[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

Some of the things you read about Delver in this thread is preposterous. Delver is a Legacy powerhouse that consistently makes top 8s across the globe. You can't possibly expect to draw a Decay for every Delver your opponents play, especially in a deck with barely any manipulation when you consider that Delver decks are jam packed with it. Even if the case was reversed and we were the ones with all the manipulation the problem would persist because the questions are always better than the answers. Playing against Delver is simple: You see it, you remove it. You see a Show n Tell, you discard it or counter it. These cards win games. You don't want to see them on the other side of the table.

You deal with Pyromancer and Swiftspear the same way you handle a Goyf or a Delver: you get it off the table asap. Cards like StP and Innocent Blood are some of our best answers to those cards aside from the obvious 4 Abrupt Decays. I know some of you haven't caught on yet, but playing less than 4 Decays in any Nic Fit deck in any given Legacy metagame containing Miracles and Delver decks is plain wrong. No 3/1 Decay/Pulse splits or any other snowflake combination. Just play four Decays and the rest comes in after.

And don't worry about Swiftspear Kevin, it is not better than Delver. Just keep calm and remove it like everything else or lay down a speed bump.

This being said, I went 3-1 in a weekly tournament today:

0-2 vs Miracles

Bad mullugans and dead cards lose g1. Okay mulligan g2 but a shortage of lands allows him to ramp into entreat.

2-1 vs Omnishow

Teeg isn't enough for G1. No Leylines for G2 and Teeg gets there. G3 Teeg takes it with SoFaI.

2-0 vs Team America

G1 I get BSkull and Sigarda after we exchange removal and discard. G2 I get Kruphix, Library, and Lily to lock the board.

2-1 vs Burn

I lose G1 to a small miscalculation. Take G2 with Kruphix and Ooze. G3 opponent mulls to 5 and I have StP T1, Decay T2, and Liliana T3 into SFM for a Jitte'd Kruphix.

What I like about this deck is that it is a Delver and Burn deck predator. Plenty of fast disruption and life gain will keep you in the race until you can play something they do not have the means to handle.

I am fairly satisfied with the combo matchup preboard and postboard since it is pretty close to most blue decks. Our disruption is generally slower but more impactful.

Miracles is the boogeyman here as it has always been for most Explorer deck. Game 1 is definitely unfavorable but g2 is manageable. Postboard matches are all about combining various hate cards such as Sylvan Library, Needle, Choke, SoFaI, etc... Entreat can always come out of nowhere and rain on your parade though. I personally don't like these odds but I believe anticipating lots of Delver and Burn at the GP is more important.

Lots of talk here lately - Thumbs up!

@Removal: I don't think that 1cc Removal is needed or even better than decay. If they start the game, T1 Delver go, than you go T1 Removal, chances are high you see a daze/fow. The next Turn Delver flip and you eat 3 (which is ok, just a bolt). Than with 2 Mana you can play cc1 Removal against Daze, but you can also see Spell Pierce and FoW as an answer. You can't win a counterwar because we don't play counters - so you need more solid spells and draw counter which some nice bombs (and we have enough^^).

If you wan't to kill a Delver use Decay as removal number 1! Decay is fast enough to kill delver on sight, or only take 3 and kill it next turn. If you managed to get some more turns and mana you can play enough stuff, so the only problem are early delvers with protection (the common fear).

As Qweerios already mentioned, if you fear the delver-thing, make sure you get enough Decays and/or play the Punishing Fire Build.

Bolts, Swords, Pulse even Deed won't save you here. If the game goes on (and we survived), the opponent might be lacking in counters or only have dead soft counters - now removal like bolt, swords, deed etc. are live and it doesn't matter which we use to kill enemy creatures. Thanks to Treasure Cruise, Delver Decks tends to fire every spell as soon as possible, because they can refuel fast and safe...The problem is to survive and remove early threats. Decay (or Punishing + Grove) answer it.

Against UR Delver, the blue Nacatle is the only real "thing". I know that Swiftspear can grow really scary, but against him we can use any ground unit and are in a good shape with Veteran Explorer (because UR Delver don't have any swords). Explorer can also hold the ground against Young Pyromancer if they don't want to trigger the land engine.

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Speaking about BUG Pod (not in favour lately - maybe it is becaused "blue" is also more hatet now with red blast, chokes etc.)

