[Deck] Aluren

Trinisphere could be considered the scourge of Aluren. That's why Nonex recommended dealing with it by bouncing, countering or even sweeping the board.
The real danger of it is that by the time you can deal with it, they are casting armageddon and sealing the game.
IMHO, sphere is the most dangerous artifact, more than chalice set at 1 or pithing needle.

Many people have abandoned the deck and now play more "consistent" choices. My question would be if Aluren can still perform okay in our metas. I know there's so much debate with extirpate and speed / consistancy of the deck. Cost of the recruiter version is another reason many people take into account to not even try the deck.
Comments?

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Originally Posted by Davetradint

Trinisphere could be considered the scourge of Aluren. That's why Nonex recommended dealing with it by bouncing, countering or even sweeping the board.
The real danger of it is that by the time you can deal with it, they are casting Armageddon and sealing the game.
IMHO, sphere is the most dangerous artifact, more than chalice set at 1 or pithing needle.

Many people have abandoned the deck and now play more "consistent" choices. My question would be if Aluren can still perform okay in our metas. I know there's so much debate with extirpate and speed / consistency of the deck. Cost of the recruiter version is another reason many people take into account to not even try the deck.
Comments?

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I think that it all depends what your meta game is to be honest. I know in NY it would be rather hard to play unless you have a heavy control aspect in it to make sure everything gets online. With ANT (and all similar versions) going off on the first three turns and Thresh being stable by turn two and standstill being able to balance everything on the opening hand it would be hard indeed. Extirpate is a nasty little card but from what I have seen isn't really all that played. The cards to really fear are: Chalice set at 2, apparently Trinisphere, Counter-Top online, and the biggest killer of the deck is Krosan Grip.

I feel that the Wish version could prove to be more stable against these decks mostly because you can always find an answer in the tool box board. I really do feel you on the recruiter version which is just dumb how expensive they have gotten. I really wish I got into the Portal series more. lol

If anything deckcheck.net seems to hold all of the versions that are being played. The only difference I have seem so far are complete overhauls and each one is virtually different from each other save one or two with a couple differences. Thats all I really got.

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Originally Posted by exaltedgod

The cards to really fear are: Chalice set at 2, apparently Trinisphere, Counter-Top online, and the biggest killer of the deck is Krosan Grip.

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Krosan Grip is easy to answer via Cabal Therapy or playing all creatures in your hand one in response to the other, without passing priority, just after resolving Aluren. Chalice and Trinisphere are problematic, but they don't seal the game by themselves since you eventually draw the answer to get rid of them. The biggest killer is Counter-Top because it can stop your development while protecting itself from your removal.

You wont be able to announce anything thing if they say "I am K-Gripping your Aluren." Split Second is a bitch. Granted you might draw an answer but by that time I am sure they will have an answer as well. Thast why I am saying a person will have to cram pack the deck with control to make sure anything that could even be a considered anykind of a threat can be dealt with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by exaltedgod

You wont be able to announce anything thing if they say "I am K-Gripping your Aluren." Split Second is a bitch.

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When Aluren resolves you as the active player retain priority. For your opponent to play a SS spell, she still needs priority which you don't pass until after you played all the creatures in your hand.

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Originally Posted by DireLemming

When Aluren resolves you as the active player retain priority. For your opponent to play a SS spell, she still needs priority which you don't pass until after you played all the creatures in your hand.

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Maybe I'm confused, but this means you can safely play all critters from your hand and resolve triggered abilities but you don't get more critters. We cannot go off because they get the chance to play their spells. So if I'm right, at least, we can play plenty of creatures but not go off...

Intuition for 3x Cabal T. is a nice move, so you can try to scr*w their hand twice if you have a wall or a goyf online. Aproblem would be faced if Counterbalance were online too...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Davetradint

Maybe I'm confused, but this means you can safely play all critters from your hand and resolve triggered abilities but you don't get more critters. We cannot go off because they get the chance to play their spells. So if I'm right, at least, we can play plenty of creatures but not go off...

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Sort off. It goes like this

you: put Aluren on the stack (=play)
you: pass priority
opp: pass priority
[Aluren resolves (=comes into play), you get priority]
you: put Goyf on the stack, "and without passing priority"
you: put MoW on the stack, "and without passing priority"
you: put Raven on the stack
you: pass priority
opp: put Grip on the stack targeting Aluren
opp: pass priority
you: :(
you: pass priority
[Grip resolves, you get priority]
you: pass priority
opp: pass priority
[Raven resolves, it's CiP ability goes to stack, you get priority]
you: pass priority
opp: pass priority
[Raven's CiP ability resolves, you get priority]
you: pass priority
opp: pass priority
[MoW resolves, it's CiP ability goes to stack, you choose Raven as the target, you get priority]
you: pass priority
opp: pass priority
[MoW's CiP ability resolves, you get priority]
you: pass priority
opp: pass priority
[Goyf resolves]

As a convenient shortcut, you implicitly pass priority after each play. Therefore you need to explicitly inform you opponent when you wish to retain priority for several consecutive plays.

