[Deck] The Gate

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Originally Posted by mujadaddy

I knew EssKay's jocular reference already, but I *AM* actually running two more basic swamps in my list. I'm currently deciding whether or not to cut one (down to 17), but I've liked the stability of ALWAYS having :b::b::b: on turn 4. Eighteen might be too many, but I felt 16 was too few.

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Right now I am actually wondering if Wasteland is worth running. I was completely sold on it before, but it seems to be causing more of a headache than anything else to other people when you consider open-handing cards that cost "BB" or "1BB". I'm wondering if that's a change worth consideration over. It is always a wrecking-ball when you start by knocking-out a Tropical Island first and then subsequently Deathmark or Innocent Blood a Noble Hierarch or other producer (which is a crippling play).

Is it worth keeping in? In my testing history, rarely has Wasteland been used as a mana source. Mid to late game, it really becomes unnecessary because you're not necessarily focused on dealing with an opponent's land foundation, but rather other threats like creatures and spells that could be worse. Wasteland does, however, cripple fragile mana foundations, so the question really is do we keep them in, or substitute them for several other sources of mana?

I *always* consider Wasteland a spell when counting a deck's mana. (That's why I went to 18 swamps. The curve being so low is the only reason you can get away with so few lands, relatively.)

Funny that you're backing off of Wasteland when I'm warming to it. Kills Maze of Ith, duals, Dark Depths, Mutas & Factories... those are either otherwise impossible to handle or pretty tough to handle with sorcery-speed removal. Since the deck slow-rolls with massive disruption at low cost, I think they fit.

Have you been perhaps playing a lot of basic-heavy decks lately?

I played a Merfolk deck that dropped Cursecatchers T1 both games; that just wrecked the hands I decided on keeping -- G1, he even got a second Cursecatcher down by like T3. On that note, I find that hands with two+ disruption elements, and preferably discard, are way better than pure aggro hands, and I try to remember to mulligan into disruption. When I *don't*, the opponent either couldn't deal with the deck anyway and the win is tighter but still forgone, or the opponent's good deck whips up on the vanilla aggro deck. The disruption elements are absolutely key to winning against good decks.

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Originally Posted by mujadaddy

I *always* consider Wasteland a spell when counting a deck's mana. (That's why I went to 18 swamps. The curve being so low is the only reason you can get away with so few lands, relatively.)

Funny that you're backing off of Wasteland when I'm warming to it. Kills Maze of Ith, duals, Dark Depths, Mutas & Factories... those are either otherwise impossible to handle or pretty tough to handle with sorcery-speed removal. Since the deck slow-rolls with massive disruption at low cost, I think they fit.

Have you been perhaps playing a lot of basic-heavy decks lately?

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Not really. Don't get me wrong: I think Wasteland is fantastic. I also feel as though it is a solid fit in this particular deck. I do, however, begin to question the fact that it produces colorless mana early in the game when you need multiple sources of black mana (at least two) to produce offense. It isn't ever really a problem, but I have actually been considering running eighteen basic lands.

Eighteen will make you feel so comfortable, you'll consider cutting to seventeen :laugh: ...just to save you some time...

I don't like wasteland, i want to hit BBB as consistantly as i can, sometimes i even have to mull a hand where waste should be a swamp.

i play 18 Swamps, 1 stronghold (great late game, combo's a little with faerie macabre in clearing yards and makes nighthawk a deadly wall) and 1 Phyrexian Tower(t3 persecutors can be pretty savage, also it can get rid of prsecutor/bob in a pinch and can ''protect'' critters you don't want to see farming or exiled)

It works pretty well, and i don't miss them besides the Deathmark Hiaracr,waste Trop play.

Spinning Darkness from the board kills those pesky factories, for free too, and people never see them coming.

I've been in the same boat lately with Deadguy running 16 lands + 3 Wastes. Sinkhole has largely fallen out of use in that list because it's only useful early and too many decks can recover too easily. Originally I cut Gatekeepers for Smother/Edict, but I'm leaning towards going the other way now.