My last build with some thoughts:

//Creatures//
1 Grave Titan
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Baleful Strix
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer

//Instants//
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

//Sorceries//
4 Cabal Therapy

//Enchantments//
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Pernicious Deed

//Artifacts//
3 Birthing Pod

//Lands//
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower

//Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
1 Memoricide
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Abrupt Decay

What is new?:

Besides the creature config, BUG Pod has 2 real flex slots, sometimes you will see 1 Zenith, or Trinket Mage Tools, or more Creatures etc.

Against an aggressiv Delver Meta, i think 2 Abrupt Decay are the best spells you can get here. BUG Pods seems to be light on removal, but remember that you also have some Creatures to kill some Stuff from your enemy (and also Brainstorm to find something relevant).

Next swap was -1 Sower of Temptation +1 Venser: I liked Sower, but with all the fast decks with a lot of removal, Sower won't work most of the time. Venser is a catch all from the sideboard and a flexible choice against various problems. You can even try to bounce a Delver to get minimum of two extra turns (the must play and flip him). The real deal with Sower was against Show&Tell, but Venser is also not so bad here.

Sadly i also cutted the beloved Glen Elendra Archmage. She is a beast against Miracles, but against most combo decks you won't win game 1 and an active Archmage is only a dream here. With all the early pressure around, i would chose 1 Obstinate Baloth here. He is very resilient and 4 lifegain isn't to bad. Now you can build an "lifeline" with Finks into Baloth into Trag :)

Doomwake Giant is against D&T, TNN and all the little token swarms you will see. The giant is also resilient enough and synergies well with recurring nightmare (and deed).

Sideboard:

Force is only a valid choice if lots of combo running around (which means Nic Fit will struggle) - and the "blue Allstar" won't safe you, because every solid combo player remember countless of situations against decks with counters (and a faster clock etc.). So Force is an illusion in Nic Fit and will only shine if you face T1 glasscanon combo decks (Belcher etc.).

After playing with Force, i found out, the best way against combo with BUG Pod is some early disruption followed by permanent disruption (because we don't have a real clock). So lot of discard, extraction etc and than clique, venser, archmage and memoricide.

Against UR Delver (and other aggressiv decks) i included one more Decay and also one more Ooze. The slime will see more than enough creatures, because BUG Pod creatures are ready to die and your opponent will shot something down for sure. Ooze also acts as an answer against Treasure Cruise. Thanks to Strix, you opponent will have to use some bolts against our creatures, so maybe you can get 1 Ooze online (that is the reason i want 2 of them in BUG Pod).

Punishing Fire is actually worse than 1 mana removal against Delver because it runs straight into Daze and you have no guarantee of finding a Grove in time. I playtested heavily with Punishing Grove and Decays in a RUGb Cascade deck lately and PFire had to make way for Bolt because I was losing to Delver too much. Not having an answer to a T1 Mom can be devastating too.

Playing junk midrange or junk nicfit I'm honestly pretty confident with the miracles matchup.

An early sylvan library basically wins the game. Keep them off top in the mid game with timely decays or pithing needles. Preemptively play deed. Gaddock teeg essentially locks them out if they've used some swords already, they are top decking or you have SoLaS, and then we have all the other swords, and thragtusk and Sigarda.

Honestly it seems like a nightmare for them, not us. It's never easy, and you always feel like you're on the edge but I'm convinced we are favoured. It's why I'm so happy playing the deck, Delver and Miracles are the most popular decks, by a wide margin, and we have very strong game against both of them.

@ Qweerios: I know you've been contemplating a Deathrite Shaman/Dryad Arbor based list, so I have to ask what your thoughts are regarding Scryb Ranger in any amount main? I've been goldfishing with it in Maverick (yes, I know it's a sin to goldfish with any non-combo deck :P), and whenever I can either go T1 Fetch -> Forest -> Deathrite Shaman or T1 Forest -> Green Sun's Zenith -> Dryad Arbor, following up with a T2 Scryb Ranger or T2 Green Sun's Zenith -> Scryb Ranger is really damn sweet, even if it doesn't actually ramp us. Combine this with the fact that it prot walls Delver itself (forcing them to either remove it or give us time to find an answer), and I'm hooked on it. Maybe I'm mistaken though, hence my question to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

Some of the things you read about Delver in this thread is preposterous. Delver is a Legacy powerhouse that consistently makes top 8s across the globe. You can't possibly expect to draw a Decay for every Delver your opponents play, especially in a deck with barely any manipulation when you consider that Delver decks are jam packed with it. Even if the case was reversed and we were the ones with all the manipulation the problem would persist because the questions are always better than the answers. Playing against Delver is simple: You see it, you remove it. You see a Show n Tell, you discard it or counter it. These cards win games. You don't want to see them on the other side of the table.

