[Primer/Deck] High Tide

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Originally Posted by Derklord

Huh, Capsize is special? I would never play Candles without Capsize in the board.

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He's playing a Capsize instead of a Brain Freeze. There's usually both somewhere in the 'deck and the 'board.

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Originally Posted by Derklord

Doesn't really mix well with Spiral. Plus, when I have 20 cards in my graveyard I've pretty much already won.
I probably wouldn't even play it with Frantic Search (and yes, I've testet that :laugh:)...

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Fair enough, but Frantic Search is a free draw spell. Even on your non-combo turn or if you need to stop your opponent from doing something, it's absurdly good. Hymn to Tourach, in reponse Frantic Search, Flusterstorm, seems pretty good to me. It's just like Brainstorming and getting rid of the worst two cards, but you're getting even more value out of it, which is why it's banned.

@Derklord

I am a bit surprised that you consider Capsize to be widespread. Capsize is very rare in side boards because of this:

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Capsize is really win-more. It's cute, but not necessary.

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which brings me to my next point,

@astormbrewing

I have the impression you just repeat the "truth" you read somewhere. Actually, I completely disagree with Capsize being win-more in my version, which cut Brain Freeze (another thing which is against the "truth"). I gave a lot of arguments in favor of this version in the old thread (or if this one, I don't remember), but I mainly received this kind of answer... :frown:

Capsize is really ok in my opinion, just because it spares you time. Sometimes your tournament opponents play a lot around the fact that High Tide takes a lot of time to win the game. My only concern is you (Timewalk) not packing USZ in your 60s, this means you basically need double wish for the trick to be working. But well, it would just be more comfortable, it's not that capsize doesn't work without it.

On a side note, if Frantic search was legal, candelabras would now be worth 0.05$ each (or well, maybe 30$ each or so just for the rarity for collectors, but for sure people won't be selling candelabras for 200+ dollars when there is another instant untapper which also gives card quality around in the format)

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Originally Posted by TiMeWaLk

@astormbrewing

I have the impression you just repeat the "truth" you read somewhere. Actually, I completely disagree with Capsize being win-more in my version, which cut Brain Freeze (another thing which is against the "truth"). I gave a lot of arguments in favor of this version in the old thread (or if this one, I don't remember), but I mainly received this kind of answer... :frown:

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I have experience with the deck and I have played Capsize in my sideboard before. Honestly, even when I had the ability to Capsize for infinite mana, there wasn't a need because I was already on a roll toward winning with Blue Sun's Zenith anyways. I forgot I even had Capsize in my sideboard because it was unnecessary.

I haven't been in the tide forums much lately because I sold the deck both irl and on modo :(
I feel the urge coming back so I might buy in again...

@bf vs bsz
I don't think you should compare BF and BSZ. They are both cards for winning the game (where bsz also function as a draw-spell) but they are also not exactly comparable because the spells leading up to them vary a lot. I go for BF when im bottlenecked on mana i.e from candelabras beeing needled and turnabout beeing extirpated. Just chain spirals and cantrips until you have lethal storm.

@intuition
play one main. You go from 4 spirals to 9. It's that simple! Board it out per default for g2/3 for meditate.

@tops
What is the general feeling of tops now that it has been tested for a while? Is it a good enough idea to begin with? How many have you been testing? there are some diminishing returns on the card, especially when shuffled back in the deck. Counterbalance in the board?:)

Help me with this math problem (Maybe this should be in community?):

Let's say I am brainstorming with 50 cards in my deck, 23 of which are outs that make me win. I think the calculation for this is: (27/50)*(26/49)*(25/48), so my failure rate is just about 15%. However, drawing ponder, brainstorm, or preordain off of my first brainstorm might enable me to dig for an out. I only have enough mana to cast one more cantrip and one out, I have 3 brainstorms 4 ponders and 3 preordains left in my deck. I came up with this: ((27/50)*(26/49)*(25/48))*((47/50*46/49*45/48)). (I think) This would be my percent chance of not hitting one of my 23 outs and not hitting a brainstorm, around 12.3%. Of course just drawing brainstorm isn't good enough, I need the third card from the top of my deck to be one of my 23 outs (the top 2 are cards I replaced from brainstorm). It is here that I'm stuck, I don't know how to figure that out, or how to figure it out for preordain or ponder. It's been a while since I've taken stats, I don't even know if that 12.3 is correct.

Thanks!

Can we establish which decks you absolutely can't Brain Freeze for everybody?

So far, I'm pretty sure it's:
NO decks running a single Progenitus
Metalworker decks with a lone Blightsteel Collosus
Some OmniTell buils with the one Emrakul
Sneak & Show decks that have four Emrakul

I think that's it. That covers some Elves lists, NO Bant, Forge decks, and all Show & Tell decks. Anything I missed people play in the format?

Also, as an extra-closet casey sidenote: if you're going to fizzle and only have enough for Brain Freeze, if you have enough to Cunning Wish as well, you can Extract with the trigger on the stack. I think?

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Originally Posted by elijah

Can we establish which decks you absolutely can't Brain Freeze for everybody?

So far, I'm pretty sure it's:
NO decks running a single Progenitus
Metalworker decks with a lone Blightsteel Collosus
Some OmniTell buils with the one Emrakul
Sneak & Show decks that have four Emrakul

I think that's it. That covers some Elves lists, NO Bant, Forge decks, and all Show & Tell decks. Anything I missed people play in the format?

Also, as an extra-closet casey sidenote: if you're going to fizzle and only have enough for Brain Freeze, if you have enough to Cunning Wish as well, you can Extract with the trigger on the stack. I think?

