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If you're already going into blue, then why not just go with :u::r::g: Valakut Lands with Treasure Hunt and Seismic. This isn't the thread for blue splashed Loam builds, however. IIRC, we discussed the idea several months ago, and it detracts the "Aggro" element from the deck. Fundamentally it makes the deck more control than aggro.
Yes, I do. Blue has been my favorite color in Magic for about the last 15 years or so. However, Blue also happens to be the best color in Legacy (well, it seems all formats at the moment), so why not? At least in this deck, it's only for two spells.Quote:
No offense, but just an observation: you like blue in everything. First Rock, now this?
Interesting list. I think it looks cool, but I'm not sure if blue pulls its weight. Dark Confidant and removal are pretty good.
By the way, all our removal is Green or Red or doesn't kill artifacts. We lose to a resolved Sphinx of the Steel Wind (as narrow as that is, Iona on black or Sphinx can't be killed). I know it's a very niche observation, but Reanimator is around.
-Matt
As far as Sphinx goes, I concede that point. I can't answer everything. I rarely see Sphinx though. I'm sure if Reanimator pulls off an early Sphinx, I'm screwed. Iona on black is answerable by double Bolt or Seismic Assault, although I don't run black and I'm sure they would name Iona on red.
Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Spell Pierce, and possibly the REB's out of the sideboard, are pretty solid against Reanimator, though. Probably still a bad matchup, but again... I rarely run into Reanimator. Besides, I already accept "combo" as being a bad matchup.
Why? I'm not splashing blue for Force of Will or anything. How does Brainstorm and Intuition take away the aggro element and turn the deck into a control deck? Brainstorm itself does literally nothing to change the deck from aggro to control. Intuition can be considered a transition from aggro to control, but I'm using Intuition as a replacement for Dark Confidant. Beating for two less without Dark Confidant to set up Worm Harvest to generate 6+ 1/1 tokens a turn in a few turns seems like a fair trade-off to me (and many games, it's 10 1/1 tokens a turn). More midrangey, yes, less aggro, no.Quote:
If you're already going into blue, then why not just go with Valakut Lands with Treasure Hunt and Seismic. This isn't the thread for blue splashed Loam builds, however. IIRC, we discussed the idea several months ago, and it detracts the "Aggro" element from the deck. Fundamentally it makes the deck more control than aggro.
I fail to understand why I would need Valakut lands or Treasure Hunt if I splash blue, and I don't understand how I'm fundamentally removing the aggro component and going control, when I still run 4/4/3/1 Goyf/Crusher/Assault/Harvest, which are essentially the best aggro spells the deck has access to. I gain some additional control elements via Ruins/EE to be sure, but still.
Everyone knocks the blue splash, but nobody tries the blue splash... sad panda. FWIW, my decklist isn't using blue as a central focus, it's merely a light splash for two of the best spells available.
I wasn't meaning the comment on Sphinx as a slight against your build; On the contrary, I was just saying for Aggro-Loam in general, it's a pretty shitty state of affairs if that happens.
-Matt
Agreed.Quote:
I wasn't meaning the comment on Sphinx as a slight against your build; On the contrary, I was just saying for Aggro-Loam in general, it's a pretty shitty state of affairs if that happens.
-Matt
@Hanni: I think Intuition is sexier in this deck than Brainstorm. Academy Ruins is pretty nice too. Not that Brainstorm is a bad card obviously, but I don't know if it's an automatic four-of in this deck, especially since you're not trying to up your blue count for Force of Will.
The lack of real removal in your list does seem like a factor though, especially since your creatures get chumped pretty easily. Terravore is an option to increase your threat density, but he's so-so. I might go four color honestly... Either white for StP/ some number of Knights or black for Go for the Throat/ Bob.