You deal with Pyromancer and Swiftspear the same way you handle a Goyf or a Delver: you get it off the table asap. Cards like StP and Innocent Blood are some of our best answers to those cards aside from the obvious 4 Abrupt Decays. I know some of you haven't caught on yet, but playing less than 4 Decays in any Nic Fit deck in any given Legacy metagame containing Miracles and Delver decks is plain wrong. No 3/1 Decay/Pulse splits or any other snowflake combination. Just play four Decays and the rest comes in after.

And don't worry about Swiftspear Kevin, it is not better than Delver. Just keep calm and remove it like everything else or lay down a speed bump.

This being said, I went 3-1 in a weekly tournament today:

0-2 vs Miracles

Bad mullugans and dead cards lose g1. Okay mulligan g2 but a shortage of lands allows him to ramp into entreat.

2-1 vs Omnishow

Teeg isn't enough for G1. No Leylines for G2 and Teeg gets there. G3 Teeg takes it with SoFaI.

2-0 vs Team America

G1 I get BSkull and Sigarda after we exchange removal and discard. G2 I get Kruphix, Library, and Lily to lock the board.

2-1 vs Burn

I lose G1 to a small miscalculation. Take G2 with Kruphix and Ooze. G3 opponent mulls to 5 and I have StP T1, Decay T2, and Liliana T3 into SFM for a Jitte'd Kruphix.

What I like about this deck is that it is a Delver and Burn deck predator. Plenty of fast disruption and life gain will keep you in the race until you can play something they do not have the means to handle.

I am fairly satisfied with the combo matchup preboard and postboard since it is pretty close to most blue decks. Our disruption is generally slower but more impactful.

Miracles is the boogeyman here as it has always been for most Explorer deck. Game 1 is definitely unfavorable but g2 is manageable. Postboard matches are all about combining various hate cards such as Sylvan Library, Needle, Choke, SoFaI, etc... Entreat can always come out of nowhere and rain on your parade though. I personally don't like these odds but I believe anticipating lots of Delver and Burn at the GP is more important.

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What's your current sideboard?

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Here's some data from last night:

I played approx 8 games vs UR Delver (stock list from the last scg top 8). These were all game 1s -- we had to proxy the delver deck and I kind of ran out of spare sleeves for the sideboard, plus I'm substantially less worried about that matchup postboard.

First off all, there was only one game in which I was black-screwed. All of the other games, I had perfect mana. I will note here that, since I currently only own 3 Badlands and had to proxy one, I had the 4th Badlands in my opening hand I think 3 of those games. Previously, that would have been the 2nd Stomping Ground, and I would not have had a black source in all of those games.

The first couple of games, my opponent had a t1 Swiftspear and I did not have immediate removal. He did a bunch of damage to me, but nothing incredibly nutty...mostly a bunch of 3s, a couple of 4s, a couple of 2s. On average, Taylor was roughly a delver. There was one outlier where I got Bolted, Bolted, Forked Bolt your blocker + 1 to you, swing for 4 (11 damage in one turn total).

I won 7 of 8 games. The one game I lost went grindy which was good, but Top showed triple land over and over again until I died. Variance. I'm also not convinced that I made all of the right calls earlier in the game...I might've been able to save a Wish to win later.

Obstinate Baloth was insane. Being a 4/4 for 4 is a Big Deal. I kind of wish that I had room for a second copy, honestly.

Lightning Bolt is a 2-drop. Sorcery-speed Bolt on t2 with Daze mana up was a fantastic line that annoyed my opponent to no end. UR Delver plays a very limited amount of permission, and half of it can be played around by just sandbagging for 1 turn. While the deck can be explosive when the stars align, it honestly seemed kind of unstable playing vs it. It needs 1 of its 16 lands in its opening hand, and it needs 1 of its 8 1-drops in its opening hand. The percentages for both of these things happening is not that great, and the deck does NOT mulligan well.

Having the removal felt pretty fantastic. I had one hand where I had lands + Top + Decay + Bolt and I just won. No contest.

Dualcaster was very strong. I took a Brainstorm (with a fetch in play!!!), which felt great, and I threatened to copy his Lightning Bolt to kill his Delver, which sadly got Forced....but, oh well. Something that did come up once was when I tried to Dualcast his Ponder, but he had a maindeck Pyroblast for the Ponder copy, which is slightly awkward, but I mean, he was going to have that Pyroblast for basically anything else that I would have wanted to Dualcast, so...oh well. Just something we need to accept can happen. I still have yet to copy a Cruise, but I did Dualcast my own Cabal Therapy and absolutely shred his hand.

The "oh we can chump block the Taylor" assumption is incorrect. That deck plays a lot of burn and has no problem clearing the way. Forked Bolt is very good at clearing out errant Vets / Wood Elves / etc.

Only saw Thoughtseize once. It was okay, but nothing special one way or the other. It's definitely a sideboard out here.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Dualcaster Mage
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Primeval Titan

4 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift
2 Thoughtseize

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Taiga
1 Stomping Ground
4 Badlands
4 Bayou
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Slaughter Games
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Massacre
1 Scapeshift
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm

That's the current list. I'm not sure if the Pyroblast is actually correct in the sideboard -- I had one open slot and was like ehhh, why not. That slot can probably be something better.

I'm pretty happy with the 2/2 bolts/decays split maindeck. I did think about having the other 2 Decays main over the Bolts just to max out on Decays, but I think that the mana constraints are things and even though I've been having less trouble with the black sources, I still want to have a red kill spell. Bolt does have a few extra applications beyond Decay, so I think that the split is fine.

To be frank, if I had the space by some miracle, I would like to run with 4 Bolt 4 Decay because that seems ridiculously good right now for a removal suite. There's no way that I'm going to have that much room available basically every, though -- I'll have to content myself with 2 Bolt, 2 REB, 4 Decay postboard...slightly annoying because REB doesn't shoot down Taylor or Young Pyro, but still worth it because of other applications vs Show and Tell, Miracles, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

This leads the deck to this next iteration, (I love building decks, so thanks for the input) 61 cards is fine.

4 Verd Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh flats
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savanah
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volraths Stronghold
22

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Greensun's Zenith
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Scooze
1 Teeg
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda
1 Thragtusk
4 SFM
1 Jitte
1 Sword of F&I
1 Batterskull

4 Cabal therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Abzan Charm
2 Sylvan Library

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Hello,

I hadn't enough time to make a detailed reponse.
So, here we go:

I like this list far better:

1) The mana base is perfect, I'm counting:
- 14 white sources
- 15 green sources (arbor not included)
- 14 black sources

2) Creature list:

That is what I call a great maverickish tool box. Here are a couple of fine tuning elements to be taken into consideration:

a) I would cut Thragtusk since you play Rhino.

My reasoning behind is that I found after a lot of games with a lot of Abzan lists (Pod, non Pod, SFM, non SFM etc...) that in such meta you cannot afford playing more than 3 huge bombs MD.
Why ? You just don't want to have one rotting in your opening seven. Thragtusk is a beast, but Thragtusk is CMC 5 or 6 if you GSZ for it. I've died numerous games before I could GSZ or just cast him.
I would stick with Rhino, Sigarda & Batterskull. You still have access to 4 DRS, 1 Ooze and 1 Rhino to gain some life back which is already plenty.

b) Fighting back graveyard strategy & blue powerful "delve & draw" effects (be it draws or put in your hand: DTT)

This paragraph should be interesting for the whole thread:

As a GSZ deck, without library manipulation, I have come back to an "on demand" must answer GSZable creature that does not require any mana to sink in. Because on 10 of 40 matches against UR Delver, I lost because I was not able to mess enough with its graveyard to prevent him from resolving multiple TC (one on each turn after the first TC is resolved...that's how ridiculous this card can be) and you can't mull good hands against UR Delver just because you don't have a chains of M, canonist or a SoL in hands.

Dryad Militant should really be a 1-of in your sideboard strategy. He is faster than both DRS & Ooze by a large margin. Usually, you bait with T1/T2 DRS to draw a removal and GSZ for it T2/T3. It is even better when you have access to a discard spell to clear the path in case your opponent has another spot removal. If it sticks, it means opponent's graveyard will only start to grow again once he gets rid of it.

"Sadly", it brings collateral damage on dredge & canadian ***** & other delve strategies.

3) Other spells

a) 4 AD

Staple at this very moment and Qweerios has properly stated about why anyone playing G/B/x should only be playing it as a 4-of.

b) 4 Cabal Therapy

I have been pondering a lot lately about keeping the whole 4-of as I do think that the 4 DRS/2 Vet is one (if not the) of the best configuration at the moment for Abzan Fit.
It does happen from time to time that I wish my cabal therapy was a thoughtseize, instead.
The challenge is to determine whether or not the life loss could be even more an issue than a missing blind call on a therapy.

c) 2 Toxic Deluge

According to your list, I would have chosen the same. But I cannot blame anyone for picking pernicious deed as long as it is coherent with his whole list. Playing with SFM, DRS, equipments is a nonbo with pernicious to say the least. I would even say that as long as you are not playing with a walker shell (multiple Liliana to name it) Toxic Deluge > Pernicious deed.

d) Abzan charm

Interesting choice of yours.
3-CMC for a charm is unfortunately a lot (during Arian's Thune fit list testing, whenever I had the charm in hand I wished it was something else because of its cost), and that's why I dismissed it, eventually.
Nevertheless, I am a big fan of combat tricks, so I spent time finding a good replacement for this card. Here are some interesting options & conclusions I have come to, so far:

- Vindicate: 3-CMC, sorcery speed, does not enable combat tricks but has a broader application. Its main pros is its ability to "stone rain" some fool, kill walker & creature that you cannot hit with AD. But still even though I love stone raining people we are not fast enough to really profit such an effect & I found the 3-CMC sorcery speed to be such a pain...

- ZP (zealous persecution): 2-CMC, instant, but not on color (generally you fetch for swamp & forest first except if you have SFM), enable combat tricks, one sided wrath against a board full of X/1 but nonetheless has a narrow application.

- GC (golgari charm): 2-CMC on color, instant, enable combat tricks, friendly fire wrath against a board full of X/1, kill any enchantment, but still has a narrow application.

- FC (Funeral charm): 1-CMC on color, instant, enable tricks (combat, discard), spot removal on a X/1.

Eventually, FC won hands down. I've never expected this card to be such a house, here are use cases where it has shined, during testing:

- Killed unflipped delver, Young pyromancer, Bob, inkmoth, Mom.
- Made an ANT player scooped to it when I played it in response to its last accel spell (was a Dark ritual) before he got to play Infernal tutor.
- Has prevented a lethal entreat from killing me (opponent was hellbent, played it in response to the miracle trigger on a sensei activation at the end of my turn)
- Got rid of an annoying mongoose with combat tricks
- Few time walks (nice draw step, bro...Bin your card please !)
- At least it was somehow a shock to the face.
- It also kills our own veteran if you need too. (Happens once.)

For now, I would suggest something like 2 CT /2 TS /2 FC (replacing Thragtusk & Abzan charm) main deck.

EDIT: I know you are "high" on the phyrexian tower. But anyway, I could see cutting it and make room for a finks, a 2nd karakas or what have you (in mind) as long as you stay =< 3-CMC. S&T will always be a serious contender even if a lot of non legacy players will be on the UR Delver bandwagon, some of them will still play S&T just for the raw power of such a deck.

EDIT2: you could also play a Courser or a Selvala.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Wood Elves
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

3 Abrupt Decay

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Mountain
4 Taiga
1 Stomping Ground
4 Badlands
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

Sideboard:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Slaughter Games
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Pyroclasm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Massacre
1 ???
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Scapeshift


This is where I am for the GP right now. Huntmaster is good sometimes but quite situational. Still a threat I'd like to have access to, but Baloth is much better vs UR delver and still reasonable in a lot of matchups. I'm passing on Dualcasters because I've never played with the card and I'd rather stick with what I know instead of learning new lines on the fly. I think this maindeck is very well set up against the expected field. Will likely default to the 3rd copy of Thoughtseize in the sideboard unless something better presents itself.

Thoughts, suggestions and criticisms are welcome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

Cards like StP and Innocent Blood are some of our best answers to those cards aside from the obvious 4 Abrupt Decays. I know some of you haven't caught on yet, but playing less than 4 Decays in any Nic Fit deck in any given Legacy metagame containing Miracles and Delver decks is plain wrong. No 3/1 Decay/Pulse splits or any other snowflake combination. Just play four Decays and the rest comes in after.

