since it's your T1).Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin
To be fair, the listing I've actually played vs. OmniTell (it not being high on my testing priority) had blue as well for Delver/Brainstorm/Ponder, so I had REB and Pierce out of board. However, I did not have O-Ring, so I think that's probably a wash or even a plus in favor of regular Zoo. O-Ring is a pretty good answer to a resolved SnT. But I'm 2-0 on it in tournaments and 4-1 in games. That's once at an SCG and once at a large Legacy side D2 of GP Denver, not like local results or anything.
In other news, that Punishing Zoo list looks terrible. Singleton Mirran Crusader. No way to tutor for it (not GSZable). No more in board. Just a random Crusader, tooling around. I don't think I need to comment on the Elesh Norn. Two Tarmogoyfs and no Scavenging Ooze. If you're going to play big Zoo, there's no reason not to run Ooze over 'goyf. Either this guy paid off all his opponents or this was at the Japanese Special Olympics.
Yeah, for the reasons others have stated, those points you listed are moot in the Show & Tell matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonic_Attorney
Yeah I was like :really: when I saw that and kept looking at the list looking for some super secret tech I was missing...Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey
Actually, they are not!Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
To the contrary, the speed that Show and Tell now plays at makes it very relevant and consequential; especially when spell pierce and daze are factored in which culminates in making this underlying factor even more paramount in assessing sideboard tech in this pivotal match up.
They have 8 monsters with 8+ cantrips and you have, maybe 2 o-rings in the board! You will not have it in hand consistently enough to flip with Show and Tell not to mention they have a voluminous amount of answers for o-ring.
Unless anyone objects, I would like to take on making an updated Primer for Zoo, I played it for a while so I have actual experience with it, and if it helps I have recently compiled a primer for High Tide & Belcher that at the risk of promoting myself, I think looks rather well ^.^
Anyhow, I'll edit this post accordingly as I go along
-edit- 1:00 am Pacific time, Thread blueprint started.
-edit- 5:30 am Pacific time, links to almost 93 separate top 16 decklists since 2009 completed, though only 11 occurring in the past 15 months. (Interestingly enough, the "peak" of Zoo, was actually during the Reign of Mental Misstep, which helped knock combo decks back at that time.) Now working on card choices.
-edit 10:30 am Pacific time, Still sorting through the multiple decklists, making notes based on pre-during-post Mental Misstep to show trends.
-edit- Noon Pacific time, to be continued tomorrow, stuff done: playing zoo, big/fast. 93 separate top 16 decklists links 2009-2013, pre/during/post Mental Misstep notes, card choices, maindeck & sideboard - working on: explanation of cards in deck- stuff remaining: Price guide, Links, & Match ups.
-edit- 7:45 pm Pacific time, back on it again, adding images to blueprint & continuing with card choice explanations.
-edit- 11:45 pm Pacific time, now working on Price Guide for more commonly ran cards since 2012.
-edit- 12:45 am Pacific time, Price Guide completed, only 2 "to do's" left, -Awesome Links- & -Match ups-
-edit- 2:00 am Pacific time, FOOD BREAK Still pushing for articles, top 8 tournament reports, etc for 2012-13 in relation to zoo, found tons of articles from 2010-11 during height of Zoo.
-edit- http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...rimer-Deck-Zoo
Yeah, an opening post that refers to including Watchwolf, Isamaru, and Goblin Legionnaire as elements of a "new R/G/W Zoo deck" is not one that I would read anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by feline
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...rimer-Deck-Zoo Updated Zoo Primer/Deck here for your fancy. ^.^
So adjust: play 4x Oblivion Ring, or some mix of O-Ring/Ethersworn Canonist/Ensnaring Bridge. If you are losing to a bad matchup, and you can do something to fix it, then you deserve to lose if you don't adjust.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonic_Attorney
Legacy's never going to be the same.
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Signal Pest
4 Frogmite
3 Vault Skirge
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Cranial Plating
4 Galvanic Blast
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Dispatch
3 Springleaf Drum
3 Mox Opal
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
2 Great Furnace
2 Tree of Tales
1 Ancient Den
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
Don't you love it when your Goyf's huge because your opponent bins an artifact?
Can you please call this list "Beast Wars: Transformers in Disguise"?Quote:
Originally Posted by thefringthing