All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by menace13

Some of the most nonsensical bullshit I've ever heard on this forum. Sorry, but your Brainstorm quotient isn't even used by the DCI on any card nor will it ever be. They look at winning deck lists. Evidenced by every past banning.

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If 100% of the decks in a tournament run Brainstorm, then winning with Brainstorm is as meaningless as it is to win with basic island.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Why? 'True Staple' isn't a ban criteria. It's up there with 'Pillar of the Format', 'Skill Intensive', 'Skill Tester', 'Go play modern'.

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You wouldn't ONLY look at tenure. You would look at several criteria of which tenure would be a part. Not looking at tenure causes knee-jerk reactions like Mental Misstep and potentially now Treasure Cruise too. The toxicity of a card becomes more evident when you use time series analysis. It helps remove guesswork from the equation by giving more statistical rigor / empirical support.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

If 100% of the decks in a tournament run Brainstorm, then winning with Brainstorm is as meaningless as it is to win with basic island.

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So what? That's 100% placing Brainstorm decks, and that's what Wizards cares about.

@Barook: Again, correlation and causation are two different things. Maybe it's because Brainstorm is too good; maybe it's because people just LIKE to play blue in eternal formats. There is no way to tell this with certainty. It's entirely subjective. If WOTC want to ban a card that's as iconic for eternal as Brainstorm, at least they should provide good analysis and support the argumentation with statistical tests, unless WOTC actively WANTS to incite the entire community.

EDIT:

Let's assume for instance that 100% of legacy players play brainstorm
Let's assume that 100% of legacy players do so because they love playing the card (having options is more fun than having no options!)
Let's assume that WOTC will ban Brainstorm.

Is this a net positive for the game/players? No! Why take away something that people like? IF these assumptions largely hold true, than that means that Brainstorm's power is irrelevant to the question whether or not it will get banned because it holds virtual 'immunity' comparable to the cards on the reserved list.

That would mean that discussing Brainstorm as a potential card for banning is the same as discussing whether or not dual lands will be reprinted.

Let's assume for a moment that 10% of the players play mystical tutor
Let's assume for a moment that 100% of those players do so because they love the card
Let's assume that WotC ban Myst.... oh wait.

Players "liking" a card has never been a criteria for banning and never will be. Either Survival, Mystical etc... would never have been banned.
If anything, it's the opposite. When playing against a strat get deemed "unfun" it's more likely to get banned (see: every combo ban ever by WotC). And tbh i'm pretty annoyed to see 4xbrainstorm everymatch, but more than that, i'm annoyed that exist no way to actually fight the strat of mass cheap cantrips because the card deemed to hate such strategies are leap and bounds below them in powerlevel, meaning the format has no meaningful way to shift away from the dominant strat.

In circle
Forever

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Originally Posted by Ellomdian

And guess what? It will likely be won by a deck playing Demonic Tutor. And that's OK.

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Ftfy, and there goes the idea of BS being ok. People will play w/e gets them to the top, but this doesn't mean that those cards are fine and balanced.
Also, it doesn't even mean that they enjoy the game, I for one wasn't at a tournament for months and don't plan to attend one for another months or maybe years, but the mere fact that MtG is a drug is enough for me to dick around Source and/or virtually sleeve virtual Brainstorms while wasting my time with MWS.

Bandwagoning post here, since I can't play Legacy except when I travel to Premier events, my vote for brainstorm is almost entirely in theoretical argument. I haven't really seen any arguments I like about brainstorm getting banned.

While I don't give a damn about brainstorm's nostalgia in the format, I just don't see any argument for banning it. The card is definitely a skill pillar. It's one of the most flexible blue cards in the game, and the way it's played can be a huge factor in a lot of games. It's not degenerate and doesn't hurt the format. I've seen some people play poorly with brainstorm and get punished. The brainstorm lock is real. The people who get the most value out of brainstorm are those who are playing it skillfully, why ban a card that helps skilled players gain a further edge?

