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Do you guys really like probe over preordain? I mean, I like all of its benefits, especially knowing what your opponent is on and what to play around. However, it seems to me like binning a creature is the hardest part of our combo, especially if we are cutting down to 2 griselbrands. In this respect, I realy like how preordain can dig us 3 cards deeper into the deck. I really think both need to be thouroughy tested so we can find out which is better, but so far, I'm leaning towards preordain.
You make good points. I'm leaning towards Gitaxian Probe as it doesn't hinder the speed of the deck, while Preordain slows it down (mana requirement). Playing with Preordain also means likely including a basic Island to ensure we have the resources to continue playing the cantrips.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogitoergosum
Preordain
Pros:
Digs 3 cards deep
Hides important pieces
Cons:
Costs :u: -> Islands
Gitaxian Probe
Pros:
Costs :0:
Provides information
Cons:
Only cycles
Life payment
With 2 griselbrands and 5 discard spells, how reliable is it to discard griselbrand to combo? I imagine you go for entomb most of the time. If the most consistent way of binning griselbrand is hitting one of 4 entombs then preordain is probably better.
The other option I suggest is more griselbrands and more discard spells. In theory this configuration improves the odds of drawing a winning hand. I think probe is superior to preordain here because when your hand is more likely to bin griselbrand, you can reliably combo faster and the extra information is critical if you're attempting a turn 1 or 2 kill.
Exactly. In that case i would suggest the list @ #417.Quote:
Originally Posted by walker
- 3 Silence
+ 1 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Cabal Therapy
+ 1 Griselbrand
Then the only two slots to debate are 2 Reanimate. Swap 1 for thoughtseize or exhume or just leave it tbere. Maybe a liliana to act as a sort of dodgeball. Like jace in Omniscience.dec
Yeah, can't say I agree with cutting Griselbrand. Relying more heavily on Entomb is just going to make us weaker to counters, and necessitates playing more cantrips to reliably find Entomb, so while you gain extra filtering, I doubt you're doing much for overall consistency in the long run. If that were the case, we might as well cut Goryo's Vengeance and just run more cantrips so we can find the Shallow Graves Consistently.
So, if I understand your reasoning correctly:Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
4 Griselbrand
2 Gitaxian Probe/Preordain
would be better than those number reversed? I think this makes somewhat sense, and assumes we have difficulty finding an Entombing effect. I found both cases of finding a reanimation or an entomb to be of equal concern. I'm very tempted to split the difference and play 3 Griselbrand 3 Probe this weekend.
3-4 Griselbrand also increases our chances of draw, discard grisel at end step, pass turn. This may not be ideal, but it is another way to get grisel in the yard.
I'm nervous about running 13 land with fewer than 4 Gitaxian Probe. It might be fine though. I think it doesn't really make sense to have 3 Griselbrand - it should either be 4 or 2. 3 just means we haven't tested enough. You could try going to 1 Children of Korlis to fit in one more card. Also, Tendrils could be sideboarded - the games I've seen it be relevant have all been playing through grave hate post board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Hi guys!
I been watching the thread for quite some time now and this weekend I got a big tournament that I will probebly play TinFins in since I can't find anything better or funnier to play.
I tried some with Kobys version but didn't like the Gemstones and the fact that there isn't a basic Swamp somewhere. I don't expect combo to be big enough to warrant the Silence either. I do however like the Scrubland so I might consider the Silences in the board. I also like the 4 Griselbrands, it happened more than a few times that I just drew a card and discarded a Grisel. Not particulary found of Careful Study, but I don't want just Entomb either. Ponder didn't feel that great, so if any cantrips are going to be added it's probebly Probe. Anyway, I would wish for a really soild SB. I have considered transformational but I don't think there is a good one, so how do we best fight hate? Is there any way we could find some other we to bin griselbrand?
I think if you're running the full grip of Griselbrands, Careful Study still warrants some consideration as a cantrip. I have a love/hate relationship with that card though, it seems like for every time I use it in desperation and rip a Grizzle off the top, there's another time where I just whiff and end up scrapping something I don't want to, only to find Grizzlebees staring myself in the face a turn later. It can be a pretty decent follow up to Brainstorm when you don't have a fetchland available though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I'm still a bit skeptical of Probe. Last time I goldfished a list with Probe/Therapy together it just ran through life too quickly, and it seemed like the games I won were the ones where I opened with all or most of the combo pieces anyway. This was pre-Children though, so they might be the piece that was missing from that puzzle.
Unfortunately, like .dk said our local meta is basically combo vs. control, and everyone knows the deck at this point, so it's a pretty hostile environment to test in. Maybe we'll have some extra time this weekend to grind some games outside the tournament.
