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Hey all,
Long time player, first time poster. I've been doing a lot of tinkering with Miracles and just came up with an idea i think needs some discussion.
Keranos, God of Storms in the main deck. In either the Normal version or possibly the Ponderless Legends version.
Am i crazy or does Keranos bring a lot the deck. He is either extra draw, removal or a win con. I was thinking 2 md in the legends version. Possibly replacing a Jace. 1 in the normal also replacing the jace.
Not sure though. Thoughts anyone?
And then you meet RUG, BUG, Grixis, BURg Delver, Death and Taxes, Storm and feel sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Son Alexander
He's amazing in the board, for Shardless, Jund and stuff like that.
I can understand storm. But what about him makes me sad against any delver deck? Aside from him being 5 mana?Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
Not looking for sarcasm. I would like detailed information as to the pros and cons of at all possible.
Well... Him being 5 mana? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Son Alexander
If that's the only concern then i think it merits testing with at least 1. Jace is 4 mana. Once Keranos sticks he really can't be stopped by the delver decks. He blanks hand disruption, can't be killed by anything in the format from those decks save certain situations, helps keep the board clear for free and deals with plainswalkers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
I asked this based on the meta shift after losing dig through time. Im well aware Bug is coming back with a vengeance, which brings with it lily, stifle and Wasteland. Losing dig also means more discard like thoughtseize, hymn and inquisition.
The other bonus is you can have Jace and Keranos in play at the same time. He also pitches to FoW. Im having a difficult time seeing the cons to him which is why I asked.
Basically is this: you invest your turn without doing nothing to casy Keranos, usually we try to play around those pesky Dazes so it is really probable tgat our opponet have still one in hand so 5 lands risk to became six.Quote:
Originally Posted by Son Alexander
If you resolve jace you get to Bs or bounce while if you resolve keranos you get to... pass, and btw this doesn't make the same advantage of Jace, add that you get to reveal a card per turn and he doesn't deal with x/4s so if you are rushing to find an answer to say tarmogoyf Jace deals with it... Keranos don't
As a winning con also is inevitable but really slow, Jave Jace usually kills in less time if our plan is simply to bury our opponent under card advantage...
Anyone else here hates council's? imo its terrible, a double white slow removal. Its only really good as a lucky topdeck because it eats all the counters in the world anyway with that cost. Casting it at turn 3 to take care of a problematic permanent is risky and opens you up to anything being sorcery speed. If you cast it later you're probably in a fucked up position anyway because of the advantage already gained by target permanent.
So i just chose to play the fourth snapcaster (gold) to pressure liliana and find entreat or burst vs chalice and such.
Oh and i decided to play 2 surgical instead of rip or priest. Its just more efficient.
never liked Council.
In some periods I tried 1 MD Disenchant and now that Bug is back and with it Planeswalkers I am trying back 1 Venser +1 in SB.
I play it for the mirror match as well
RiP instead has a wider use. it stops commo creatures like Snapmage, Tarmogoyf and Dearhrite Shaman as well as it helps keeping Delve creatures in their hands
Surgical instead is better against Reanimator and Lands.
Matchups for which we already play Containment Priest and Blood Moon.
In next meta I prefer RiP.
For Flashy answers we already have Priest
Keranos is great against Gaddock Teeg decks. Against everything else Terminus/Vendilion is just better
Thank you. This was the explanation i was looking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
In the current meta. How would you guys sideboard?