I've been playing Aluren since Toad's first post on TMD with his Aluren build. Usually I don't post here but since this Thread has been getting some activity lately I'd like to show you my latest build that has done fairly well last weekend (~25 players) and in testing. I might want to play this in a medium sized tournament on saturday so maybe you guys have some further input for me.

4 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

4 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
1 Underground Sea

2 Forest
2 Island
(21 Lands)

4 Aluren
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

4 Intuition
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
(24 Spells)

4 Wall of Roots

2 Eternal Witness
1 Sedraxis Alchemist

4 Raven Familiar
3 Cavern Harpy
1 Parasitic Strix
(15 Creatures)

There are definately some odd choices here I should explain:

Top was also suggested a few days ago and it has been awesome. For some time I had Ponder in this slot but Top was clearly superior in testing against controllish decks (against non-disruptive decks we probably already have a good matchup). Top is very good under a Standstill, we might win against Landstill anyways but Top really makes sure we can sculp out our hand, find those therapies etc. It also fills the 2cc slot pretty good (tempo-wise) which is kind of slim since I run no goyfs.

I usually was insecure whether I should play Wall of Roots or Blossoms but with Top it's clearly Wall of Roots since it synergizes pretty well. (Turn 2 WoR + Top and spinning it in the opponents turn is pretty strong. And mid-combo you might drop a Top and use it with 2 Walls.) Wall of Roots has an easier time blocking goyfs as well.

I ran no goyfs because it seems to me that all my worse matchups are trained to handle goyfs easily so I decided to strengthen the control route instead. After all I used the slots for Top, not sure if that's exactly control..
A point might be made for playing only 3 Intuitions then but I think it's a must counter and can also search for 2xWitness 1xSedraxis against counterbalance. The blue permanent required for Sedraxis was not an issue since I only need the Sedraxis when I wanted to combo out and that means I have a Raven in hand.
I don't really miss man-o-wars because with the old I had to keep then in my hand for the combo a lot anyways.
The single Strix was usually enough in the maindeck, against aggro/combo I boarded in a second one. Maybe two in the maindeck are better but probably not required in a control-heavy metagame.

The numbers I'm not sure about are the 4-of Intuition and the 1-of Strix. Also I don't really know how good the witnesses are but if I cut them down I might need to adjust the amount of Strix/Sedraxis (or cut the latter). Chain of Vapor is worth a discussion as well: sometimes I cast them eot on a counterbalance and they put Top on their library and I can combo out.. but if they have enough mana open they are pretty useless. (Obviously they help a lot to combo out usually but in those matchups different choices might be just as good)

I hope you guys share some testing results and advice now. I also have some questions to you guys:

How do you combat CB post-board? Grip or rather Deed? And how many fetchlands are optimal for Top? (not aluren specific maybe)
Did someone already test Volrath's Stronghold which was suggested as well?

I think some boarding plans in general might be interesting since the maindeck is already pretty tight..

@welten: great post to step from the shadows of lurking!

I strongly feel 4 Intuitions are the right choice. They smooth everything nicely and are a must counter for anything relying on counterspells for disruption.

Furthermore I swapped 1 land for Life from the Loam and another for Volrath's Stronghold which makes Intuition even more tempting (see ITF). This achieves several things:

1) it strengthens my game against mana denial.

2) it improves mana consistency. Let's face it, getting to 4 mana in a timely manner can sometimes be an issue even without any help from the opponent According to my Monte-Carlo simulation, 20 lands (9 of which are fetches) with LftL is roughly equivalent to 23 lands in terms of getting to 4 mana as soon as possible.

3) strengthens my game against discard.

4) Turns Raven's drawback (echo) into an asset by making it reusable. In a way Stronghold effectively acts as ~1/2 of a Raven. Consequently I can use the Raven slightly more aggressively to dig and/or block before going off.

5) strengthens my game against control.

6) allows me to run only 1 Witness and still be able to Intuition for anything (albeit slower).

7) Better library manipulation: dredging + Stronghold or Witness makes for pseudo tutoring. Reusing fetches means more land thinning. You can shuffle or dredge away Brainstorm crap (even better with Top).

With Strix, Chain is even better as you can randomly kill without Harpy (probably more relevant for versions running Goyf).

I used to strongly prefer Deed over Grip, but I am not so sure anymore. The problem is Grip. Hoping for 5 mana to pop it immediately is a somewhat daring proposition, especially since CB tends to restrict my ability to dig.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by welten

Chain of Vapor is worth a discussion as well: sometimes I cast them eot on a counterbalance and they put Top on their library and I can combo out.. but if they have enough mana open they are pretty useless.

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First of all, I haven't played Aluren too much till today but I noticed one thing.
The three most problematic cards for this deck are Trinisphere, Counterbalance and Chalice (@2) - although the last one is negligible.

Beside the obvious problem of Chain of Vapor just being countered CB easily, is that it will cost 3 mana anyway under Trinisphere, so I figured you could also just run Rushing River which can bounce an additional target.

Am I missing an important aspect of Chain of Vapor?

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Originally Posted by FredMaster

Am I missing an important aspect of Chain of Vapor?