The awesomeness of this deck is bringing me out of the woodwork to contribute. I wanted to test preordain v. probe, so I took a preordain list to a 12-man tournament, where I went 3-1. Here's some data for the common weal, for whatever it's worth, and my experiences with preordain.
I cut the silences since combo is limited at this particular store, played two grizzles, 4 ponders, 3 preordains, shaved a land, and switched in a basic island. Still running 1 bayou and the decays in the board.
On preordain:
I found that when I was winning, I was winning mostly in the first couple of turns before my opponent got his shit going. Longer games where I was digging tended to result in my opponent either getting his disruption online or advancing his own combo, or even just putting me on enough of a clock that forced my plans at some point. It's not that preordain never helped or was bad; just that I felt like I could be playing to the deck's strengths (i.e. explosive 'I win' draws) rather than slowing it down and trying to make it more consistent. I'm definitely going to try probe out. Beyond the speed increase, I feel the information factor for this deck is also highly significant, as sometimes you are put in a situation where you could go off but might lose if they have the right piece of disruption, and probe settles the issue, thus straight-up preventing some amount of losses.
I can also echo recent posts about tinkering with the grizzle count some more, as depending upon entomb so heavily haunted me several times during the tournament.
R1: High tide, win 2-1
g1: able to discard his counter-magic and go off turn 3.
g2: I preordain and ponder the first 2 turns. After he scolls for high tide turn 3, I feel I have to try and go off and hope he doesn't have the force, since I expect he's winning next turn. He has the force, rfgs a combo piece to it, then wins the resulting top-deck war.
g3: I mull down to 4 after some really bad hands, and get: land, cabal, grizz, shallow grave... and draw ritual t1! He doesn't have the force.
R2 stoneblade, win 2-0
g1 I discard his discard and sculpt till I can play around his conditional counters, then go off. Preordain was strong here.
g2 He keeps a bad hand and is dicking around with batterskull when I go off.
R3 glimpse affinity, win 2-1
g1 I actually fizzle after drawing all but 10 or so cards in my deck, in which 3 were petals and a chrome mox :( He kills me next turn. I probably could have played better, however.
g2 and 3: never see a canonist or gy hate (despite his mulligans) and I just win against his non-interaction.
R4 jund, lose 0-2
g1 he tears me up on the play through inquisition and thoughtseize to slow me down enough.
g2 A deathrite shaman and a crypt buy him enough time (I was going to go off turn 2) to get liliana on the field, at which point I'm hurting pretty bad.
Anyway, that's my experience and thoughts on a preordain version of the deck!
Because I know you love sick stories about even sicker plays. I present you, Tin Fins pulling it out once again:
Me vs. High Tide,
Opponent: has a sizable Storm count and a Surgical Extraction in hand (active) + 1 mystery card. All lands tapped, quite a lot of mana though.
Me: Lands + Shallow Grave. Nothing in my yard. Half my deck exiled after Tormod's Crypt had hit me earlier.
He had fizzled pretty hard halfway through the combo but eventually manages to Cunning Wish for a Brain Freeze that would easily be lethal. He puts it on the stack and starts milling me until he hits Emrakul, The Aeons Torn which he extracts. He keeps milling me with his copies of Brain Freeze.
Step 1: So what am I to do? Unfortunately, I don't know how to open *Spoilers* in this forum, so here's what i came up with, the master plan for eternal glory: Wait until he bins Griselbrand. With the remaining, lethal copies of Brain Freeze on the stack I Shallow Grave out Griselbrand. Because I'm low on life from fetching, thoughtseizing and extracting surgically, I can only proceed to draw 7 cards. After drawing I have exactly 7 cards left in my library and about 6 copies of Brain Freeze on the stack, targeting me.
Step 2: In those 7 cards I find Silence and Pull from Eternity. Oh man, that card always makes the best stories. I let two more copies of Brain Freeze resolve. With once card left in my library I cast Silence. He responds by Blue Sun's Zenithing me with his last mana for x>1.
Step 3: With about 4 copies of Brain Freeze, only a single card left in my library and a lethal Blue Sun's Zenith on the stack...*catches breath*...I cast Pull from Eternity targeting my exiled Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. As I had previously extracted his Force of Will he couldn't response but had no more non-land cards in hand anway. Emrakul shuffles back my entire library. Zenith resolves and I draw some cards then get milled for 12. Among that is a Children of Korlis which I Dark Ritual into showboat-Shallow Grave back into play.