Playing around opposing brainstorms is also a skill that a lot of people playing fair blue decks will often take into consideration. Knowing when to counter their brainstorms to be able to answer it. Or force a play where they will use brainstorm to hide their key cards in situations like thoughtseize or v. clique plays, and you can capitalize on it with a counter to 2for1. It's also an information tool. If an opponent brainstorms at instant speed it can often mean that they are trying to protect a card in hand, or desperately seek for an answer.

It can set up plays as well, or be a nice end of turn play if you have a fetch land uncracked in play and basically recall your opponent. Of course also standard things like using it with any shuffle effect to filter your hand is an important tool.

In general I still feel there's too much reason for Legacy to keep brainstorm around. The reason it's played in such high numbers is because it's one of the most versatile cards in the format while also being very balanced for its cost. 100% of decks in a top8 might include a set of brainstorms, and that's fine because it's not the brainstorm that's getting them there in the first place.

Honestly all those arguments could conceivably be made for a number of cards sitting on the banned list.

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Originally Posted by Barook

So what? That's 100% placing Brainstorm decks, and that's what Wizards cares about.

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If that was an actual argument, Wizards would have banned Fetchlands in all formats and Tarmogoyf in Modern ... oh! .... and Mystical Tutor would be still Legacy legal!

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Originally Posted by DTC

The card is definitely a skill pillar. It's one of the most flexible blue cards in the game, and the way it's played can be a huge factor in a lot of games.

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The returns to skill on Brainstorm are vastly overstated by its proponents. While Brainstorm is an extremely versatile card, what to do with it is usually clear for the overwhelming majority of hand/game states. Demonic Tutor is a pretty versatile card too...you can grab any card in your deck! But in most cases the card to pluck from the pile is patently obvious.

Plus, it's silly to discuss the "skill levels" of cards, anyway. Cards aren't hard to play, decks and formats are. And looking at things from this level, Brainstorm tends to remove just as much, if not (in all likelihood) more "skill points" out of the format as it brings in. Consider:

-In a format without Brainstorm, deck construction becomes a much more interesting affair. Shells that rely upon cantrips don't have one clear best choice in Brainstorm, and have tougher decisions to make. Preordain versus Ponder is going to be a tough decision in many 75s, which often may depend on the meta. Decks that need a lot of cantrips are forced to dig deep into the back catalogue; oldies like Portent and Predict could become relevant, or a sly player's super secret tech. Currently, Brainstorm simply muscles them ot of the format...it's simply [i]so[/] much better than it's "peers".

Not to mention a lot of the more greedy manabases become untenable, forcing those playing archetypes like U/x/y Tempo to make the choice between more colors or more consistency.

-Discard actually becomes a serious factor in the metagame, forcing adaptation around it. Not only will players actually have to learn how to play around discard (in a ways that don't involve tapping an Island and putting two cards on top of their deck), but it makes deckbuilding, sideboarding, and metagaming more interesting. Players will be forced to consider anti-discard measures rather than having them as an auto-4-of in every deck with Blue.

-The ability to evaluate opening hands and mulligan becomes a much more important skill. Brainstorm allows for stupid keeps, as it can essentially swap out 3 cards in hand, making the art of the mulligan a less necessary discipline to train in.


All in all, Brainstorm's removal would make for a much more skill-intensive Legacy format than the current one, testing player's deckbuilding, metagaming, and play skills more than the one where 75% of the field jams 4x Swiss Army Spell into their lists without question. This argument is also a lot more concrete than one that maintains that because Brainstorm can do a lot of things, there are necessarily difficult decisions in a majority of situations; the stance adopted by many Brainstorm proponents.

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Originally Posted by Jamaican Zombie Legend

stuff.

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+1

I can agree with pretty much everything you said. The only thing you missed is that part of the appeal of an eternal format is power level. Why play vintage when you can't play with SOLOMOXEN? Why play legacy when you can't play with Brainstorm? Modern offers a less competitive environment where there's a lot of room for innovation given the fact that reprints are so abundant in the last few years (namely, 10x rav duals 10x fetch)

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Originally Posted by Jamaican Zombie Legend

The returns to skill on Brainstorm are vastly overstated by its proponents. While Brainstorm is an extremely versatile card, what to do with it is usually clear for the overwhelming majority of hand/game states. Demonic Tutor is a pretty versatile card too...you can grab any card in your deck! But in most cases the card to pluck from the pile is patently obvious.

