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I've been playing both ANT and Canadian and I have to say first game is in favour of ANT. Combo player only has to fear fow if he knows he's playing against canadian keep one mana open and fetch lands only when necessary, some times it's better to use chrome mox so they stifle it play the fetch the land. After sideboard Canadian has 70/30 in his favour thanks to disrupts and pyros, also is ok to side in ee. Out Ponders (we have to play disrupt) F/I and bouncers.
I am indeed convinced that Aggro Loam is a good matchup for Tempo Thresh. I played this particular matchup a lot as a friend of mine was tired of losing to Tempo Thresh with his Aggro Loam and we adjusted it to turn the win percentages a bit. Basically Aggro Loam is very easy to catch with its pants down. They do run about 12 creatures. Amongst those there are always 4 Tarmogoyf and most of time some Countryside Crushers and Confidants. Those can be handled very easily. Besides they do run about 26 lands +4 Moxen but amongst those lands there are cycle lands, Wastelands and some utility lands that produce colorless mana.
The rest of the deck usually is some Devastating Dreams (they are really bad and especially risky in this matchup) and Chalice of the Void (Wins for them if they get it very early on and you don't have any Force of Will, but this doesn't happen that often. Besides, the testing games for this matchup have finally shown me that the bounce spells are not just cool and Force fodder but can easily win games, especially Rushing River has been very good for me in this matchup.
It is absolutely ok for me to play VS Aggro Loam with Tempo Threshold. I don't say it is an awesome matchup, but rather favorable for Thresh.
Enchantress is what I consider slightly negative, I don't have that many test games VS that though and my tournament experience might have been against quite bad builds/pilots because I crushed every enchantress deck I played so far even when I was piloting goblins.
I feel that our most common bad matchup are all together most of the decks discussed in the CB + Top thread. The rest of the decks you named, such as Train Wreck, Stax and 43 Lands are actually decks I have to face very seldom, but this might of course be different in your metagame.
Goblins should be 55-45 pre and postboard. We get Clasm, they get Relic. That's just fair, depending on how many copies of each card everyone has.
Merfolk isn’t a bye I think. Indeed they can get hands where it is very hard to win and you have to play very tight most of the games against this deck. But simply the structure of this deck gives us an advantage against Merfolk. They have weak creatures that pump each other. We have good creatures and a shitload of burn. This has always been good in this type of matchup, just the way it is good VS Goblins, Elves, Zombies, Dwarves, Faeries… every kind of tribal decks.
Goblins easily has the tools to beat us. We can easily lose to Port+Waste or to a Vialed Ringleader in mid- to lategame. Relic paired with an aggressive plan also wrecks us usually.
I don't see how you can't lose a game after your first turn against ANT. You lose to land-land-land-Chant all the time. Spell Snare is usually a pretty bad card and Daze usually only matters in multiples. The only real threats you have are 4 FoW.
Hm, you have a lot of outs against that. But shall I tell you how to really lose against Goblins? If he goes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
Lackey (bolted), Lackey (FoW'd), Lackey (resolves, play Goose), Warren Wierding, Warren Weirding.
That happened to me in Annecy. Twice. And I'm really not calm enough to not shout at my opp when hat happens.
Bu really, the Goblin player is absolutely dependant on either Lackey or Aether Vial on his 1st Turn everything else is just irrelevant and doesn't apply pressure. If he tries to attack the base with Waste+Port, just stifle the Wastes and Waste the Ports. I have never lost against non-recurred manadenial with TempoThresh so far nor was it ever a problem.
ANT plays plenty of fetchland, doesn't it? And the white manasources for Chant are nonbasic. You might waste them. Or just any nonbasic in an opportune moment. This is where Daze shines then.Quote:
I don't see how you can't lose a game after your first turn against ANT. You lose to land-land-land-Chant all the time. Spell Snare is usually a pretty bad card and Daze usually only matters in multiples. The only real threats you have are 4 FoW.
Spell Snare isn't great, that's true, but the fact that you play it makes it nearly impossible for the opponent to go for the LED-LED-Infernal plan.
Hitting Cabal Rituals can also steal wins.
But they key is basically to apply pressure, Bolts and Fire//Ices can drag down his lifetotals like VERY FAST to make Ad Nauseam suck.
Of course you can lose to a very lucky hand, but overall the matchup should be fine, especially when you are running gooba's board with the Disrupts.
edit: Oh, and you Nijmengen guys are playing Force Spike. That's even better against ANT. :-)
I usually play pacts maindeck over orims and leave the tundra to sideboard, and since the nerf of Leds im not running em anymore. But okay, most lists plays them. As I said I think first game is favourable to ANT (also, depending on what list we take) but post side if we got disrupts its alot easier.
Look, things just don't always go the way you want them too. You do not have acces to Waste+Stifle or double Waste/Stifle every game. The deck doesn't work that flawlessly. You don't have to tell me we win with Stifle Waste and Daze if the opponent fetches, but if he plays around Stifle, gets basics and wait long enough to win through Daze, Ant has very decent chances of winning.
Goblins has a huge edge when they resolve turn 1 Vial or connect with Lackey, but it's definitely not true at all they automatically lose if they don't. You have a hard time defeating a 24-land mana base with very aggressive creatures that give card advantage as well. Active Vial and connecting Lackey means you lose if they have a decent hand.
Having a lot of outs means absolutely nothing. You pretty much want to counter everything the Goblin player plays. They have almost no creatures that don't matter, especially post-board, when crappy goblins come out for Relics. As I said before, Relic fucks you badly, especially in an aggressive deck that also runs ways to make alot of dudes.
That might just be the most suitable description of your manabase, sir.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleksandr
What advantage does this color combination give you?
Well, of course it sucks when you are 4colored.Quote:
Why no Stifle+Waste? I hate to mull because of no blue land.
Burn does damage to the head. Yes. But Swords to Plowshares gives the opponent life, am I right? So what sense does it make to play a Lightning Bolt and a Fire/Ice onto your opponent when a Sword on his Tarmogoyf gives him these 5 life just back?Quote:
Why StP and burn together? I like to destroy creatures, and StP + burn is good at it.. also burn can aim at head.
IT'S A FUCKING ANTI SYNGERY I HAVE CRITIZICED FOR YEARS, WHY DO PEOPLE STILL DO THIS???
Seriously, Red should be for Firespout and REBs SB. If ever. But currently I don't see why you shouldn't play Black which provides Confidant as a good CA machine and Thoughtseize and Engineered Plague as equivalents to REBs and Firespouts.
Uhm, just to recap: You are neither playing CB-Top nor Stifle-Waste, altogether with a awful manabase and the Burn+StoP design-fail.
Why should this build ever be viable?
So, you posted a list in the TEMPO thresh thread in which you wrecked the manabase and cut the mana denial to splash for cards that give your opponents extra life?
Ha, that was rather funny ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleksandr
Seriously, I can respect the power of tons of removal, but since you don't play the mana denial anyways, why not make it Path to Exile? Make it a Bant Aggro with some counters, and you will do fine I think. I see what you are trying to do here and I you encourage you to try it out, but I agree with previous speaker regarding anti-synergy.
With the uprising of Zoo and Merfolk, among other Aggro decks, is Flametongue Kavu not a great card oncemore?
I play him as a two-off these days, and it wins many games and often gives you a two-for 1, or an efficient beater.
Your thoughts?.
It has same issue than other cards what cost 4cc - it cost too much. And i think we have plenty of burn already so we don't need extra removal. What you have cutted for it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Volrath
The Lorescale's i have been testing with, i founnd them subpar in an Aggro meta.
So my creatures look like this now(still testing)
4x goyf
4x mongoose
3x metagame filler(Magus/FTK/Clique/Lorescale.
Usually 2 magus and 1 clique, 2 Lorescale and 1 clique or 2 magus and 1 kavu or 2 kavu and one clique.
I admit that comment also made me smile, but running Path to Exiles means automatically that you will have to cut Daze. And that sucks. Especially when you are trying to play Tempo and in consequence to force ppl to play into Daze. Every Path you resolve against your opponent makes Daze worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Henrik
The only build where you might be able to play it is maybe our SPOD-build from Annecy (which doesn't play Daze anymore) or in the Sb against matchups where you would board out Dazes (i.e. Aggroloam).
But this is usually the SB-plan of Counterbalance Thresh, I actually never side out Dazes when playing Tempothresh.
I thought Ichorid was a bad matchup for this deck? Caplan always seems to 2-0 it on the way to some Top 8. Im playing his list from the GP. What are the Game 1 strategies against Ichorid to make the matchup a little better? Also what strategies for boarding/Games 2 and 3?
I feel like it should be a better matchup than my testing suggests, maybe he is just getting lucky? Caplan himself if he reads this would be helpful.
Counter the discard outlets and play goyfs is usually how I win game one. As for siding REBS/Pyroblast, EE, and Pyroclasm all come in.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrialByFire
Its very hard to win this matchup against someone who knows how the deck and MU is played. If you go first and show a blue and he simply DDD's you have to make a goyf/goose on turn 2 to have any chance of winning. Forceing his discard outlet will only happen if he is a bad player and trys to cast spells against you on the draw or you force the first turn explode.Quote:
Originally Posted by J.V.
The thing is alot of ichorid players forget FOW is a card which is why they get blown out, if you FOW thier first turn followed by waste/goyf/goose/daze/other disruption they just die.
Also to the above goblins problem: If goblins isnt a buy 2-0 or 2-1 switch decks, your not doing it right.
My list is the standard 60 -2 bounce +2 Clique which makes the relic matchups better.
PS: if you insist on building a worse deck with UGrw dont play swords play path, at least that is somewhat logical since you dont play mana denial. but :eyebrow: that deck just seems bad no CT and no waste/stifle makes for a bad thresh list.
Originally, I wrote Ichorid off as a very bad matchup and decided not to do any extensive testing or sideboard tweaking against it. I made this decision through my experience in Vintage where I would try to strengthen my deck against Ichorid by tweaking the sideboard, and by doing so, I would weaken my sideboard vs the rest of the field.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrialByFire
I have yet to lose a match to Ichorid in an event with Canadian Threshold, and I have played against it many times. Some of these have been purely based on luck (see Winter Wonderland Report vs Anwar), while others I found that I can cut off their discard outlet to beat them. At the GP, my opponent mulliganed to 3 game 1, and in the prelims at Gencon my opponent mulliganed to 4. The deck seems to require frequent mulligans, and many keepable hands get blown away by Force, Daze, Stifle or Burn (for discard outlet). In addition to these hands that are easily stopped, Ichorid relies on the randomness of dredges, and sometimes their first dredge can hit blank, and they need to go into topdeck mode. I really don't want to go over all the inconsistencies of Dredge, because I am sure they are well known, my real point is not that Dredge looses to its own inconsistency, but that Canadian Thresh makes it difficult for Dredge to recover from these inconsistencies though its numerous cheap/free countermagic.
Tarmogoyf allows you to race them if they stagger on their start. Stifle hits Coliseum, Narcomeba triggers, bridge triggers, Ichorid triggers, Ichorid sacrificing. Your cheap countermagic (especially postboard) allows you to stop their discard outlet quite often. In addition to the cards that J.V. recommended you put in, I normally side in Disrupts, another cheap counterspell that can hit Careful Studys or Breakthroughs, or, when useless, just cantrip.
As for game 1, focus on keeping mana open to counter discard outlets, treat it as a combo deck. Then, use your cantrips to dig for a Tarmogoyf to race them.
Hope this helps.
Why are we trying to splash white? Aren't wasteland decks (ironically) a good way of fighting this deck? And did some say Path to fucking Exile in a mana denial deck!? Oh swell, lets make Daze, Stifle and Wasteland suck for a splash that doesn't really add much to the deck and makes our mana base even weaker. Swords to Plowshares? Do you enjoy 2-1 ing yourself? Do you like to make your Lightnings Bolts fucking useless? Wasn't the reason we play Tempo was to have quick critters and reach to finish them off? Go play Zoo if you want to play with Bolts and Swords as it's debatable in at least that deck.
...
Sorry, splashing white seems like a bad idea for this deck. 3 colors is enough and neither of the white removal splash mesh well with this deck and create a HUGE amount of bad synergy. I could see black as a possible splash, maybe for Dark Confidant (for card advantage) or Thoughtseize (more disruption)... maybe. But not white, and even if white were a possibility, it most likely wouldn't be Swords and it certainly wouldn't be Path to fucking Exile.
What's the matter with you, forgot to take your blood medicine this morning?
Chill, jeez... PtE was suggested for a list that didn't use neither wasteland nor stifle, but I guess you missed you missed that. Also, it is quite obvious that daze won't be played in such a list either, which was also mentioned. The aim of the suggested list was simply to have a lot of removal, which doesn't necessarily mean you 2-1 yourself with a swords to plowshares either, would you choose to run it.
I don't say that is a good list either, I just want to calm you down, so that your heart doesn't stop.
Thank you for your informative post though, lots of f-words and other cool stuff from the hood.
This isn't me mad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Henrik
At this point it really isn't tempo thresh. It's like going into a Landstill deck and suggesting to run 8-cheap beaters in place of counters: it's not really Landstill at that point.Quote:
Chill, jeez... PtE was suggested for a list that didn't use neither wasteland nor stifle, but I guess you missed you missed that. Also, it is quite obvious that daze won't be played in such a list either, which was also mentioned. The aim of the suggested list was simply to have a lot of removal, which doesn't necessarily mean you 2-1 yourself with a swords to plowshares either, would you choose to run it.
That isn't me mad. :laugh:Quote:
I don't say that is a good list either, I just want to calm you down, so that your heart doesn't stop.
Thank you for your informative post though, lots of f-words and other cool stuff from the hood.