I don't like Wasteland as a lone LD effect in general in decks, but another problem for this deck is that it makes Persecutor worse. The appeal of Abyssal Persecutor is that you only need 4 land drops to net you a 6/6. If you use wasteland before you cast it, you'll need 5 land drops instead. It's more than a difference between dropping him on turn 4 or 5. In a deck with 20 land, it means you'll have to see 15 cards. That's like turn 8, if you don't get Confidant. The 6/6 body matters less on turn 8.

I second 18 basics over the 16/4 mana base. This will net you your 4th land around card 12-13 on average, and factoring in Confidant, should give you a smoothe ride into Persecutor, Malakir and the others.

I still haven't really accepted that the Gate doesn't use Dark Ritual. t1 discard, t2 persecutor is good. t1 discard + hymn is crippling. t1 bitterblossom/confidant is pretty spiffy too. I know this is labeled as a "mid-range" deck, but that doesn't mean it can't be a damn fine explosive deck too. Ritual is good with Nantuko and Tombstalker, but that doesn't mean it's bad without.

I think cutting the wastelands is wrong. One of the reasons is simple: On my last tournament I faced an annoying maze which stopped my persecutor from beating. My second critter was a confi (no sac outlet availible at that time). I lost the game due to the fact that I cannot find a sac outlet OR a wasteland. In the other two games against that deck (which I won) my wastelands shut down his mazes. And maze is a card that is played very often in the current meta.

During the last tournament I realized that I made another mistake. Using Urborg, Tomb... On the paper it looked amazing: you can use your wastelands which are sometimes useless to generate black mana. BUT: if your only lands are swamp, urb and wasteland and your op wastes your urborg, you can`t cast gatekeeper, hymn....
the consequence is that my manabase will look like: 17 swamp + 4 wasteland

So.. if Maze is the only card that you want to waste, wouldn't a pair of Needles from the board be better?.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

Not really. Don't get me wrong: I think Wasteland is fantastic. I also feel as though it is a solid fit in this particular deck. I do, however, begin to question the fact that it produces colorless mana early in the game when you need multiple sources of black mana (at least two) to produce offense. It isn't ever really a problem, but I have actually been considering running eighteen basic lands.

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I ran this deck at grand prix columbus missing day 2 losing in the 3rd game of round 9 on a mull to five with 1 swamp. I played against many good decks and a total of 4 pros. With all that said, throughout the day wasteland just stole games all on its own. I would never cut wasteland. The potential to just screw over your oppenent or slow them down was very relevant especially if you hymned away a couple lands early on.

I will admit though, I mulliganed a real lot, probably a couple times each round and many of them due to lack of black mana. I opted to cut a deathmark for a swamp to see how that goes.

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Originally Posted by gobblor

I ran this deck at grand prix columbus missing day 2 losing in the 3rd game of round 9 on a mull to five with 1 swamp. I played against many good decks and a total of 4 pros. With all that said, throughout the day wasteland just stole games all on its own. I would never cut wasteland. The potential to just screw over your oppenent or slow them down was very relevant especially if you hymned away a couple lands early on.

I will admit though, I mulliganed a real lot, probably a couple times each round and many of them due to lack of black mana. I opted to cut a deathmark for a swamp to see how that goes.

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Congrats on your performance! That's a tough pill to swallow; to just miss the second day on a tough mulligan in the third and final game. I noticed you said you had played some professional players. Would you mind elaborating on your match-ups as well as what worked for you and what didn't?

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Originally Posted by urdjur

I don't like Wasteland as a lone LD effect in general in decks, but another problem for this deck is that it makes Persecutor worse. The appeal of Abyssal Persecutor is that you only need 4 land drops to net you a 6/6. If you use wasteland before you cast it, you'll need 5 land drops instead. It's more than a difference between dropping him on turn 4 or 5. In a deck with 20 land, it means you'll have to see 15 cards. That's like turn 8, if you don't get Confidant. The 6/6 body matters less on turn 8.