Im currently planning on
2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental blast
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Rest in Peace
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Wear//Tear
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Containment Priest
1x Misdirection
1x Circle of protection Red
what's the circle for? Goblins?Quote:
Originally Posted by Son Alexander
I was under the impression burn would be played in Seattle because of the shift. During play testing against burn i found miracles got into trouble at points. But a cop locked it out. Thought it was worth considering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Keranos is a great card against Shardless. Their only real wincon after Keranos has resolved would be Goyf and Tarpit (some run TNN), everything else will just die. Outside of Shardless, it's ok in the mirror if it somehow did not get blasted on stack. That... is really it. To screw Shardless, I agree with the Blood Moon, you can try it for that Keranos spot. Blood Moon just does more in other MUs, MUD, 12 Posts, Infect, Tezzerat... etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
This argument strikes me as strange. Risky or not, it's MU dependent. What are the prime cards for CJ? Null rod, Vial, Chalice, TNN, and Liliana. Cast CJ on any of these, except against Merfolk, CJ will probably resolve. Decks running these cards are not combo deck, most of time, not sure what risk is there. I'm sure the Europeans would agree with you on Snapcaster, but... I personally dislike relying on it too much. I am actually considering running More CJ. Recently there're SO MANY Null rods, so much SDT hate, naturally we cannot rely on EE to take care of problematic permanent in this case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean
The one issue I have with CJ is the WW requirement, which is rather difficult against DnT.
Burn will be played anywhere, not to sound like an elitist, but the deck is the most budget friendly option and it can be easily converted to Modern. So yeah, it's not all that surprising. Some people use Baneslayer or Sphere of Law instead. A Lot of Goblins have White SB cards like Thalia and Wear//Tear for combo MU, Burn has destructive revelry, something for you to watch out for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Son Alexander
I'd say you're doing something else wrong, burn is a GREAT matchup for Miracles in my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Son Alexander
The Top lock is your biggest advantage in this match, so you want to aggressively dig and try to stay alive to establish it. Snapcast Viper their Guides/Eidolons, counterspell Bolts, fetch basics to play around Price of Progress, whatever you need to do. They are on the "resolve 7 spells that each do 3 or more damage" plan, so anything that breaks up that plan keeps you alive.
COP is great in theory, but in practice they'll just play lands and attack with creatures and hold all their burn spells. Now you're in a situation where you can't tap out for a Jace or Entreat or anything else that might actually win you the game; if you do, they'll throw every spell in their hand at your face. Hamstringing your mana to avoid damage in the early game actually benefits their plan more than yours, as that mana would be much better spent digging into a Top lock.
Makes perfect sense. What about the rest of my board? What would you add or remove?Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian
Maybe I'm just bad, but I've lost both times (0-2) vs. burn at the last FNM legacy D:
I'm by no means no pro, the only thing I think I'm good at is speed. I have yet had any draws with the deck, and have played for ~8months, including 6-3 finish at GP Lille. And would say my skill level is above average.
My opponent had Eidelon both games all 4 games tho. Is this the most likely the cause? Should one muligan aggresively for this matchup? (trying to fish CB post board)
EDIT: @SonAlexander, I'd actually play a Fact or Fiction in place of Jace. I've blown people out with this card while waiting for my 3rd Jace :D
Burn is in no way "an excellent matchup". Burn is fine, but not unloseable, like...Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian
Also: Keranos is INSANE(!) versus Jund. I expect both Jund and Shardless to be be more represented after DTT doesn't wreck both.
Keranos is impossible to resolve in the mirror, after everyone is playing 3 REB effects.
Regarding your sideboard: Do you play maindeck mentor? i don't think a miracles list w/o mentor is viable anymore, as Mentor makes some matchup actually more even (12-post, MUD both comes to mind; Mentor is strong versus both, as he closes games out so fast).
I would also find room for flusterstorm which is, imho, a necessity to play, as Storm, Show and Tell, the mirror as well as Tempo-decks (RUG, BUG, BURg, Grixis) are so well-represented.
I don't think Ethersworn Canonist is good anymore, as Sneak and Show are now the dominant Show and Tell deck again (due to Omnitell being garbage again :D), where Canonist isn't as strong, as they don't need to play any more spells are Show and Tell resolves.
I think it's too much to actually dedicate something for Burn, but if I was to do so, I'd much rather have something like Blue Elemental Blast.
I'm not a big fan of Misdirection, even though it's cute again (shardless) bug-decks, with respectively Hymn, A.Visions and Decay.