He dies during my next attack step to an Emrakul that had been sent into exile for a long time but got pulled back from eternity to once again cause havoc among blue mages. This is my story. My name is...ok, it's getting to melodramatic at this point ;-)
F'ing BOSS. Christ, we need an archive of this shit!Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Jund matchup is pretty frustrating. When you need every card in your hand to do things, and they play 1 mana discard followed by Tarmogoyf, there's not much we can do aside from god hands. Any thoughts on improving this matchup, tactics-wise?
Couldn't you have just cast Shallow Grave in response to the Surgical Extraction? Or was he as more than 15 life?Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
How was your list and how was the SB? I feel that the biggest concern I have with the deck is sideboarding.Quote:
Originally Posted by angryshrub
How does everyone elses SB look like?
If I do, I die before Emrakul hits the grave. Remember it was his turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Meanie
My sb currently is:
2 Pull from Eternity
2 Massacre
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Silence
1 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
But that's just a mostly random pile of cards I'm currently trying out. I very often tend to side out 2 Children+Tendrils to make room for higher impact cards. Unless there's definite need to have an alternate win that doesn't involve the redzone. A card that on my way to work just popped up in my mind was Reverent Silence as an answer to Black Leyline, Rest in Peace AND Counterbalance. In the past, decks that cared about one of the former cards rarely cared about the later one; it's different with this deck though. I don't know though if Abrupt Decay might still not be the better choice despite its inability to deal with Leyline of the Void.
Thus far I really liked Silence. My by far biggest concern with this deck is still consistency and finding a way to bin Griselbrand besides Entomb and self-discard.
Nice report! Glad to see some different takes. That analysis is exactly why the cantrip I suggested is Gitaxian Probe, though. This deck tends not to do well in the long game especially post-board, so we want to aim for a consistent turn 2-4 kill. So here's how I see the different cantrips that are available:Quote:
Originally Posted by angryshrub
Brainstorm - must-include
Ponder - helps consistency and finding board cards, which can speed up the combo with protection, but also means that you're spending tempo to find pieces instead of comboing.
Preordain - here we're getting to diminishing returns on the consistency vs. tempo spectrum
Gitaxian Probe - doesn't help consistency a whole lot (although it does help), but it greatly speeds up the deck by allowing us to just go for it sometimes
Careful Study - very inconsistent, but very fast. It's the fastest cantrip because it's primarily a combo piece, but it sucks when you mulligan or don't draw Griselbrand
Beyond that we have some more expensive tutors like Lim-Dul's Vault and Intuition, but they're not exciting.
So if that's the case, how reasonable is it to run 3 Ponder, 3 Gitaxian Probe, 2 Careful Study, 4 Griselbrand? I suppose we could trim on Children and maybe move a Tendrils to the board? Alternatively we could just run the janky 3 Griselbrand and leave Tendrils in.
I haven't tested too much with only 1 Children, how often do you fizzle?
Some crazy tactics might be to plan on Chant-walking them until we can go off. Another would be to board 4 Leyline of Sanctity and laugh at their lack of Brainstorm. Neither plan seems very consistent or robust though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
That is a very solid analysis on the cantrips. Along with the comment below i started thinking back to get a configuration supporting only speed. I don't care about consistancy since i found that this deck will never get enough consistancy like regular reanimate has. This is a about going in or die trying. This is like a shotgun with cut-off barrels.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
I would always prefer keeping in 2 Children and 1 Tendrils of Agony along with the 1 Emrakul. I have found this setup to be very consistant when going off and this never (and is unlikely to get) fizzeled. If you draw 14 and can't find a way to get a hasted Emmy or a Children into play you will want to go with attack with Griselbrand and draw andother 7. It is most likely you can go for a ToA or a children and continue. I would never want to get in the situation to have to pass turn after Griselbrand connects.
To achieve this the 4 rituals and 4 lotus petals are a must. Dropping the moxen is not really a problem. I cut them game 2/3 mostly anyways.
Going back to the cantrips. decreasing the number of cantrips to include more different ones, makes the deck more subject to randomness. And thus clunkyness. I think the best option is to have 4 Therapy, 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Probes, 4 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm. The first two not only allow Griselbrand to be binned, in combination with probe you can surgically remove threats. Your opening hand is so important that you really need to make the right decision to mulligan. You need: Info, ramp, bin and reanimate. If one of them is abscent then Ponder or Brainstorm should be there. If there is missing some pieces then mulligan. If you can't combo out with protection on turn 5 then you might as well just scoop.
Because this deck is so dependant on its opening hand i do not think there is room for Leylines in the board as it will decrease the possibility to get solid opening hands. It also blocks the option to selftarget with Therapy and Thoughtseize...
So i am looking at 'free' protection again. Daze and Unmask are getting another attempt. Maybe even Pact of Negation.
So how does your current deck and SB look?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans