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I have played UGW CounterTop the Stefan Czolk build and I must say it is good but I always tend to lose to merfolk. I did take 21st place out of 138 at the large Vestal tourny. I know that list and I'm tired of playing it. I played 4c baseruption. This is the only list that i see putting results up anymore. I would like to play Ugw but I just think blacks removal is better bc of Deed and SmotherQuote:
Originally Posted by Cenarius
man that coverage was the best ive ever seen on the web.. kudos to the japanese production crew.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanbathez
I don't want to spam this thread, but I'd like to comment that I totally agree. Really professional and superbly done. - Bardo
Alright, so what I have seen for a lot of UGw shells is the following for creatures:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Sower of Temptation
6 xxx
My question is what creatures do you fill in those slots? Why?
Between Trygon Predator, Rhox War Monk, Vendilion Clique, Lorescale Coalt and Qasali Pridemage, I'm unsure of what to fill with those slots.
I'm currently doing:
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Trygon Predator
2 Qasali Pridemage
Q: Is a metagame better to the warmonk build or the confidant build (random metagame). And can you play confidant WITH warmonk or is that a nombo?
Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
I don't have underground seas.
You can easily play Ugwb CounterTop, it's very powerful. I'd run a creature base like 4 Goyf, 4 Confidant, 2 Trygon, 2 Rhox War Monk (if you were looking to fit these, otherwise I like V Clique personally). This gives you access to 4 StP and you can still play Shackles for a creature control element. You could also board into Rhox War Monk in an unknown metagame, which might be your best option.
My latest list, tweaked for my local meta full of Merfolk
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Academy Ruins
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Trinket Mage
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Fire//Ice
2 Spell Snare
1 Vedalken Shackles
--- Sideboard ---
4 Pyroblast
3 Firespout
3 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Snare
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Threads of Disloyalty
For my next big 25+ man tourney I'm making the following meta adjustments, to prepare for more Zoo and Tempo Thresh
-2 Fire//Ice
+2 Threads of Disloyalty
That 6 xxx would include 3-4 Qasali Pridemage.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
After 15 or so games w/ UGbw (black for Bob in the main and Thoughtseize in the side; white for Pridemage and StP in the main), I cut back to U/g/w to have more consistent mana. This is what I'm testing now, seems really good. It still runs after the mana is hit with both a Stifle and Wasteland, unlike the 4c version which just folded--since it's less reliant on its duals to cast spells.
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
Sideboard:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Meddling Mage
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
The U/G fetch is much loved here. I like the 19th land, because you really want to have 3 mana open on turn 3/4 (depending on Daze) and because Top demands a lot of mana. 2x Sower can substitute for the War Monks. Depends on your meta. Against certain decks (like Zoo, burn and Goyf Sligh -- which are popular here in Portland), War Monk wins games, janky as it seems.
For those who want to give U/g/w a spin, try this.
Edit - @ Gamegeek2 - If you're meta is swarmed with Merfolk, run those Firespout in the main (moving EE to the board). It's a freaking house vs. Tribal Aggro-control.
@Bardo: I'm diggin your latest. How is the clique working for you? Could it be something else like shackles, trinket mage, rafiq??? I realize it's a cool card but might we be served better with something that doesn't eat it to every removal spell in the format?
Clique is still flexible--not 100% sold yet. I like him because he flies, costs 3 (for the curve and CB), has flash and has a built-in Peak+bonus built in. Honestly though, since I don't own real versions, so I have Mystic Enforcers subbing for the Cliques in my IRL deck at the moment. (Incidentally, Enforcer is too slow for my taste--since he basically costs 5 with a Top in play) Shackles is too slow (5 mana removal--I think threads would be better); Trinket Mage has only one target in the main and is just a 2/2 body for 3 mana; Rafiq is totally win-more and off the curve (maybe if he was a 2/2 for UGW). Coatl may also be on the short-list, but the deck doesn't need any more non-evasive fat.Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzykat
Fire//Ice is more flexible and isn't COMPLETELY dead in certain matchups. I'm loving EE, and it's saved my butt more than a few times against things like Landstill. Not to mention there's a maindeck Academy Ruins.
Bardo, what are your feelings on Trygon Predator?
I feel this went unnoticed.Quote:
Originally Posted by johanessen
Cataclysm puts the CB deck in a very unstable position.
