4 Card Blind

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Originally Posted by PJim

4. PJim: Sand Silos, Leyline of Sanctity, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Alrund's Epiphany
9. H: Tropical Island, Lotus Petal, Force Spike, Crashing Footfalls / 6-0, A single 4/4 isn't fast enough.

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H wins the race due to Lotus Petal.

You can play Alrund's Epiphany on Turn 9 (with Foretell it's slower). Turn 10 to play around Force Spike.
H gets 2 Rhinos every turn starting turn 5 and can pay for 1 with Tropical.

T6 - Attack for 4 [PJ=16]
T7 - Attack for 4 [PJ=12]
T8 - Attack for 4 [PJ=8]
T9 - Pay 2 upkeeps, using Lotus Petal. Attack for 8 [PJ=0]

Edit: H races OTP.

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Originally Posted by maxx!

I really struggled with this round. I expected Sphere of Resistance to make another appearance (and Meddling Mage), so it's interesting that they didn't. I wanted to play something that didn't auto-lose to FoN or Leyline of Sanctity. I missed the Electrodominance strat with Crashing Footfalls (or rather, I missed that Electro can play around FoN), so I felt like I needed multiple threats. I was on Kuldotha Rebirth for a long time, but got scared of Tabernacle at the last minute.

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I too was playing around cards like Sphere (storage land), Meddling Mage (2 win conditions), Tabernacle (storage land), and Leyline (tokens vs direct damage). I also missed how easy it was to play instant-sorceries via Electrodominance or madness so I thought the FoN-dodging decks would be fair vertical growth creatures and picked Talrand's Invocation to race stuff like Hangarback Walker or 2x Steel Overseer. Turns out no one played fair creatures and most people found a way to abuse the round rule.

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Originally Posted by dte

So the control version of footfalls would have done slightly better, but not much difference. But I would have played it if I had realized about the Epic and storm combination!

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I keep forgetting Footfalls exists. My control version + 1 drop spell had Chain Lightning instead. Rhinos are much better.

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Originally Posted by FTW

H wins the race due to Lotus Petal.

You can play Alrund's Epiphany on Turn 9 (with Foretell it's slower). Turn 10 to play around Force Spike.
H gets 2 Rhinos every turn starting turn 5 and can pay for 1 with Tropical.

T6 - Attack for 4 [PJ=16]
T7 - Attack for 4 [PJ=12]
T8 - Attack for 4 [PJ=8]
T9 - Pay 2 upkeeps, using Lotus Petal. Attack for 8 [PJ=0]

When you go first, you could play T9 Alrund's Epiphany but would lose to Force Spike cast by Lotus Petal. If you keep Silos tapped to charge 1 more turn, then H has Lotus Petal to pay the 2nd Tabernacle upkeep and swing for the win.

So H just barely races both OTP and OTD.



I too was playing around cards like Sphere (storage land), Meddling Mage (2 win conditions), Tabernacle (storage land), and Leyline (tokens vs direct damage). I also missed how easy it was to play instant-sorceries via Electrodominance or madness so I thought the FoN-dodging decks would be fair vertical growth creatures and picked Talrand's Invocation to race stuff like Hangarback Walker or 2x Steel Overseer. Turns out no one played fair creatures and most people found a way to abuse the round rule.

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I hadn't factored in the Petal for an extra 4 damage, but I don't have to play around Force Spike once he's gone Epic, so I think first player wins the race.

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Originally Posted by PJim

I hadn't factored in the Petal for an extra 4 damage, but I don't have to play around Force Spike once he's gone Epic, so I think first player wins the race.

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Right, so you both have T9 clocks and trade 3-3

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

The question is whether or not activating Factory/Cove are relevant game actions. (Probably not, but I am not a judge.)

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Well, you get to declare a number of times that you want to activate each of them, but then after that I think something else has to happen. I think it's the same if you have, say, Spike Feeder and Archangel of Thune against Energy Field and Blighted Agent. Loop as much as you want, then do something else. The question is whether the fact that your loop spans many turns lets you keep doing it. I don't think it does, but this is one of the trickier parts of the rules.