I second 18 basics over the 16/4 mana base. This will net you your 4th land around card 12-13 on average, and factoring in Confidant, should give you a smoothe ride into Persecutor, Malakir and the others.

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Those are statistics. In actual play, turn 8 is fine for Abyssal, especially if you've been discarding them and killing all their creatures and wasting their manabase. (I do like 18 swamps, though)

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Originally Posted by urdjur

I still haven't really accepted that the Gate doesn't use Dark Ritual. t1 discard, t2 persecutor is good. t1 discard + hymn is crippling. t1 bitterblossom/confidant is pretty spiffy too. I know this is labeled as a "mid-range" deck, but that doesn't mean it can't be a damn fine explosive deck too. Ritual is good with Nantuko and Tombstalker, but that doesn't mean it's bad without.

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I used to not understand, too, but I'll try to explain. It's counters and white removal. Black aggro has a good game ALREADY against decks that don't sport either of those two -- Dark Ritual becomes win-more. With cheap removal and cheap or free counters, your opponent can gain a huge leg up on you by negating your big turn 1/2 play. What's better, assuming your opponent plays creatures? Land, land, confidant, innocent blood, dark ritual as an opener, or land, land, confidant, 2x innocent blood? Always more business. The deck doesn't need to pop a Ritual to cast an Edict on the draw T1, it packs Innocent Blood to do the job -- it's an efficiency model of tempo advantage.

I played the same version as Hollywood in a small tournament, with a few changes:

-3 Deathmark, +3 Smother (Just a metagame choice)
-4 Dark Confidant, +4 Phyrexian Arena (I wasn't able to get those Confidants on time)
-1 Wasteland, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, +2 Swamp (Couldn't get the third Jitte, and I wanted more colored mana sources, so I went with 18)

The deck worked really well, winning 2-0 every match; except the one I lost, where I was unable to cast the Arenas due to a mana shortage. They certainly should've been Confidants (or maybe I didn't mulligan enough). Anyways, I'm very satisfied with it's performance, and maybe with the increase in people playing The Gate, we may make it even better.

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Originally Posted by Volrath

So.. if Maze is the only card that you want to waste, wouldn't a pair of Needles from the board be better?.

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I only named maze here as an example;) mujadaddy named other targets for it. I would never cut those wastes.

@all
Do we have any new experiences with soul spikes? I love them, together with the sp. darkness and the important dystopias in my SB;)
And the other thing I am interested: How are the SoLS from the SB? Experiences?

SoLas has been a great addition in my war against the Rock.

But Dystopia, Deathmark, gatekeeper and Blood, Nighthawk, Blossom, Dystopia have all been doing a great job in that addition.

Solas on a Nighthawk is dirty..in the good way.

Soul Spike is kind of funny vs Combo, but its cost is to great vs merfolk and zoo, where spinning darknesses shine.

Stronghold and Tower have been working wonders for me, but 6 non-black sources are not that great.

My list.

// Lands
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
15 [US] Swamp (1)
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor

// Spells
3 [10E] Deathmark
3 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [US] Duress
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [AL] Dystopia
SB: 4 [WL] Spinning Darkness
SB: 1 [MI] Phyrexian Tribute
SB: 2 [AQ] Gate to Phyrexia
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

Congrats on your performance! That's a tough pill to swallow; to just miss the second day on a tough mulligan in the third and final game. I noticed you said you had played some professional players. Would you mind elaborating on your match-ups as well as what worked for you and what didn't?

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I didn't take any notes but ill try to remember the best I can.
Goblins- This match seems pretty good for us as long as we have the removal. I won my games by innocent blood on the first turn lackey followed by some discard, a kicked gatekeeper then a nighthawk with jitte. The second game I cabal therapy for 2 warchiefs on my first turn. I sided in the spinning darkness for I think 3 death mark and a faerie macabre.

Aluren - played against Todd Anderson the first game, multiple wastes lands on his land that sacs for 2 green followed by many discard effects wins. he combos me second game then decides in the third game to board into natural order progenitus combo (bad idea) dystopia gatekeeper innocent blood all suck for him.

4c landstill - played against Owen Turtenwald I never really played this deck before this tournament so I am not sure if this matchup is supposed to be a nightmare or not but it was. I felt like I was never in the game for even a second. He drew more cards than I made him discard he had loads of removal for all my guys and then won with Jace both games.

Team america - This match was kind of akward because I had triple waste land and he had triple sink hole. At one point we both only had like 2 lands around turn 8 or so. I ended drawing more lands ( somehow with the 20 land deck) and I won with persecutor and sacced to a therapy. I came to the conclusion that their deck just doesnt have enough threats to our removal. also the faerie macabre kept him off tombstalker for a turn which was relevant.

New Horizons - Some guy from channel fireball forgot the name. Obviously we win this match I don't think much needs to be said

Zoo - Smashed him game 1 game 2 was really close and he had a sylvan library. when game three ended I had 2 waste lands in the yard and 9 swamps on the field. Somehow i managed to get flooded with 20 lands. I feel like this is a good matchup but, there were just some unfortunate things that happened on my side. I don't want to say that I didn't make any mistakes in these games but there were no major ones that I could think of at the time.

Merfolk - Played against Guadenis something or other i know he had the highest total rating or close to it going into this event. This was the final round to decide day 2. Game 1 he had 3 standstills and won because of them. Game 2 I win with a giant persecutor. Game 3 Imull to five and kept, Spinning Darkness, Cabal therapy, Innocent blood, Vampire nighthawk, Swamp.Seems good except for I never got another land. He kept a creature heavy hand as well and I was fine for awhile because of the innocent blood and spinning darkness but just couldn't get there.

U/B/R faeries - Game was very simple I had a bitterblossom both games on turn two and his win conditions appeared to be vendillion clique and man lands. I also remember having many discard

Can't remember what the other deck I played was, I want to say thopter foundry but, that might have been in a side event however I did win both games on a timely faerie macabre.

Overall I think the deck is very fun and pretty simple to play. the changes I am making are -3 deathmark +1 swamp +2 Diabolic Edict

Some questions, give me ur opinions (please only people who have played the deck)



Whats ur Experience with "not having" Leyline of the Void ?
I see MANY lists not running those - is Faery Macabre really enough :) ?

Is Gate to Phyrexia worth its Sideboard slot ? If so - explain why please.

Is a third Jitte much of an improvement? (have only tested with 2x Jitte ... )

Is Sadistic Sacrament worth to consider in the sideboard, and is it fast enough (vs Enchantress e.G.)

In my SB are always 4 leylines. For me they worked very well here in germany. In nearly every second game you have to face ichorid, loam or a survival in our current meta. And here our leylines (in addition to 2 more macabs) shine so bright.
So here leylines have to be in the SB. I never would go into a tournament without them and together with our removal they are really strong. Oh and if you don`t have them in your opening hand that should not always lead you into a mulligan. Last tournament I had no leyline in my openting 7, but 2 macabs.... they give you often enough time to topdeck a leyline and hardcast it;)

In my experience 3 md jitten are the right numer. I want to see it every game and often one jitte could be handelt by your opponent. Via Pridemage, other jitte or something else. But the second jitte in a game is that one which turns the game into your victory.

I just came home from a relatively small tourney (about 20 Player), heres my quick resumee:


// Lands
17 [ZEN] Swamp (1a)
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre

// Spells
3 [CS] Deathmark
3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [ARE] Duress
2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [M11] Deathmark
SB: 4 [M11P] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [BLA] Vendetta (Random shit to fill up)





VS White-Stax
My opponent plays White-Stax (Smokestack, Armageddon, Trinisphere, 2mana Lands and so on). I pretty much raze him.
First turn Inquisition hits Trinisphere, 2nd Turn Cabal Therapy hits Ghostly Prison. From that point on i drop threat after threat. It pretty much went perfect. Game 2 i board out the Deathmarks and Board in (the total random and useless) Pithing Needle. Well.....the game pretty much went like Game1 , not much to talk about.
2-0