All fantastic information. Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
So cut the ethersworn and cop for 2x Flusterstorm. Cut the Misdirection (even though i love that card and it catches people off guard) for say another Containment Priest?
Do i have enough against the creature decks?
I'm running the stock version of miracles with no mentor. As much as i like mentor I've never found a use for him in either main or board. I usually come across top hate so mentor is difficult to utilize.
Also... is the legends version worth considering?
2x V Clique
2x Venser
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Karakas
1x Cavern of Souls
???
The key to victory against Jund is CB floating a cmc 2, preferably floating the back-up CB. It's really not about Keranos. I guess it's possible in theory for Jund to Dark Confidant its way into drawing Red Blast effect to try to blast Keranos on stack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
Canonist is definitely weaker in the current meta. However, let's look at what it's still good at: Storm, Food Chain, Aluren, Elves, and Griselbrand Storm. You might say, Canonist doesn't do anything against Sneak and Show, well, do you intend to replace it with Meddling Mage? MM is a popular alternative since BBD runs it. However, MM can be Red blasted while Canonist cannot. It's fine either way, I'm just pointing out pros/cons of each.
Legend Miracles by definition should have 2 Karakas. The issue most people have running Legend is the clunky opening. Without Ponders, it's difficult to make land drops on schedule and super vulnerable to stifle/wasteland. When you get to mid/late game, this "dance" of legendary creatures is keeping you alive, but you are not winning. Apparently Lossett is still able to find the winning line and frequently finish his match on time*, but can you say the same for anyone else?Quote:
Originally Posted by Son Alexander
Do you play Ponder?Quote:
Originally Posted by Son Alexander
Mentor is insane against most decks, especially in the board, due to them cutting most of their removal.
I have a friend who loves MisD too (and I have a find place in my heart, due to vintage), but I've disliked it in legacy due to the powerlevel being somewhat weaker.
I don't think 2 Containment Priest is necessary, I don't even play one (even though I might again). Yes, with Swords, Terminus and Snapcaster mages, you should be fine against creature decks. I don't even think Verdict is good.
Even though I love Keraboss, I think Blood Moon is actually better (and shines in the same matchups - Shardless and Jund basically). It also hit lands (and I even started boarding it versus infect, due to shutting off Nexus).
Even though Mentor might seem "weak" it just makes some matchups actually winable, and you WILL face those decks in larger tournaments - The soulless people of this world (MUD), The people that just want to see the world fall apart (12-Post) and the trolls (Goblins), where Mentor is good.
Angelo Cadai's sideboard is really good, even though I'd likely play 2 RIP over the first surgical as well as Sulfur Elemental over the Izzet Staticaster.
As mentioned by a lot (Smarter) people than me, I don't understand how Lossett puts up the results he does, but he is an incredible player, who tailored his deck to his liking. I think a generic Ponder list is stronger in most peoples hands.
*I would play Pithing Needle currently, over both Canonist as well as Meddling Mage (Chris Pikula artwork)
I didn't realize that you needed 4 Top, 4 Brainstorm, AND 4 Ponder to hit your land drops. I wonder how I ever managed to win a match with this deck [/sarcasm]Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Strange that you would suggest the flash creatures can't win the game. I'm confused as to how running Ponders over Cliques wins faster.
There's also the style of deck that was played before Shonegger wrote those articles:
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/326173#online
That list with the Venser either in the board, or gone altogether. Joe doubled-down on Venser/Clique after people started running 4 Ponder, but a lot of people are having success with just a few flash creatures maindeck. Double Karakas is pretty miserable. It's not as if the point of running them is to recur them with Karakas; the Cliques fill holes in the deck's gameplan against combo decks so that you don't concede every combo matchup where you don't hit Counter-Top early. Ponders are much better against the Delver decks, but when the flash creatures are good, they're great.
There are different concepts covered in your couple paragraphs, I feel they're all mixed in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
It's not about Ponder vs Clique, it's Snapcaster vs Clique. They are about deck construction philosophy, they don't necessarily attribute to whichever wins faster.