By contrast, the situation below involves both players making choices, although repeated, so I do think that's a draw.

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

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Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "The Epic Storm!"

2. dte: Simian Spirit guide, Simian Spirit guide, electrodominance, crashing footfalls
Goblin stare 2-2

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If dte stares you eventually go wide enough to one-shot him. Technically the rhinos have to charge to their deaths in a cloud of goblins every turn for eternity...

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Originally Posted by silkster

Well, you get to declare a number of times that you want to activate each of them, but then after that I think something else has to happen. I think it's the same if you have, say, Spike Feeder and Archangel of Thune against Energy Field and Blighted Agent. Loop as much as you want, then do something else. The question is whether the fact that your loop spans many turns lets you keep doing it. I don't think it does, but this is one of the trickier parts of the rules.

By contrast, the situation below involves both players making choices, although repeated, so I do think that's a draw.

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It is also relevant if the copies are compulsory (they are as far as I can tell) so that leaves the targeting restriction, which is probably where the loop rules get me as I would be the active player so I eventually have to give you an extra turn to kill me. (If I had played Capture of Jingzhou instead, then it would be a draw.)

Tournament Rules are ironically relevant here, even though there likely has been no sanctioned game of Card Blind, so here's the section on loops:

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4.4 Loops

A loop is a form of tournament shortcut that involves detailing a sequence of actions to be repeated and then
performing a number of iterations of that sequence. The loop actions must be identical in each iteration and
cannot include conditional actions ("If this, then that".)

If no players are involved in maintaining the loop, each player in turn order chooses a number of iterations to
perform before they will take an action to break the loop or that they wish to take no action. If all players choose
to take no action, the game is a draw. Otherwise, the game advances through the lowest number of iterations
chosen and the player who chose that number takes an action to break the loop.

If one player is involved in maintaining the loop, they choose a number of iterations. The other players, in turn
order, agree to that number or announce a lower number after which they intend to intervene. The game advances
through the lowest number of iterations chosen and the player who chose that number receives priority.
If two or more players are involved in maintaining a loop within a turn, each player in turn order chooses a
number of iterations to perform. The game advances through the lowest number of iterations chosen and the
player who chose that number receives priority.

Loops may span multiple turns if a game state is not meaningfully changing. Note that drawing cards other than
the ones being used to sustain the loop is a meaningful change. If two or more players are involved in maintaining
a loop across turns, each player chooses a number of iterations to perform, or announces their intent to continue
indefinitely. If all players choose to continue indefinitely, the game is a draw. Otherwise, the game advances
through the lowest number of iterations chosen and the player who chose that number receives priority at the
point they stop taking an action to sustain the loop.

A player intervening during a loop may specify that one iteration of the loop is only partly performed in order to
be able to take action at the appropriate point. If they do, the final iteration is only performed up to the chosen
point.

Non-deterministic loops (loops that rely on decision trees, probability or mathematical convergence) may not be
shortcut. A player attempting to execute a nondeterministic loop must stop if at any point during the process a
previous game state (or one identical in all relevant ways) is reached again. This happens most often in loops that
involve shuffling a library.

Some loops are sustained by choices rather than actions. In these cases, the rules above may be applied, with the
player making a different choice rather than ceasing to take an action. The game moves to the point where the
player makes that choice. If the choice involves hidden information, a judge may be needed to determine whether
any choice is available that will not continue the loop.

The judge is the final arbiter of what constitutes a loop. A player may not 'opt-out' of shortcutting a loop, nor may
they make irrelevant changes between iterations in an attempt to make it appear as though there is no loop. Once a
loop has been shortcut, it may not be restarted until the game has changed in a relevant way. Proposing loops as
an effort to use up time on the clock is Stalling.