Plus, it's silly to discuss the "skill levels" of cards, anyway. Cards aren't hard to play, decks and formats are. And looking at things from this level, Brainstorm tends to remove just as much, if not (in all likelihood) more "skill points" out of the format as it brings in. Consider:

-In a format without Brainstorm, deck construction becomes a much more interesting affair. Shells that rely upon cantrips don't have one clear best choice in Brainstorm, and have tougher decisions to make. Preordain versus Ponder is going to be a tough decision in many 75s, which often may depend on the meta. Decks that need a lot of cantrips are forced to dig deep into the back catalogue; oldies like Portent and Predict could become relevant, or a sly player's super secret tech. Currently, Brainstorm simply muscles them ot of the format...it's simply [i]so[/] much better than it's "peers".

Not to mention a lot of the more greedy manabases become untenable, forcing those playing archetypes like U/x/y Tempo to make the choice between more colors or more consistency.

-Discard actually becomes a serious factor in the metagame, forcing adaptation around it. Not only will players actually have to learn how to play around discard (in a ways that don't involve tapping an Island and putting two cards on top of their deck), but it makes deckbuilding, sideboarding, and metagaming more interesting. Players will be forced to consider anti-discard measures rather than having them as an auto-4-of in every deck with Blue.

-The ability to evaluate opening hands and mulligan becomes a much more important skill. Brainstorm allows for stupid keeps, as it can essentially swap out 3 cards in hand, making the art of the mulligan a less necessary discipline to train in.


All in all, Brainstorm's removal would make for a much more skill-intensive Legacy format than the current one, testing player's deckbuilding, metagaming, and play skills more than the one where 75% of the field jams 4x Swiss Army Spell into their lists without question. This argument is also a lot more concrete than one that maintains that because Brainstorm can do a lot of things, there are necessarily difficult decisions in a majority of situations; the stance adopted by many Brainstorm proponents.

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Hilarious. People will just run Preordain AND Ponder (AND Gitaxian Probe) for the same number of card selection and digging like they did with Brainstorm to support their Delvers! Look at fucking Modern which has a 44% penetration of UR Delver atm just because how stupid Delver + TC is with plenty of Cantrips to chain together. The only thing you won't see anymore are greedy, conditional cards because you can't shuffle them away on demand. There the deckbuilding will be a factor, but other than that, we already know that Delver just works perfect without Brainstorm to setup the flip.

It really ain't so hard to beat delver of secrets; at least in UR Delver (which uses cruise). Sudden Shock, Abrupt Decay or Volcanic Fallout are ways to beat it. Once you kill their clock, you just make land drops until all their tempo counters become irrelevant. If Delver decks are the problem here, people should just start playing with uncounterable removal. Afraid of Young Pyromancer tokens? Sudden Shock + Volcanic Fallout. Afraid of Monastery Swiftspear? Sudden Shock when you have priority.

A deck running Spell Pierce, Force of Will, and a bunch of cantrips with super fragile threats becomes a pile when you can remove the creatures without a way to interact with you.

rug delver is much harder because of goyf and mongoose, but they dont run TC.


If 44% of the field is UR Delver, then just board in 15 hate cards. You'll have a 44% chance of getting a bye every round.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

It really ain't so hard to beat delver of secrets; at least in UR Delver (which uses cruise). Sudden Shock, Abrupt Decay or Volcanic Fallout are ways to beat it. Once you kill their clock, you just make land drops until all their tempo counters become irrelevant. If Delver decks are the problem here, people should just start playing with uncounterable removal. Afraid of Young Pyromancer tokens? Sudden Shock + Volcanic Fallout. Afraid of Monastery Swiftspear? Sudden Shock when you have priority.

A deck running Spell Pierce, Force of Will, and a bunch of cantrips with super fragile threats becomes a pile when you can remove the creatures without a way to interact with you.