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I agree with this-I can't imagine running less than four Abrupt Decays right now. With Delver public enemy number one and Miracles number two, Abrupt Decay is by far the deck's best removal option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Lightning Bolt is a 2-drop. Sorcery-speed Bolt on t2 with Daze mana up was a fantastic line that annoyed my opponent to no end. UR Delver plays a very limited amount of permission, and half of it can be played around by just sandbagging for 1 turn.

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Here's the question I've been debating. If you want to run a removal spell in addition to Abrupt Decay (and your sweeper of choice) in Jund colors, should it be Innocent Blood, Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt, or Sudden Shock? Each one has different appeal. If it weren't for Daze, I'd love to play Magma Jet, but I think it's pretty clearly worse then the rest of the options.

Innocent Blood: Very good with Explorer, makes Deathrite Shaman hands awkward. Completely blank against Miracles, worse than point removal against Elves.
Bolt: Most efficient burn spell.
Forked Bolt: Synergistic with Explorer (kill Explorer and unflipped Delvers or Pyromancers), 2-for-1 potential, but does not always kill Monastery Swiftspear and is sorcery speed.
Sudden Shock: Uncounterable, instant speed, kills everything except Goyfs.

Which of these would you use to supplement Abrupt Decay?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AngryTroll

Which of these would you use to supplement Abrupt Decay?

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The perfect answer might lay somewhere "in between".
If I were to choose, I'd pick Sudden shock for reasons listed below:

1) Kill infect deck like no other say removal can -> uncounterable, cannot be messed up with pump up cards.
2) Kill delver, swiftblade and Mom or the Guy she protects (revoker to name it)-> same reason as above
3) 2 or 3 damages do not count in Scapeshift (or Jund Fit control) as you want your opponent to be at 18 life at least.

If you ask me, split second is a VERY thing in legacy and certainly outweights the 2 CMC & the only 2 damages by a very fair margin.

Hope it helps you to make an appropriate choice.

@EpicLevelCommoner,

Scryb Ranger is weak by itself. Cards that don't do anything by themselves generally win you the game on the spot when paired with another. Scryb was good in the Maverick erra because the mirrors were common and whoever had the most Mom activations and flyers could charge up their Jitte and win the game. It also double up as Wasteland protection, KotR Wasteland machine gun, Delver blocker, and mana dork when coupled with some of the 20 other cards maverick already plays. Blocking Delver without an active Mom is not really an argument in its favor. So unless you have 20 ish cards to support it and a particular common scenario that it enables you to win, I suggest leaving Scryb Ranger at home.

@Arianrhod,

I played a slightly different list yesterday with a solid sideboard. I spent the last week preparing for GP and trying different decks. In the end, my desire to fulfill my self-promise of playing Nic Fit at a major event once (something akin to a pilgrimage to mecca) is prevailing over my sense of reason telling me to play 4 Brainstorm, 4 FoW, and 3 TC/DTT then build something around it. Blue is so damn good... I might regret my choice but given the statistical chances that I win the GP are still slim with even the best possible deck, I will at least secure some form of satisfaction upon my departure from Jersey. I ended up moving SoFaI and Ooze to the SB and moving a 3rd Thoughtseize and a 3rd StP from the SB to the main.


Sideboard
1 Karakas
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Choke


Against Miracles:
-3 StP, -4 Therapy, -1 Explorer, -1 Jitte
+1 Surgical, +1 TS, +2 Duress, +2 Needles, +1 SoFaI, +1 Choke, +1 Karakas

Of course Choke is really strong against Miracles and I'd love to play another copy but the card is simply too narrow. There aren't that many slow blue decks out there...

@Everyone playing ScapeWish,

I know I'm not an authority on this but I have given this deck plenty of chances in the past and recent past. I love the different roles the deck can take. Unfortunately, the deck is simply not viable in its current form because of the manabase and its lack of manipulation. ScapeWish is the kind of deck that will commonly lose to a single Wasteland on a key color. If the deck is to be restricted on color availability and mana fragility (AKA: low fetchland count, high nonbasic count), it has to at least use the proper color concentration. If red is your most available (or tied for most available) color, most of your cards must be cast-able with red mana. If you can only gain access to 12 black sources, black has to remain a splash so that you have to play the least black cards possible. I suggest the strict essentials such as Cabal Therapy, Abrupt Decay, and Deluge/Pulse/Slaughter Games out of the wish board. With that being said, Basic lands are not optimal. They only offer 1 color and enable Explorer triggers so I suggest you keep you basic land count to a minimum in order to fully utilize however many triggers you need and expect during a game.