When you pick a Miracles build, typically you have to decide which creature do you value more, Snapcaster vs Clique in the pre-Dig/TC era. Once you value Snapcaster more, it's only natural and logical to compliment Snapcaster with Ponder. All your subsequent card choices are pretty much leaning toward spell, since you center around Snap.
When you value Clique more, now you are tempted to run 2nd Karakas and MD Venser. Yes, some people including me shy away from doing that. I myself consider that too showy no substance. Yes, Double Karakas can be miserable but it's pretty amazing in reanimator/sneak and show MU.
If you watch legend miracles in action, often it's trying to stabilize by blocking opponent's creature with a Legendary creature, bounce it using Karakas before combat damage. This is not advancing board state. Also, how many times do you Clique trigger targeting yourself because you want to find more land? The Legend build is all about that.
Flash creatures always can win games, and most miracles builds except reid duke run them regardless which versions. The question is what kind of flash creatures, if any, how many. Once you've decided, rest might just fall into places by themselves.
Even Joe runs 2 Snapcasters; it's the best piece of filler the deck has. You don't have to choose between that and Clique. Bouncing creatures with Karakas is something that just happens, albeit more when you have 2 copies. It's not as if it's the deck's gameplan.
If you want to use Joe's list as an example, the main difference between versions is Ponders in one and Clique/Venser in the other:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9615&d=255241&f=LE
Adding Ponder to the core cards of the deck gives more consistency to the payoff cards (Counterbalance/Terminus) and helps you develop your mana. This makes the deck better in matchups where the core package is effective. Adding Vendilion Clique and possibly Venser gives you a secondary angle of attack for when the engine is either ineffective or offline. Hoping you spike enough Counterbalances against Storm or Show and Tell decks, for example, isn't high probability. I was surprised to see so many people saying that Omnitell was a terrible matchup, but after a while I realized that they basically have to counterbalance lock them or auto-lose. Clique is completely broken against decks like this or Storm, and instead of just a playset of Counterbalance as relevant cards you've got nearly a second playset of cards that can put the game away. There's also Shardless and other random matchups where Cliques have a lot of value.
That's how I see it, anyway. I think people play Ponder against the dominant Delver decks, realize how good it is, and then make sweeping assumptions about the card's power level. This is an already favored matchup that gets better, at the cost of the disadvantaged matchups. Maybe that's why Joe magically is able to win matches with his "unplayable" deck?
Thanks everyone. This is a wonderful discussion with great information.
Yes im using ponders.
So for sideboard it sounds like this is how it should be
3x REB effects
2x Rest in Peace
2x Blood Moon
2x Flusterstorm
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Monestary Mentor
1x Containment Priest
1x Keranos, God of Storms
Sounds about right? Or should Mentors be moved to main to make room for Pithing Needle/Meddling Mage?
I would want to find room for Wear//Tear (/Disenchant, depending on 2/3 volcanic Island) as well as Engineered Explosives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Son Alexander
I agree. I want 2 wear tear. I hate silver bullets honestly. So I'm a "2 of" kind of guy. The question is. What is ultimately more important. Which is what is racking my brain...Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
With 4 ponder, 4 brainstorm as well as 4 top, you WILL see most cards in your deck, fairly consistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Son Alexander
I'm playing 1 Blood Moon as well as 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Explosives over your 2nd blood moon, Containment priest as well as Keraboss.
Against liliana and sylvan why should it resolve? As i said vs chalice and vial im willing to gamble the fow or entreat game1. You might not draw it in time even if you play it anyway, for me its not worth its general clunkyness. The risk of tapping out depends on the context. They might not straight up win like a combo deck, but you can fall behind in a variety of ways.Quote:
This argument strikes me as strange. Risky or not, it's MU dependent. What are the prime cards for CJ? Null rod, Vial, Chalice, TNN, and Liliana. Cast CJ on any of these, except against Merfolk, CJ will probably resolve. Decks running these cards are not combo deck, most of time, not sure what risk is there. I'm sure the Europeans would agree with you on Snapcaster, but... I personally dislike relying on it too much. I am actually considering running More CJ. Recently there're SO MANY Null rods, so much SDT hate, naturally we cannot rely on EE to take care of problematic permanent in this case.