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Then they cantrip into the next creature, because cantrips and the threats are so cheap. If hating out Delver is soooooo easy, I wonder why the fucking creature/strategy just top 8s in large numbers everywhere for years.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Then they cantrip into the next creature, because cantrips and the threats are so cheap. If hating out Delver is soooooo easy, I wonder why the fucking creature/strategy just top 8s in large numbers everywhere for years.

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The creature strategy used to be about 2 for 1's (Bloodbraid Elf, Snapcaster Mage, Baleful Strix, Stoneforge Mystic, Lingering Souls, Shardless Agent) and those that could survive lightning bolt and / or swords to plowshares (Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, Geist of Saint Traft). Now it's about toughness 1 and 2 creatures. Those are easily hated out.

Let them cantrip (e.g. durdle at this stage) while you make your land drops. Tempo needs an early clock to win. Once you have enough land drops, they only have Force of Will, which you by then can probably force a decent threat through.

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Originally Posted by Jamaican Zombie Legend

stuff

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Let's not forget the simple decision of whether to cantrip or to keep counter mana up.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Then they cantrip into the next creature, because cantrips and the threats are so cheap. If hating out Delver is soooooo easy, I wonder why the fucking creature/strategy just top 8s in large numbers everywhere for years.

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It's all about dat shell :cool:. Good luck explaining it to the masses!

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Originally Posted by Echelon

It's all about dat shell :cool:. Good luck explaining it to the masses!

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The shell reduces variance. Less variance = more wins. All you can do at this point is either banning the shell and turn Legacy into quasi Modern, accept Status quo or chop the head off of the Hydra in terms of threats and let pilots of the shell work for their victories.

I'm annoyed by the ever same bullshit of the ever same crowd complaining about the blue cantrip shell, combo and why Loam/Goblins/Zoo are no longer top performers.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

And tbh i'm pretty annoyed to see 4xbrainstorm everymatch, but more than that, i'm annoyed that exist no way to actually fight the strat of mass cheap cantrips because the card deemed to hate such strategies are leap and bounds below them in powerlevel, meaning the format has no meaningful way to shift away from the dominant strat.

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There is no strategy of mass cheap cantrips. Many Legacy decks of all colors play 5-10 blue cantrips for consistency, and this is great for the format. Legacy has the best blue cantrips of all formats, and Brainstorm happens to be the best of them. Brainstorm is a huge part of the reason why many Modern players are tempted by Legacy, and some of them do in fact make the jump these days.

To be fair, U/R SwiftCruise do go completely overboard with cantrips. That deck is a bit different, because it abuses the spell casting triggers and Cruise.

Chalice, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Thalia, and Eidolon are four high power Legacy cards that see play precisely because they punish cantrips severely. The cost is that you don't get to play cantrips of your own, and therefore have to find other ways to increase consistency. And no, that is not easy. Not easy at all. But what you call annoying, I call a strategical challenge.

One way to increase consistency (a little) is to go mono color.
Death and Taxes and monored Burn are both fairly well positioned right now, because they can effectively punish the Brainstorm/Probe decks.

I enjoy playing with Brainstorm. I enjoy playing against Brainstorm when they play it correctly, and even more when they (most often) don't.
And, even though I know it is extremely difficult, I enjoy figuring out new ways to play without cantrips and punish decks that do.

I am baffled by some of the post in this thread. I really don't know what your problem is.
Are you absolutely sure that you still have the capacity to enjoy the game, even if your perceived "annoying" power card would be gone?

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Originally Posted by bruizar

A deck running Spell Pierce, Force of Will, and a bunch of cantrips with super fragile threats becomes a pile when you can remove the creatures without a way to interact with you..

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Indeed.

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Originally Posted by M+1

I call a strategical challenge.

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I call it playing with worse cards.

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Originally Posted by M+1

Death and Taxes and monored Burn are both fairly well positioned right now, because they can effectively punish the Brainstorm/Probe decks.

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So well positioned

http://tcdecks.net/tierdecks.php


If you have the cards and don't some some love affair with a crap deck, there are 0 reasons to not be playing brainstorm if you want to maximize your chances to win.