VS "Mono Red Burn-alike pile of randomness ....but with Grim Lavamancer"
He hits me so hard and fast, i just had zero chance. It went something like this:
T1 -> Lava Spike / Lightning Bolt T2 -> Hellspark Elemental T3 -> Hellspark Elemental (or flashback the previous) + Spike / Bolt / Chain Lightning
G2 went almost the same. The Gate S U X versus Burn, let me tell you that :( You have a shitload of removal while ur enemy has a shitload of massage for your face.
0-2

VS NewHorizon
Game 1 i play, not having my Sideboard rearranged, meaning i DONT play my Deathmark Main -.- Well, my own fault and since im not interested in a Loss i just play without telling :/ Game 1 i loose to double Knight of the Reliquary (who were like 12/12) not seeing a single fu**ing Innocent Blood. Game 2 i board in Leyline of the Void and set the Deathmarks back in. Well my opponent pretty much plays on time, since he knows he will loose. Turns like "wait....im thinking whether to Wasteland your Wasteland or not, even though you allready have 4 other Swamps - i really needed patience. But i got the Turn Zero Leyline and can break him to the ground with that and a starting hand of 3 Deathmark ^_^
In the end (we made like 5 turns of G3) it comes down to a 1-1 and Timeout... i was pretty pissed about this. He clearly played on a timeout, but what u gonna do it. You gotta eat what you gotta eat.
1-1 Timeout/Draw

VS Goblins
Yeah. There we go. All hope is lost, now unleash the "rat - like" creatures over the cadaver -.-
Lets say it quick:
G1 T1 Vial, T2 Vial + Lackey, T3 Warchief ye well then 2 Piledriver and stuff -> Mass Swarm hit my face while i was stuck at 1 swamp.
G2 I can hold him back a bit, but eat shit on turn 5.
0-2


Some Thoughts:
Faery Macabre needs a well developed Meta. Random Tier2 Meta doesnt give a sh*t about McFae. I will cut all 3 and go for more threats instead. May be called "bad luck" -> i didnt see Reanimator/ Lands or anything i´d like to have GY Hate in my Maindeck. I will prolly try out 2 Top´s + X next time.

Deathmark is OK. Its not good but OK. I will give 'em a shot next month again - i like em, and if its just to p*ss in NewHorizons face.

Leyline of the Void is super ultra imba versus New Horizon! Seriously! You drop the Leyline, then let him discard his Krosan Grip. Then watch him squirm in front of your creatures while his Knight is a Vanilla-Bear and his Tarmo is a little fly u can squat whenever you want :D

It needs more Discard! I will go for 2 more Inquisition of Kozilek in the Sideboard. They are just AWESOME! I will maintain my maindeck split (2 Duress + 2 Inquisition) though - it played out perfect.

Hymn to Tourach played good as a 3-off. I will maintain that. Resolving 1 Hymn with all the other targeted discard was enough to get rid of what u can. My enemies Topdecking THE HELL - i can´t do nothing. I felt really stupid, when my opp Topdecked his third Swords to Plowshares, removing the THIRD Confidant :D


The Gate has potential, but my play needs to get better, and that Sideboard Thingy ,,,,, hell was i pissed -.-

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Originally Posted by sporenfrosch1411

VS "Mono Red Burn-alike pile of randomness ....but with Grim Lavamancer"
He hits me so hard and fast, i just had zero chance. It went something like this:
T1 -> Lava Spike / Lightning Bolt T2 -> Hellspark Elemental T3 -> Hellspark Elemental (or flashback the previous) + Spike / Bolt / Chain Lightning
G2 went almost the same. The Gate S U X versus Burn, let me tell you that :( You have a shitload of removal while ur enemy has a shitload of massage for your face.
0-2

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Now, don't you think that if you had Soul Spike and Spinning Darkness in the SB, it coul be a little different?
This deck really don't need Vendetta, neither 4 Faeries + 4 Leylines...