Something like this Hanni? This is from April 2010, and the idea never took hold. Intuition as a enabler is costed too highly for Aggro portion, and setups inevitability (i.e. control) rather than setup quick kills.Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
Also, you posted this back last summer:
Most of the discussion resolved that the mana base was too unstable to include blue, when it didn't provide any key element of cohesion in the archetype. Green and red, naturally, and black provides a glue that ties it up with recurring card advantage. Blue will give you spot advantage without gaining you cards turn over turn. I would sooner run Jace TMS than Brainstorm in the deck, just because he's repeatable. However, at that point you can just win with Seismic Assault or Worm Harvest - the latter is easier to grab with BWish, and probably better to be in the sideboard for the reason that it's highly situational and unuseful most of the time during which you'lll draw it in the early/mid game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I don't think that this archetypes stands to gain much from filtering as it does from raw card advantage. Treasure Hunt provides that, and when paired with Valakut/Exploration is able to capitalize on it. Hence why I suggest you steer towards those cards if you're adamant about playing with blue in every deck.
@ the Lands list
Wha does that list have anything to do with the blue splash list I posted? The only similarity is Intuition, and that's where the similarities end.
The list I posted is an entirely green/red Aggro Loam shell that cuts the black splash for a blue splash, favoring Intuition over Dark Confidant. I fail to see how Intuition is too slow yet Confidant is not. Intuition sets up an I-win position for this deck as soon as it resolves, whereas Dark Confidant being I-win is far more conditional. With Mox Diamond and my stable manabase, hitting 2U is typically a non-issue.
@ my Bant list
I've tuned up that Bant list more since the last time I posted it in this thread, with the most recent list being posted in the UGB River Rock thread in N&D. That deck is pretty good; it's different than the traditional red/green based lists, but it's still a really good deck. I agree that it belongs in a different thread, and that's why I no longer post it in here. However, saying that it lacks card advantage or raw power, needs Jace or Treasure Hunt, blah blah blah is wrong, but we don't need to discuss that list in here.
You're assessment of Brainstorm is also completely off.
I've playtested with various Aggro Loam decks, from Jund to Bant, and I know what is strong and why in each of those decks. Intuition is extremely powerful in any sort of Loam shell, regardless of whether the deck is more aggro or more comtrol.
Suggesting Treasure Hunt and Valakut lands vs Intuition, in an Aggro Loam shell, simply means you are underestimating the power of Intuition. I do not know if this is because you've never tried it, or tried it in a poorly built version, but I will go into more detail as to why Treasure Hunt sucks and why Intution is powerful.
Even in a deck with 30 lands, that averages Treasure Hunt to a draw 2. Even drawing 3-4 cards with it, which would be incredibly lucky, pales in comparison to the draw 3 a turn from Loam. Don't get it twisted; Treasure Hunt only ever draws you 1 business spell, and the rest are lands. In a deck like the one I posted, with 24 lands... there is literally no relevance to suggest Treasure Hunt - just because it is also blue is pointless.
Intuition in a Loam shell is effectively a draw 3 for 3. No wait, that is also wrong. Intuition is a tutor 3 for 3. Aggro Loam uses its graveyard as an extension of its hand... it doesn't matter where Loam, Wasteland, or Worm Harvest go to, for example.
Intuition isn't just setting up Loam, its setting up the entire deck/engine. Normally, Loam by itself, without Assault or Crusher, is in dig mode until it draws a threat. Intuition sets up Worm Harvest. Through Loam, ramping to 2GGG is extremely easy. Worm Harvest tokens help to stabalize against aggro and then quickly shift you into the beatdown, and they provide a nearly impossible to deal with win condition against control.
Blue splash definitely seems do-able these days. Totally forgot that with Mental Misstep printed, you can now be fairly competent in a blue-splash Loam list even without packing FoW. Previously, blue-splash list were awkward, because we were playing blue cards for the sake of supporting FoW e.g. Ponders/Brainstorms. Now, we can just have 4 MM, 4 Intuition and be fine with just those blue cards. Brainstorm is nice in the blue-splash builds, but it is definitely not as good as Intuition.
Speaking of the deck being soft to Sphinx, I've notices that Sneak/Show and NO-Pro are also fairly unfavorable. Has anyone considered running something like Fleshbag Marauder to try and shore up those matchups? I guess Diabolic/Chaier's Edict would work just as well (or better in some narrow cases), but I like the potential interaction between Fleshbag and Volrath's Stronghold.
On the blue splash, I've toyed with the idea myself, but never bothered putting anything together because I don't have blue duals or intuitions. I think it's an idea worth exploring though. I wouldn't discount Treasure hunt entirely, just because it's a one-time Crusher effect, and Crusher filtering through even 2-3 lands to get you to a business spell is just priceless.
I do believe that bant loam is fundamentally a different deck from Aggro Loam. It already has its an established archetype thread.
further: I would not want to play less than 24 lands in a loam deck. Consider adding Maze and Nantuko Monastery. Your Knights will be very, very powerful.
I agree that Brainstorm is definitely not as good as Intuition. That's not really a fair way to evaluate Brainstorm though, since Intuition is the best spell in my deck. However, I do agree that Brainstorm isn't necessary, but the tempo loss of paying a single U in this deck is minimal compared to the huge gains in card quality and overall consistency.Quote:
Blue splash definitely seems do-able these days. Totally forgot that with Mental Misstep printed, you can now be fairly competent in a blue-splash Loam list even without packing FoW. Previously, blue-splash list were awkward, because we were playing blue cards for the sake of supporting FoW e.g. Ponders/Brainstorms. Now, we can just have 4 MM, 4 Intuition and be fine with just those blue cards. Brainstorm is nice in the blue-splash builds, but it is definitely not as good as Intuition.
Treasure Hunt is rarely going to be better than a single casting of Life from the Loam, which can also draw business spells with the cycle lands. The difference being, Treasure Hunt doesn't recur itself every turn. In a deck like 43 Lands, I can see justification for Treasure Hunt, but in Aggro Loam deck with 24 lands, the card is utter garbage.Quote:
On the blue splash, I've toyed with the idea myself, but never bothered putting anything together because I don't have blue duals or intuitions. I think it's an idea worth exploring though. I wouldn't discount Treasure hunt entirely, just because it's a one-time Crusher effect, and Crusher filtering through even 2-3 lands to get you to a business spell is just priceless.
Compare that to Intuition, which is a guarunteed tutor 3 for 3, that also sets up a recurring draw 3 for 2, and there's literally no comparison between Treasure Hunt and Intuition, for this deck.
That Bant Loam list is a bit outdated, and like I said, I know the discussion doesn't belong in here, I'm not the one who brought it back up. I posted that decklist in this thread back in 2010, and have since stopped discussing it in here. The central focus of the deck is blue, whereas the central focus of traditional Aggro Loam is R/G.Quote:
I do believe that bant loam is fundamentally a different deck from Aggro Loam. It already has its an established archetype thread.
further: I would not want to play less than 24 lands in a loam deck. Consider adding Maze and Nantuko Monastery. Your Knights will be very, very powerful.
The decklist I'm trying to discuss is the one I posted a page back, which is a traditional R/G Aggro Loam shells that drops the black splash/Dark Confidant for a blue splash/Intuition. Basically, I'm trying to open up a dicussion about why I think Intuition is a far more powerful spell for this deck than Dark Confidant is. So far, I haven't seen a whole lot of valid points for why Dark Confidant is the better choice.
Wait did I compare Treasure Hunt to Intuition somewhere?
No you didn't, I just wanted to get the message across about Treasure Hunt. You can thank rukcus for my response. Sorry dood. We are still friends, right?
Yeah it's cool. I think Intuition is just as nuts here as in Lands, I was just saying that Treasure Hunt is like extra crushings, which could be cool if there were slots available.
Did some more grinding last night, and again, I really didn't drop many games. Punishing fires is so good. Having outs to Revoker, Dark Confidant, and Qasali is pretty hot. The fact that it was recurring was even better. I love this deck so much :)
-Matt
Intuition while a good card on its own is not what this deck needs i believe. Its too slow and we already have burning wish.
For my part on MTGO i am having the most success with 4 color builds. I believe the reason is once COTV is dropped for 1cc removal spells (which speeds the deck vs aggro) you prefer having swords in your deck rather than bolt. Maverick, zoo, rock etc ...they all play goyfs and especially knights which are the reason this deck can ever lose to these strategies and good luck at fighting them with bolts. Sure bolt its better vs T1 nacatl (when you dont have mox) but swords handle it almost as good and being infinitely better in other circumstances, in mirror also.
I was so annoyed to lose to knights that i added a singleton bojuka main to help my punishing fires killing it.