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Yes, it allows you to massively dig with Raven (provided you have another creature out) when searching for Harpy (or are at 1 life and can't use it). Also, if you play Strix, you can use it for what a storm combo player would term "mini-Tendrils" (i.e. going off, doing some damage but not actually killing your opponent).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FredMaster

Beside the obvious problem of Chain of Vapor just being countered CB easily, is that it will cost 3 mana anyway under Trinisphere, so I figured you could also just run Rushing River which can bounce an additional target.

Am I missing an important aspect of Chain of Vapor?

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The important aspect of Chain is that it is not only a solution against Trinisphere and Chalice (and sometimes Counterbalance by forcing them to put their Sensei on top of their library) but it instead is also a very strong combo piece after resolving Aluren.
(You can bounce a Raven and copy Chain to bounce another of your own creatures, replaying the Raven in response. After that you resolve and copy chain again targeting the Raven, etc. Netting you a couple of Raven triggers is usually enough to find more combo pieces. This is because Chain is copied when it resolves and not when it's announced.)

However in the matchups where we have to race the opponent like burn, combo or similar, I often don't have a spare U mana when I have to combo out. Also Chain is only useful against Counterbalance if the opponent is a bit short on mana or taps out. Besides that it streamlines an already consistent combo a lot which may or may not be worth it. So I started testing Wipe Away but I am not sure if giving up consistency for better control matchups is really worth it. Don't get me wrong Chain is definately awesome against random decks but we should usually beat those.. so how much do we want to give up just to be better in the not-so-good matchup department?

Do you guys think the Natural Order Progenitus combo might work in this deck as an alternate win condition if you don't get an Aluren?

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

Do you guys think the Natural Order Progenitus combo might work in this deck as an alternate win condition if you don't get an Aluren?

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I don't see anything that would make Aluren particularly suitable for it. I would sooner go for Stifle-Nought as a secondary combo than this (that's not to say that is a direction I would advocate).

If we can't combo, we should have access to another way to victory: direct damage or attacking with creatures.
That's why some players add goyfs to their lists (Aluren). It's not a wall that provides mana, but it can handle opp goyfs and also attack. I have won many games that were already lost, thanks to them.
Adding stifle-nought can change drastically the decklist. I don't see that fitting into the deck.

Has anyone tried to add Counterbalance + Top?
I see some of you tried Top and you liked it, please anyone share some comments!

I'm testing 3 Counterbalance SB against storm combo and discard decks, since I don't run enough blue cards to support FoW anymore. It's ok against the second but looks slow against the first. My next step will be 2 Counterbalance and 4 Chalice of the Void.

HI friends, Im testing aluren.

This is my build:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
6 [ALA] Forest (1)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Bayou
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
3 [CHK] Island (3)
1 [US] Swamp (2)

// Creatures
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
3 [MI] Wall of Roots
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [CNF] Parasitic Strix
1 [CNF] Sedraxis Alchemist
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [PS] Cavern Harpy
4 [UL] Raven Familiar
1 [ST] Man-o'-War

// Spells
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TE] Aluren
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Intuition
2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
1 [SC] Brain Freeze

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FUT] Tombstalker
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [AQ] Energy Flux
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid

I prefer to play tarmo maindeck because i can win with it if my oppo drop my aluren. Freeze is the third win condition and I like play it.

Is Counter Top really playable as an alt in here? Like that would be ubber sweet. I think I might have to go and draft up a listing... lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DireLemming

4 Intuitions...furthermore I swapped 1 land for Life from the Loam and another for Volrath's Stronghold

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This has got to be the first intelligent thing i have heard in a long time. Full boat of intuitions with loam/stronghold/witness sexyness sounds damn good. Really helps the control MU.

@ Sensei's top: I think this is a solid option, especially with loam/4 intuition. I think 3 may be too many, but 2-3 sounds about right. However, dropping goyfs for tops sounds horrible.

@ Counter-top: aluren may go the way of landstill here, because we run alot of 3-4cc cards. A deck like thresh is running almost exclusively in the 0-2 cc range, which is why they play it so effectively.

@welton's list: I got to say that dropping man-o-wars and goyfs for set-up spells doesn't seem like a great idea. It helps the control match-up, but the aggro MU suffers alot. I do like the list though, i plan on testing that list with these changes:

(slightly diff mana base, but still 21 lands)
-1 land
-1 top
-1 wall
+1 volrath's stronghold
+1 man-o-war
+1 loam

I think you need atleast 2 man-o-wars to combo off consistantly (1 sedraxis, 1 man), even with running strix. 3 tops seems like overkill with 4 intuition, 4 brainstorm, 4 raven (+witness/stronghold to recur), and loam. Your sideboard needs to be heavy combo/aggro hate if you plan on pulling this off...

@ hontz: Good call the pick up of the Stronghold is definately needed for a more consistant win.

Has anyone thought about using a more wish board via Living Wish? I know back in the day I wished for a Maggot Carrior as the kill and other goodies to help ensure my success. I really dislike the new Conflux cards that rely on each other. Also having an "infinite life" is another version of an "out." Maybe Auriok Champion?