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Originally Posted by testing32

If you have the cards and don't some some love affair with a crap deck, there are 0 reasons to not be playing brainstorm if you want to maximize your chances to win.

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Elves?

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Originally Posted by testing32

I call it playing with worse cards.

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Of course, that is the challenge. A good deck is more than the sum of the (objective) powerlevel of its cards.

So much resignation in this thread. Shrug.

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15144&iddeck=112373

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Originally Posted by testing32

If you have the cards and don't some some love affair with a crap deck, there are 0 reasons to not be playing brainstorm if you want to maximize your chances to win.

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i'm inclined to agree with this statement but most of us do have a love affair with certain decks. I for one, am a sucker for MUD, even though I know it's a pretty bad deck, I like to specialize in decks that have room for innovation / improvement. This is rooted in my experience of seeing T1 Workshop, Metalworker way back in the days. It had something magical. Also, not everybody has all cards.

I think instead of talking about banning Brainstorm, we just need more cards like Sylvan Library and Green Sun's Zenith. Those cards reduce variance, are competitive and are on color.

We used to have Scroll Rack / Land Tax, but that hasn't been competitive for years. It's not too crazy to think of a dude like this:
:w: Tax Auditor
Creature - Human
:1:T: Put back X White cards from your hand, draw X cards.
1/2 :

This would be really great with a card like Squadron Hawk and Land Tax (not land tax itself - but those type of cards), but wouldn't fit in cantrip.dec. The ability would probably best go with Death & Taxes, but not in blue decks (not even good enough for Entreat or Terminus in Miracles).

These type of cards could help make non-blue more competitive.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

It's not too crazy to think of a dude like this:
:w: Tax Auditor
Creature - Human
:1:T: Put back X White cards from your hand, draw X cards.
1/2 :

These type of cards could help make non-blue more competitive.

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How is this a white card..? Also, how can you not see your card doesn't do shit when it's ability is phrased like that..? It's put-3-cards-on-top-of-your-library-then-draw-3. Gee, which cards do you think you will draw..? And please don't say "Yes, but you can use fetch to shuffle your library" because you can't do anything whilst resolving an ability.

And while I'm at it - your solution is to make every color blue..?

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Originally Posted by Echelon

How is this a white card..?

Your solution is to make every color blue..?

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It's a weak Land Tax/Scroll Rack effect on a creature. That's an engine White uses already.

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The idea is that you exile X cards from your hand, draw X cards and them place the exiled cards on the top of your library.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

It's a weak Land Tax/Scroll Rack effect on a creature. That's an engine White uses already.

Edit:
The idea is that you exile X cards from your hand, draw X cards and them place the exiled cards on the top of your library.

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Except I can't remember the last time I've seen anyone play those cards...

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Except I can't remember the last time I've seen anyone play those cards...

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I have, but very very rarely. That said, it's not the point, I was simply answering your accusation that the idea was to make the other colours all turn Blue. This is not outside Whites sphere of influence. I feel the Scroll Rack engine is far superior though.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I have, but very very rarely. That said, it's not the point, I was simply answering your accusation that the idea was to make the other colours all turn Blue. This is not outside Whites sphere of influence. I feel the Scroll Rack engine is far superior though.

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Except that Land Tax tutors lands when you are running behind on land drops rather then manipulate the top of your library and Scroll Rack isn't a white enchantment but a colorless artifact. So your comparison is utterly out of place. Land Tax isn't Scroll Rack and Scroll Rack isn't white, so a walking Scroll Rack is out of whites' reach.

It's not my example, it's what the inspiration for that card is. Also last time I checked, White could use colourless cards.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

It's not my example, it's what the inspiration for that card is. Also last time I checked, White could use colourless cards.

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That still doesn't make colorless artifacts white, which was the point. The card he suggested should be a colorless card rather than a white one. That one might choose to play it in a white shell doesn't change that.

Whatever, talk to him about it. I answered your question, take your views on it up with person making the suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I answered your question

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I lol'd :laugh:

The point was that you could easily make cards that reduce variance but ONLY operate in non-blue shells.