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Yeah, it looks like you needed Temporal Manipulation or to Capter Jingzhou. The paragraph about meaningful changes outlines what is and isn't allowed to be shortcut. Since the game state is only changing in number of tokens and counters and it's all predictable, you would be allowed to declare it as a loop, which means you would be forced to declare it as a loop, and then you'd be forced to declare the number of times you would like to loop (while I decline to take any action before the end of that loop), and then you would have to take a different action. Neat! I had some ideas that these were the rules, and I've read large sections of the comprehensive rules, but I've never looked into the tournament rules official document.

I'd never heard of Empty City Ruse, but I thought there was some Portal/Starter sorcery version of Festival or Moment of Silence. I also found False Peace, and I put the Ruse into my list instead of the Peace because Peace could be Misdirected back at me, even if the chances of that are vanishingly small. This conversation made me wonder if False Peace couldn't draw the game, but I think that might fall under both players maintaining a loop across turns.

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If two or more players are involved in maintaining
a loop across turns, each player chooses a number of iterations to perform, or announces their intent to continue
indefinitely. If all players choose to continue indefinitely, the game is a draw.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

1. Asthereal (TO): Great Furnace, Kuldotha Rebirth, Pyrokinesis, Chancellor of the Forge LL
2. dte: Simian Spirit guide, Simian Spirit guide, electrodominance, crashing footfalls LL
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Empty the Warrens LL
4. PJim: Sand Silos, Leyline of Sanctity, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Alrund's Epiphany LL, I thought this pretty much what I planned for, but t1/t2 tabernacle stops me.
5. jhhdk: Leyline of Abundance, Dryad Arbor, Priest of Titania, Elvish Promenade <-- ME!
6. Serguei: Mountain, Nivmagus Elemental, Chain Lightning, Leyline of Sanctity LL
7. Wrath of Pie: Saprazzan Cove, Urza's Factory, Time Warp, Force of Negation LL
8. alphastryk: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Torment of Hailfire LL
9. H: Tropical Island, Lotus Petal, Force Spike, Crashing Footfalls LL
10. Tylert: Volcanic island, Chain lightning, Force of negation, Sea's claim LL
11. Reeplcheep: Swamp , Simian Spirit-Guide, Sonic Seizure , Alms of the Vein LL
12. maxx!: Blackcleave Cliffs, Chancellor of the Forge, Goblin Grenade, Vicious Rumors LL
13. silkster: Island, Inkmoth Nexus, Force of Negation, Energy Field LL
14. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Negation, Misthollow Griffin, Talrand's Invocation LL

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Impressive, I made a Epic Canadian Backbuild. Talk about bringing a pillow to a gun fight.

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Originally Posted by dte

2. dte: Simian Spirit guide, Simian Spirit guide, electrodominance, crashing footfalls
I can cast electro/footfalls at my first opponent's upkeep, targeting myself, to get around leyline and FoN.

3. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Empty the Warrens
0-6. 8 tokens T1, then 2 per turn would be too slow. But 8 gobs per turn means you get as much power as me, but across several bodies.

[...]
60


So the control version of footfalls would have done slightly better, but not much difference. But I would have played it if I had realized about the Epic and storm combination!
I think this round was fun, and there were plenty of different strategies, much more than usual. Actually there isn't even 2 decks that are on the same, so 14 different approaches!

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I think you draw against Smashmaster. You always get to attack first so you'll trade 2 4/4s for 8 1/1s every turn.

Nice, 60 points. I really thought there would be more non-Force control decks that would prey on this. Great call!

What's the control version of Footfalls? The suspend version with Force Spike is not doing better.

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Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster

3. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Empty the Warrens
That's me, finally smashing with Goblins!

9. H: Tropical Island, Lotus Petal, Force Spike, Crashing Footfalls
Goblin smash, then Force 4-1

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I think this one is 3-3 cause H can suspend Footfalls while holding up mana for Force Spike.

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Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster

10. Tylert: Volcanic island, Chain lightning, Force of negation, Sea's claim
You use the Force 2-2

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DD?

I force dark ritual and chain lightning you to death. Isn't that LL for you?