My list:
4x Mox Diamond
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Countryside Crusher
3x Knight Of The Reliquary
2x Punishing Fire
3x Swords To Plowshares
1x Seismic Assault
4x Burning Wish
3x Life From The Loam
2x Vindicate
1x Gamble
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Windswept Heath
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Badlands
1x Bayou
1x Forest
3x Forgotten Cave
3x Grove Of The Burnwillows
1x Karakas
1x Maze Of Ith
1x Plateau
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Savannah
1x Taiga
2x Tranquil Thicket
3x Wasteland
SB
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Leyline Of The Void
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Life From The Loam
1x Perish
1x Shattering Spree
1x Chainer's Edict
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Worm Harvest
1x Maelstrom Pulse
I used the winning list of Baltimore for playtesting and changed what i felt underperforming accordingly. I will explain briefly those changes:
SB enlightened tutor package: Well some decks needs very specific answers and you better have them in your opening. The tutor fixes the sideborad slots you are dedicating for that and improves most of your abyssimal matchups like ANT, Dredge etc. I added 1 Seismic to maindeck so it can fetch for that when the game develops. Canonist helps also against Elves, enchantress and hivemind combo. You can adapt this sideboard by adding more singletons like chalice, nihil spellbomb, engineered plague, deed etc..
Gamble: He helps in few things but is a nice addition i believe. Early he finds loam. Midgame punishing fire and late he is (almost) demonic tutor. He is very good with singleton utility lands or to fix both parts of the grove combo.
Too slow... in relation to what? It only costs 1 more mana than Dark Confidant.Quote:
Intuition while a good card on its own is not what this deck needs i believe. Its too slow and we already have burning wish.
This is a midrange aggro/control deck, that also happens to run 4 Mox Diamonds. It's slower than Dark Confidant, yes; it costs 2U, Confidant costs 1B, and you're not getting a body.
Too slow has to be relative though. Too slow against what? Merfolk? Blade Control/Stone Blade? G/W Maverick? The deck is entirely a red/green shell. It has Lightning Bolt for early guys, it has Engineered Explosives as an early removal option, and it has Tarmogoyf as a huge wall. Seismic Assault already rapes Merfolk, Goblins, and Blade Control/Stoneblade, but you have to have Loam online for it to be truly effective. Stabalizing against aggro with a swarm of 1/1 Worm Harvest tokens is far better than hoping your Confidant will draw you additional removal, if you ask me.
I'm not claiming that the blue splash is strictly superior to straight R/G, Jund, Naya, or 4c. I'm just pointing out that the blue splash is incredibly powerful, and I don't see why everyone is so resistent to the idea. Have you even tried it, before dismissing it?
Yes. It's not as good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
You don't have Bob, so you have to run Sylvan Library to make up for his loss. Intuition is a one-shot thing and therefore not equivalent from a redundancy standpoint. But running Library puts you in the same spot as Naya, and Naya gets real removal and Knight while blue has...a tutor and Treasure Hunt? Yeah, color me not interested. If you want a tutor that adds redundancy, you're better off with Burning Wish.
Blue doesn't go in every deck, Hanni. :P
Why would you have to run Sylvan Library if you don't run Dark Confidant?
You're missing the point. Intuition is not a one-shot thing. If you were grabbing Assault/Assault/Assault, that would be one thing. That is very rarely ever the case. Intuition grabs Loam; Loam is a recurring draw 3. Why in the world would you need Sylvan Library when you can be gaining +2 CA every turn from Loam? While Loam may be slow, this entire deck is designed around Loam, so that point seems irrelevant in the first place. Besides, if Intuition only grabbed Loam, I wouldn't be advocating it. It also grabs two other spells, namely Worm Harvest, which gives the deck not only a means of card advantage via cards in hand, it directly affects the board state by allowing you to swarm the board with 1/1 tokens.
Either way, it feels like I'm beating a dead horse in here, so I'm just gonna let this one go.
I played some games with the blue splash for Intuition and I have to agree that the card is very powerful in this deck. It is probably the best card in the deck since it finds what ever you want it to be. Just pointing out that there is someone who agrees with you that the blue splash is very good and people should at least try it.