You say that Scroll Rack is not a white effect but a colorless effect. I don't think this is an issue at all if I look at historical colorless effect and have they've been assigned to colors:
Cursed Scroll -> Magus of the Scroll
Bazaar of Baghdad -> Magus of the Bazaar
Candelabra of Tawnos -> Magus of the Candelabra

Another good example of a card that reduces variance is Magma Jet and the Temple lands (which was originally white New Benalia, colorless but refers to a WHITE location (See Benalish Hero)). Yes, the power level needs to be adjusted for eternal play, but in essence these are effects that are desirable to combat blue's dominance.

Also, power level is easily scaled for the card I proposed (Tax Auditor). It's not about the exact phrasing; it's about the intent of the card. If you really want to increase the power level so much, you can make it cost :0: and give it haste and hexproof. Power level is a balancing issue. It's not about the power level, but the way it provides white (or other colors) with a unique avenue to reduce its variance without the card ALSO being added to blue cantrip decks.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

It's not about the power level, but the way it provides white (or other colors) with a unique avenue to reduce its variance without the card ALSO being added to blue cantrip decks.

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Isn't that what Wizards said when they made Mental Misstep..? Will people ever learn..? Seriously.

Also, about your magusses - Red has burn, blue has carddraw and green cares about its lands. How are those off-color? Omg...

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Isn't that what Wizards said when they made Mental Misstep..? Will people ever learn..? Seriously.

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Did you read anything I just wrote? I mentioned effects that reduce variance and are not suitable for blue shells. Green Sun's Zenith is the prime example of this approach done right at a proper power level for eternal. Now they just need to find ways to make unique mechanics for the other 3 colors.

I think you guys are thinking about this the wrong way. What if:

Goyf was GG
TNN was WW1
Snapcaster is R1
Delver is B

Good luck getting to 18 blue cards for force. Instead of making every color have selection, just increase the power level of every other color and make it hard to splash blue.

Also, Blue has the best spells because WotC has traditionally underestimated how good the card draw and card selection cards they print are.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

If that was an actual argument, Wizards would have banned Fetchlands in all formats and Tarmogoyf in Modern ... oh! .... and Mystical Tutor would be still Legacy legal!

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Fetches would not get banned. Neither would Wasteland. At that point they might as well ban duals if they had.

Goyf isnt anywhere near the percentages of the most played Modern cards. Actually not even in the top 20 most played cards now.

Mystical Tutor, from what I hear, was all over the place in European metas and, imo, the lynch pin of the best deck since Legacy Flash: Reanimator.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Did you read anything I just wrote? I mentioned effects that reduce variance and are not suitable for blue shells.

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Not suitable for blue shells but suitable for all other colors and somehow leave out blue..? How..? Include a phrase that states you can't have the card in your deck if your deck has one or more blue cards in it..?

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Originally Posted by testing32

I think you guys are thinking about this the wrong way. What if:

Goyf was GG
TNN was WW1
Snapcaster is R1
Delver is B

Good luck getting to 18 blue cards for force. Instead of making every color have selection, just increase the power level of every other color and make it hard to splash blue.

Also, Blue has the best spells because WotC has traditionally underestimated how good the card draw and card selection cards they print are.

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That would have solved a lot of issues and would also have made both red and black a lot more interesting.

Yeah, the point I'm trying to make is that they could of avoided a lot of problems by actually printing cards that made you make difficult deck building decisions.

There are no difficult choices now; which makes including the best card in legacy a no brainer.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Not suitable for blue shells but suitable for all other colors and somehow leave out blue..? How..? Include a phrase that states you can't have the card in your deck if your deck has one or more blue cards in it..?

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Green Sun's Zenith requires you to play green creatures. GSZ is hardly ever played alongside Brainstorm (Maybe in BANT, but that's actually no problem because this way brainstorm is splashed in GW instead of GSZ being splashed in U).

Less splashable cards

Cards that Punish players for drawing extra cards (Chains of Mephistopheles / Notion Thief)

X/X Chalice of the Void creature

Cards that punish shuffling / searching (Shadow of Doubt / Aven Mindcensor / Mindlock Orb)

Etc, etc, etc

It's ironic that 3 of these examples are blue though :-)