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

I went through a few iterations (and illegal deck submissions, huge thanks to Asthereal for responding quickly to point those out) , but ultimately decided I was OK losing to FoN but not to Leyline of Sanctity, and once I understood how we were handling Epic for x spells, Torment of Hailfire seemed like it would grind out a lot of the other decks using the round rules, while winning on my turn 3. In retrospect, I am not great vs fast tokens (which I assumed would be played less due to Tabernacle). Lets see how it goes

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I do not get why X should be copied here.

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Originally Posted by silkster

I think you draw against Smashmaster. You always get to attack first so you'll trade 2 4/4s for 8 1/1s every turn.

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As much as I would prefer to agree with Gob and you on this, I don't: gob can let 4 rhinos through, so (s)he can trade for as long as (s)he wants, then decide to let 2 rhinos go through (g12), attack with 8 gobs (d14, 4 rhinos, 14 gobs), I attack with 4 rhinos, 2 go through, 2 are chump by a single gob (g4, 6 rhinos, 12 gobs), attack for 10 (d4, 18 gobs, 6 rhinos), 6 rhinos are chump by 6 gobs, and I die next turn.

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Originally Posted by silkster

What's the control version of Footfalls? The suspend version with Force Spike is not doing better.

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Force of Negation / Disrupting shoal was the best for me. Trop/FoN/Daze was great against fair, but loses/draw to FoN.

Quick, maybe wrong, assessment with FoN/Shoal gives 23W 1D 4L
1. Asthereal (TO): Great Furnace, Kuldotha Rebirth, Pyrokinesis, Chancellor of the Forge WW
2. dte: Simian Spirit guide, Simian Spirit guide, electrodominance, crashing footfalls WW
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Empty the Warrens WW
4. PJim: Sand Silos, Leyline of Sanctity, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Alrund's Epiphany WD
5. jhhdk: Leyline of Abundance, Dryad Arbor, Priest of Titania, Elvish Promenade WW
6. Serguei: Mountain, Nivmagus Elemental, Chain Lightning, Leyline of Sanctity WW
7. Wrath of Pie: Saprazzan Cove, Urza's Factory, Time Warp, Force of Negation LL
8. alphastryk: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Torment of Hailfire WW
9. H: Tropical Island, Lotus Petal, Force Spike, Crashing Footfalls WW
10. Tylert: Volcanic island, Chain lightning, Force of negation, Sea's claim WW
11. Reeplcheep: Swamp , Simian Spirit-Guide, Sonic Seizure , Alms of the Vein WW
12. maxx!: Blackcleave Cliffs, Chancellor of the Forge, Goblin Grenade, Vicious Rumors WW
13. silkster: Island, Inkmoth Nexus, Force of Negation, Energy Field LL
14. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Negation, Misthollow Griffin, Talrand's Invocation WW


Otherwise, we tried yesterday your mindmaster version and it was a blast. We just used random boosters (fate reforged was terrible because of manifest, but everything else was good), not drafting, and putting card face-down as rainbow lands. Great way to play quick games!
If you (or others) have other funny ways to play, I am all ears (or rather eyes). Our favourite is to play a pile of cards (designed for it or not, full set collections work great but any random pile of cards work as common library, and put cards face down as rainbow lands. We play clockwise first kill when multiplayers, it's a lot of fun.

Otherwise otherwise (have to enrich my English vocabulary on this one, but I have a similar trouble in my native language), I have serious concerns about next round (concise) diversity around 1-2 cards. Same procedure as last time with PMing Asthereal?

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Originally Posted by Tylert

DD?

I force dark ritual and chain lightning you to death. Isn't that LL for you?

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Smashmaster just casts nothing. If you try to win with Chain Lightning, the epic part of it doesn't let you cast Force and you lose the race. So neither of you ever does anything.

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Originally Posted by Serguei

I do not get why X should be copied here.

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That's just due to the normal rules for copying spells:

706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on).

(Note that Epic overrides the copying of the target.)