Null rod is a sb card, i bring in disenchant and wear which are a billion times better than council's for that job. I dont think ee should be played now that rod is popular anyway.
CJ is a good 1-of for those games that have gone to a stalemate where you just need to get rid of that one pesky permanent (often not something that can be Disenchanted away) and then you can win. It's not for a turn 3 removal, so tapping out for it should never happen. When I cast it, it is moderate to high impact. It prevents Batterskull from becoming a recurring problem, it kills opposing Jaces, gets rid of TNN if you're low on Terminus, is hard to counter off of CB so it can deal rather well in the mirror, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean
Finally a nice discussion about the flash creatures of the deck.
I'm a big fan of the Legend mechanic, especially with Venser. I'm also totally aware of the power of Ponder to increase regularity and velocity so i think the best approach is a mix of both decks. I won't go into details why i think V. Clique and Venser are amazing because i don't have much time right now but we can discuss that next time.
This weekend will be the French National Cup. I'm expecting a lot of Miracles, BUG Shardless and Delver deck (Temur and Sultai) and a few Sneak and Show, Storm and Death and Taxes, with some Jund and Infect. In this field i believe the Legend version is better than the 4-Ponder version, better against the mirror, BUG Shardless, Sneak and Show and DnT. Here is the version i'm planning to play. Feel free to critic it.
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Volcanic Island
2 Arid Mesa
2 Karakas
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Counterspell
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Ponder
4 Terminus
SB: 1 Wear / Tear
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Monastery Mentor
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Counterbalance
And a not totally finished sideboard guide:
Sneak and Show:
+ Priest, Venser, Needle, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 CB, 2 REB, 1 Cavern
- 1 Plains, 3 StP, 4 Terminus, 1 Entreat
BUG Shardless:
+ 2 Mentor, 1 Venser, 2 REB, 1 Wear Tear, 1 Cavern, 1 StP
- 3 CB, 4 FoW, 1 V. Clique/Tundra
Miracles:
+ 2 Mentor, Venser, CB, 2 REB, Cavern
- Plains, 2 Terminus, 3 StP, 1 Entreat
RUG ********:
+ 2 Mentor, 2 RiP, 1 CB, 2 Flusterstorm, 2 REB, 1 StP, 1 Cavern
- Venser, 4 FoW, 2 CS, 2 Jace, 1 SCM, 1 Entreat
Storm:
+ 1 Venser, 2 RiP, 1 CB, 2 Fluster, 2 REB
- Plains, 3 StP, 1 Terminus, 2 Jace, 1 Entreat
Elf:
+1 CB, 2 Mentor, 1 Priest, 1 StP, 1 Wear/Tear, 1 Flusterstorm
- 2 Jace, 2 Clique, 2 REB, 1 Venser
DnT:
+2 Mentor, 1 Priest, 1 Venser, 1 Needle, 1 Wear/Tear, 1 StP, 1 Cavern
- 3 CB, 2 REB, 2 FoW, 1 CS
BUG Delver:
+2 Mentor, Venser, 2 RiP, 1 Wear/Tear, 1 StP, 1 REB, 1 Cavern
- 4 FoW, 3 CB, 2 SCM
I'm a strong believer of the Mountain, since i like to able to cast my REB against Delver decks. MD REB expecting Mirror, BUG Shardless and Delver as the most played deck is a no brainer for me. I'm not totally confident with only 1 Plains but so far (GP Lille and 10h of testing) it wasn't a problem. I don't like playing 4 CB MD, espacially now that there are more deck where it's very bad, and even worse in multiple (BUG, Jund, DnT). I believe 4 Terminus/3 StP is better than the contrary.
Thank you if you give me some comments.