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Decks with Progenitus and Blightsteel are impossible to kill with Brain Freeze on the spot because they never hit the graveyard and you have to wait 2 turns for them to draw cards, which is plenty of time for them to win.

Decks with 4 or 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn however are not impossible to mill if you set it up correctly. You do need a high enough storm count but if you do, if Emrakul, the Aeons Torn hits the graveyard, you can cast Cunning Wish and wish for a Surgical Extraction and extract them out so you can continue milling them in peace.

Now 12-post decks are tricky to mill and you probably won't want to put the effort into it and should just Blue Sun's Zenith them. It is however possible to mill them with Brain Freeze, although that requires either a lot of work or insane luck. One way to do it is to Surgically Extract a titan each time in response to the trigger and casting Time Spiral to go through everything all over again. Eventually, you will have extracted all of them and can mill them with a minimum of three Time Spirals. Another way is to wish for a Ravenous Trap if by really dumb luck all 3 titans are put into the graveyard with a single Brain Freeze.

The Titans don't cycle back into the deck, but the Emrakul and the Kozileks do.

You would need an arbitrarily large storm count to mill them after Emrakul hits the 'yard because I'm pretty sure the trigger still resolves (anybody actually know for sure?) and it's probably much safer and less resource intensive to just USZ them to death.

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Decks with Progenitus and Blightsteel are impossible to kill with Brain Freeze on the spot because they never hit the graveyard and you have to wait 2 turns for them to draw cards, which is plenty of time for them to win.

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It's funny you mention Extraction and Trap in response, but not BSZ. You should be able to BSZ them for a really small amount to make it lethal in addition to BF.

@Myself: deleted for idiot content

@Cave
You should actually read what the text on Progenitus and Blightsteel Colossus says.

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Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn

It's funny you mention Extraction and Trap in response, but not BSZ. You should be able to BSZ them for a really small amount to make it lethal in addition to BF.

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I have never actually thought of doing that. Thanks for the idea!!

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Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn

@Cave
You should actually read what the text on Progenitus and Blightsteel Colossus says.

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Well, i'm used to emrakul, my bad.

Yeah BSZ is cool in those cases.

SCG Milwaukee was a bust, going at it again locally, this time SCG Seattle, haven't top 8'd in like the past 6 Legacy SCG Attempts. But gotten close a couple times.

-edit- Just got back from SCG Seattle, got 28th this time, got knocked out by Counterbalance & RUG Delver as my 2 losses, the RUG match was probably the most unwinnable one overall, didn't even come down to a game 3. Got a 3rd loss final round against patriot stoneforge whatever you wanna call it. A fizzle didn't help either, went to game 3 and I threw that one away.

Next attempt, SCG Los Angeles, 2 weeks.

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Originally Posted by feline

-edit- the RUG match was probably the most unwinnable one overall

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What was the issue with Canadian? I find that the main problem with this matchup is when they have fast clock; say, t1 delver blind flip at t2, or mongoose + multiple bolts to fast threshold. Otherwise they are kinda slow and you can buy enough time to drop 5-6 lands and evade at least one taxing counter; in fact i'm pretty happy to see them playing a goyf against me because that's their slowest option. Once you resolve spiral it is pretty much good game as their dazes and pierces do nothing, so you're actually playing against 4 fows and nothing else.

If your list has remained the same, I can see a particular issue with them being able to stifle your untappers, but you can also -1 candelabra +1 turnabout post side, and you can also go for the brainfreeze plan if they already spent one stifle on candelabra and you lack the mana to USZ.

Well yeah, maybe I sound too much positive about this but from my experience it is far from unwinnable. I discussed with a RUG player post match once, and I figured out that he kept a hand with mongoose + stifle + wasteland G1, planning to go hard denial and get to threshold very early, and that's basically a mulligan to 4 against my list.

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Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn

It's funny you mention Extraction and Trap in response, but not BSZ. You should be able to BSZ them for a really small amount to make it lethal in addition to BF.

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Only if Emrakul is at the very bottom of their deck; remember the shuffle effect is placed on the stack above any storm copies that have yet to resolve.

Cannot you guys read?

Emrakul != Progenitus/Blightsteel Colossus.

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Originally Posted by Cave

What was the issue with Canadian? I find that the main problem with this matchup is when they have fast clock; say, t1 delver blind flip at t2, or mongoose + multiple bolts to fast threshold. Otherwise they are kinda slow and you can buy enough time to drop 5-6 lands and evade at least one taxing counter; in fact i'm pretty happy to see them playing a goyf against me because that's their slowest option. Once you resolve spiral it is pretty much good game as their dazes and pierces do nothing, so you're actually playing against 4 fows and nothing else.

If your list has remained the same, I can see a particular issue with them being able to stifle your untappers, but you can also -1 candelabra +1 turnabout post side, and you can also go for the brainfreeze plan if they already spent one stifle on candelabra and you lack the mana to USZ.

Well yeah, maybe I sound too much positive about this but from my experience it is far from unwinnable. I discussed with a RUG player post match once, and I figured out that he kept a hand with mongoose + stifle + wasteland G1, planning to go hard denial and get to threshold very early, and that's basically a mulligan to 4 against my list.

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I meant most unwinnable as in, out of the 9 matches through out the day. As far as RUG itself goes, it's back and forth, it's not the most favorable match up if they turn 1 a creature followed by holding a bunch of counter magic, but it's not the most unfavorable either 8-)

Feline, can you share your list?