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Originally Posted by PJim

That's just due to the normal rules for copying spells:

706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on).

(Note that Epic overrides the copying of the target.)

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I have not seen the N>B at all for this round. So it is my fault.

Nevertheless I completely agree with you with copying a spell., but the spell is not anymore on the stack when epic triggers, so x would have been 0.

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Originally Posted by Serguei

I have not seen the N>B at all for this round. So it is my fault.

Nevertheless I completely agree with you with copying a spell., but the spell is not anymore on the stack when epic triggers, so x would have been 0.

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I don't think there is much point to debating this after the round has already started, the more appropriate time would have been earlier.

Also memo to dte: the Rhinos have trample.

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Originally Posted by dte

As much as I would prefer to agree with Gob and you on this, I don't: gob can let 4 rhinos through, so (s)he can trade for as long as (s)he wants, then decide to let 2 rhinos go through (g12), attack with 8 gobs (d14, 4 rhinos, 14 gobs), I attack with 4 rhinos, 2 go through, 2 are chump by a single gob (g4, 6 rhinos, 12 gobs), attack for 10 (d4, 18 gobs, 6 rhinos), 6 rhinos are chump by 6 gobs, and I die next turn.

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You both make 8/8 a turn in tokens. Gobbo has more bodies and can go wide, but yours trample. Gobbo can choose to let some damage through and swarm around you, but can only take 19 trample damage as long as you keep attacking every turn so can only attack with 19 power at most. If you ever stop attacking with everything though, then yes, you risk losing.

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Originally Posted by silkster

I think this one is 3-3 cause H can suspend Footfalls while holding up mana for Force Spike.

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4-1 looks right to me.
OTP Force Spike is dodged
OTD H suspends Footfalls while holding up Force Spike. Eventually Footfalls resolves making 2 4/4s, triggering Epic. Then GoblinSmashmaster makes 8 1/1s and H can't cast Force Spike, so it's just like the match vs dte where the tokens crash into each other and draw.

The only reason we can win is we have non-sorcery win conditions so we can attack while holding up Force. H and Tylert can't both play a win condition and hold up Force.

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Originally Posted by Tylert

DD?

I force dark ritual and chain lightning you to death. Isn't that LL for you?

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How do you win though? If you ever cast Chain Lightning, you can no longer use Force, and Empty would race Chain.

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Originally Posted by dte

Quick, maybe wrong, assessment with FoN/Shoal gives 23W 1D 4L
1. Asthereal (TO): Great Furnace, Kuldotha Rebirth, Pyrokinesis, Chancellor of the Forge WW
2. dte: Simian Spirit guide, Simian Spirit guide, electrodominance, crashing footfalls WW
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Empty the Warrens WW
4. PJim: Sand Silos, Leyline of Sanctity, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Alrund's Epiphany WD
5. jhhdk: Leyline of Abundance, Dryad Arbor, Priest of Titania, Elvish Promenade WW
6. Serguei: Mountain, Nivmagus Elemental, Chain Lightning, Leyline of Sanctity WW
7. Wrath of Pie: Saprazzan Cove, Urza's Factory, Time Warp, Force of Negation LL
8. alphastryk: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Torment of Hailfire WW
9. H: Tropical Island, Lotus Petal, Force Spike, Crashing Footfalls WW
10. Tylert: Volcanic island, Chain lightning, Force of negation, Sea's claim WW
11. Reeplcheep: Swamp , Simian Spirit-Guide, Sonic Seizure , Alms of the Vein WW
12. maxx!: Blackcleave Cliffs, Chancellor of the Forge, Goblin Grenade, Vicious Rumors WW
13. silkster: Island, Inkmoth Nexus, Force of Negation, Energy Field LL
14. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Negation, Misthollow Griffin, Talrand's Invocation WW

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Same problem. Can't Force after resolving Footfalls, so this isn't as good as it looks.
DD vs GoblinSmashmaster (Rhinos run into Goblin tokens)
LL vs PJim (suspended Rhinos too slow vs Tabernacle + Epiphany)
DD vs H (Rhinos crash into each other)
LL vs maxx! (Force Rumors, then Grenade races suspended Footfalls)

Edit: DD vs PJim and WW vs maxx! Still, less points than you'd think. Force + sorcery win condition runs into obstacles. Aggro-Rhinos was better.

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Originally Posted by silkster

Yeah, it looks like you needed Temporal Manipulation or to Capter Jingzhou. The paragraph about meaningful changes outlines what is and isn't allowed to be shortcut. Since the game state is only changing in number of tokens and counters and it's all predictable, you would be allowed to declare it as a loop, which means you would be forced to declare it as a loop, and then you'd be forced to declare the number of times you would like to loop (while I decline to take any action before the end of that loop), and then you would have to take a different action. Neat! I had some ideas that these were the rules, and I've read large sections of the comprehensive rules, but I've never looked into the tournament rules official document.

I'd never heard of Empty City Ruse, but I thought there was some Portal/Starter sorcery version of Festival or Moment of Silence. I also found False Peace, and I put the Ruse into my list instead of the Peace because Peace could be Misdirected back at me, even if the chances of that are vanishingly small. This conversation made me wonder if False Peace couldn't draw the game, but I think that might fall under both players maintaining a loop across turns.

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Peace Talks was on my short list at one point but it never seemed good enough. In retrospect, it was probably just fine. (Oracle text means copied spells can't target either) Hard to find a path to victory with it though.

Best I came up with was something like: Remote Farm, City of Traitors, Peace Talks, Copper Tablet

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Originally Posted by Serguei

I do not get why X should be copied here.

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Honestly it seems odd to me as well, but the round rules specified that x was copied on the Epic copies so I went with it.

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

Also memo to dte: the Rhinos have trample.

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I should probably at least the cards I play, particularly when two others disagree with me :/

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Originally Posted by FTW

Same problem. Can't Force after resolving Footfalls, so this isn't as good as it looks.
DD vs GoblinSmashmaster (Rhinos run into Goblin tokens)
LL vs PJim (suspended Rhinos too slow vs Tabernacle + Epiphany)
DD vs H (Rhinos crash into each other)
LL vs maxx! (Force Rumors, then Grenade races suspended Footfalls)

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agree for DD vs Gob and H, but it should also be DD vs PJim (holding counters) and WW vs maxx (let rumor resolves, who cares? it prevent max to play grenade, and counter grenade if played before rumors).

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

Honestly it seems odd to me as well, but the round rules specified that x was copied on the Epic copies so I went with it.

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I was surprised by the X and modes, for me it invalidated collective brutality as a card I had first thought would be sweet. After we are making rules every week, so as soon as Asthereal publishes the post launching the rules, it is the ones (s)he used for his deck and so we should all use the same.

From the Saviors of Kamigawa FAQ:

* Choices made while playing the original epic spell, as well as any
alterations made to that spell, are copied. However, the epic ability
does allow the player to choose a new target as the copy is put onto
the stack.

Choices in the context of copies (per the comprehensive rules I posted above) seem to include X values and modes, so I believe we are following the rules. I can see the argument that X would no longer exist once the spell is off the stack, but neither would any alterations or choices made, so this seems to me the most reasonable interpretation.

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Originally Posted by PJim

From the Saviors of Kamigawa FAQ:

* Choices made while playing the original epic spell, as well as any
alterations made to that spell, are copied. However, the epic ability
does allow the player to choose a new target as the copy is put onto
the stack.

Choices in the context of copies (per the comprehensive rules I posted above) seem to include X values and modes, so I believe we are following the rules. I can see the argument that X would no longer exist once the spell is off the stack, but neither would any alterations or choices made, so this seems to me the most reasonable interpretation.

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Interesting, I suppose we're in uncharted territory really, but that would seem to align with how we did things. Other ways of copying an x spell have an x value on the stack to copy, so its a little strange to think through, and something that likely will never intersect in the real rules.