I have a question regarding your SBing vs Miracles: Do you still board out removal as aggressive if you are playing vs the current Cadei List (2 Mentors MD), with just 2 Terminus as safety net?
Also, my guess for SBing vs Lands:
Out: 4 Terminus 1 REB 1 Pyro 2 Entreat
In: 1 Stp 1 CB 2 RIP 1 Needle 1 Wear/Tear ??
Those are the cards I would definitely bring. I feel Entreat is too bad, but is Mentor good enough (I assume so)? How about the Venser from the SB? Do you bring in Caverns to increase your Landcount vs Port/Wasteland? (also works under Choke).
I'm playing a big tournament next week, and I'm not sure 4 Ponder Miracles is where I want to be. Many thanks for the input!
One of the things I've found while running the Ponderless version is you tend to get stuck for 1 drops occasionally. Because you don't run 4 ponders you need to up your land count to about 23 to ensure drops. While this helps against Wasteland decks. You tend to start topping into 3 land. This was discovered after several hours/days of testing.
While im not a huge fan of ponder. I do see the need for it. Ponder seems to be a necessary evil.
Not running ponders also makes finding silver bullets from your sideboard more difficult.
As a personal taste, i feel all versions of Miracles have merit and i have personally tasted all versions extensively over the last couple months planning for GP Seattle. This was probably a double edged sword because ive found it difficult to settle on a version because each deck is good against different things in the meta. Its also why sideboarding is so difficult because the board is adopted to which version you choose.
My brain hurts...
So you ran enough games to notice what has to be a <5% decrease in mana consistency, and added two more lands to your deck. Then you played enough games to notice the even smaller increased occurrence of 3-land Top activations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Son Alexander
I think it's best to present opinion as opinion.
For you info. Joe has played 22 lands without ponder and have put up good results this year, this was when Dig was legal. Not sure if it matters tho. Joe also played another land in SB, but I think this was due to the mountain main, and not because of being scared for missing lands. So no need to actually make 23 lands if you want other things.
However, I agree with just adding some ponder and call it a day is better.
You are correct. This is based solely off my opinion and personal experience while play testing. I test miracles for hours each night using tappedout.net to build meta decks and play against myself to see how each formula stands up to each deck in the format. I meant no offense while relaying my view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
People on here will tell you otherwise, but I think 2 Terminus as a safety net is the way to go. You should expect to see more creatures post-board, so there's no reason whatsoever to take out all 4 board wipes, especially when the creature(s) will likely be Mentors. All 3-4 Swords are safe coming out, but I like to keep at least 1 just in case. You never know, they might bring in some big fatty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp2293
Philipp2293: Yes, i don't like to have many removals against Miracles after board. Against a list with 2 Mentor, i think 2 Terminus, 0 StP is perfect. If you know your opponent plays 4 Mentors, keep 3 or 4 Terminus. I don't like StP because all their creatures are blue so REBs do the jobs and you can also trade with your creatures. StP sucks agaisnt Mentor seems any token is a must-answer threat and they will certainly have one or two tokens if they resolve a Mentor.
More more thing about sideboarded games against Miracles, Cavern of Souls with V. Clique and Venser (and 2 Karakas) is probably the most powerful thing you can do and i'm not sure people realize that.
To be honest, i didn't test at all versus Lands so i will probably say bullshit but i would def. bring in the 2nd Venser and the two Mentors. I feel like Entreat is still good enough not to board them out. I would remove 2 REBs, 2 SCM for sure then some removals. With 2 Karakas, it's easier to handle their Legenday tokens but i don't know how many removals is needed. Are you sure StP is better than Terminus ? +20 life really decreased your clock and might give them the turns they need to recover (not sure about that). Adding a 23th also seems good here, depending if you don't have a better card to play in post-sideboarded 60 cards.
Swords is way better than terminus, I've had a much easier time beating lands by ulting jace than trying to beat them down and hold terminus for lage. The gameplan for beating lands is 1. Secure a white mana source 2. Establish CB lock and shutdown loam and fire 3. Jace em out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka1333