Also, it doesn't crush Stax. Stax keeps a 2 mana land, plus a plains from Flagstones, Crucible, Magus and Prison/Moat. More than enough to keep Counterbalance from doing anything the rest of the game. You have to pay 1 to keep your Goyf alive, he can't attack and now you're under a Wastelock. Hopefully you'll remember this if you play Cataclysm in a tournament and see Stax.
He's hard to evaluate--sometimes he's a flying 2/2 for three (a really shitty Gaea's Skyfolk); other times, he owns face (vs. Stax, mirror, hitting random shit your opponent was counting on). In my mind, he competes with VClique for the same slot and it can go either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
In Clique's favor, it doesn't demand a main phase commitment of mana, can be played off UUW or UUG, hits for an extra point, gives you critical strategic information and interact with your opponent's hand (which only black-splash CB can do). For this reason, the little fucker can get in for 6-12 damage.
Predator hits for less, sits at a good place in the curve and again, sometimes suffers from the Gaea's Skyfolk problem -- but can be an extraordinary nuisance for your opponent too.
I'm going to hedge my bets and just say, "consider your metagame." :)
In an open, dunno what the fuck you're going to face metagame, I think Clique is a little better and Predators wants to be a sideboard card, but then it's competing with Grip, which is more reliable for the job it does.
In the clique spot I'm going to try threads. There is very little combo in my meta and there are always canadian thresh/dreadstill/bob's etc. Grabbing 1 of those and keeping them for a turn or 2 even is very game changing.
Not that I want to stop people from playing him ... but why are people still playing Sower?
"If you already have CB in play ..."
I keep hearing that's the reason he's good. As far as I'm concerned, if I have the CB/top lock in place, the rest is just a formality until I win. Anything better to be said for him?
He takes a creature? A must kill creature?Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmaniac21
If you use your removal on my Goyfs and other creatures and I play a Sower, that's a massive swing in game state.
But yes, I do agree he seems like a "win-more" card and not having him wouldn't cripple the deck. More of a preference really.
I'm thinking more about his effects. Why do people use him in some lists over say, shackles? Or even Control magic?Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmaniac21
Cause he can beat face in matchups where Control Magic would be a dead draw (ANT, Burn, Landstill).
I played my list above in a small (8-10) person tournament and got "2nd" -- though there were so few people so this post shouldn't count for much.
List:
Same as above (post #428), except:
-1 Vendilion Clique
+1 War Monk
-4 Misty Rainforest (Didn't own any at the time)
+2 Windswept Heath
+1 Polluted Delta
+1 Scalding Tarn
Otherwise, same list card for card.
Round 1 vs. Janky Milling Deck
Not much to say here: his mill effects have the effect of powering up huge Goyfs, which supported by Pridemage and CounterTop are more than enough to get the job done.
Round 2 vs. Dredge
Game 1, Turn 1, my opponent drops an LED (no Force from me) and proceeds to go nuts . I throw in the towel on T3 facing an army of 2/2 zombies. I do the math and move to G2.
Out: -4 Counterbalance, -3 Spell Snare, -1 Clique; In: All of my Relics, Crypts, Magi.
Game 2, Very close. In the end, Relic prevents the dredge shenanigans, I survive the zombie assault, rebuild and win this game with a War Monk, Goyf, Pridemage and Meddling Mage on "Breakthrough."
Game 3, Textbook. I StP his turn 1 Putrid Imp, drop a Relic the next turn, empty the graveyards when the time is right and beat face with a smallish Goyf (3/4) and Meddling Mage. It was a bit more complex than this, but I took no notes.
Really good games.
Turn 3. Jak beats my ass playing Bant Survival. Not sure what I should have done differently. Our decks seemed evenly positioned, but he did a better job of rebuilding. Plus: flyers.
Oh, Rafiq + RWM + double Exalter triggers = Awesome. A gigantic beating.
About my CT list: solid. I got in ~ 10 games vs. Zoo the previous night + a bunch of games vs. Affinity and Landstill and it list played superbly. The basic lands (replacing the black splash) made the gears run just right and I wouldn't change anything for now.
The singleton Clique was never around when it would have mattered. No opinion there.
To close this out, I got enough store credit for a half-price Mystic Rainforest and won a foil Ajani Vengeant for reasons that aren't exactly clear.
Lastly, that Bant Survival deck is really good.