-Nature's Lore might be one of the best fixers, enablers, and ramps you can dream of. It will grab any basic forest, Taiga, or Bayou and put it into play untapped. Most importantly, this card will grab your Bayous and put them into play untapped. You could do T1 Explorer/Therapy and T2 Nature's Lore for Bayou into Explorer/Therapy then have 2 mana open for, say, Burning Wish, Pyroclasm, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Sylvan Library, etc. You would then have 6 mana by T3 and this is where this deck wants to be. This card makes ScapeWish faster and more consistent.

-Play Sylvan Library! This card is and has always been the green Treasure Cruise. Blue decks wish they could play Library but they have to settle for Jace instead. This card is exponentially better than Top because it has no upkeep cost and will convert extra life points into additional cards. Against control decks, Library will turn every StP and board stall into a fountain of cards. Top is also horrible without any shuffling abilities, and this deck tends to pack less than the others.

-Lose pernicious Deed. This card is outdated and clunky. Since the printing of Decay, Deluge, and the recent resurgence of Pyroclasm (seriously, Pyroclasm is insane right now), Deed has no place to be. All of those board clearing options are simply more practical. Pyroclasm is better than ever for this deck too because it triggers Explorer, wipes most boards, can act as relatively cheap removal, is easily one-sided, and the cherry on top: it's red.

-Play Red Elemental Blasts! This card is better now than ever and should have always been a part of this deck's core. Blue decks are the most rampant and our game against non-blue decks is already extremely good. It kills Delver, counters Treasure Cruise, and protects our combo all at once! Scapeshift has the luxury of being a combo that can be cast with 2-3 mana open, rendering Daze and Spell Pierce ineffective. If FoW is all that is standing between a direct win, I think Red Blast is mandatory. Once again the cherry on top: it's red.

-Play Dryad arbor. Turning GSZ into a 1 mana land ramp is extremely good on its own. Having the ability to transform a fetchland into a Cabal Therapy is also very good. This card will win you games and give you plays where you otherwise wouldn't so just play it despite its obvious anti-synergy with sweepers.

-Play Courser of Kruphix. He is one of the best midrange GSZ target you can hope for. It will gain you way more life in this deck than any other, give you topdeck manipulation, and give you free cards from time to time. Don't even get me started with his relationship with Sylvan Library...

@Qweerios i hope you will do well enough at GP and i respect any Nic Fit disscusion (because the deck has a high variance between all builds), but i can't agree with your thoughts about Scapeshift cards.

-Deed: It seems Deed lost a little of its power and it is totally right that most other sweepers are faster (and sometimes this will matter!). I remember, that my first Punishing builds in the past also "dismissed" the common "Play 3-4 Deeds!" argument. I was totally fine with 2 Deeds and 1-2 Jund Charms, but it also was a time without True-Name Nemesis, Miracle etc.

Pyroclasm (and Toxic Deluge) are very good against UR Delver, Elfes and D&T - so it makes sense to discuss them compared to deed. On the other side, Deed is one key card against Miracle, it will win you more than enough random matchups (and at GP you will face them day 1) and will also work against the decks mentioned above. Sure deed isn't fast enough in any situation and all Nic Fit Players remember situations short on mana etc.

Junk/Abzan/Gbw Fit will work without deed and it is ok with a lower manacurve, arbor etc. But i strongly believe that every other Nic Fit build will profit from deed.

For Scapeshift: This build is short on common removal (maybe we see a shift as already discussed), so between creature bombs and ramp into combo mode you will need sweepers. It doesn't matter what you will face, deed get all the stuff and this deck will struggle in various situation if Pyroclasm and/or Toxic will be played over Deed. Hell even BUG Pod uses Deed and sometimes you also blow out your own Pod if it is needed.

-with Deed, Sylvan Library will not work so good. Sure it is very good vs Miracle (because they won't pressure your life early enough), but against aggressiv delver decks you need every life point, so drawing cards will become a dream. Sylvan Library is totally fine in Junk/Abzan Fit if they cut deed, but in every other build (ok BUG has Brainstorm) Sensei's Diving Top is a stable. The biggest issuse with Sylvan Library is, that it doesn't do anything the turn it comes into play and is also worst in multiplies. Topdecked top means: Dig for 3 or more (if you have Zenith, Fetch etc.) cards the turn it comes into play - you will face troublesome situations which need an immediate reply - Diving Top may save you (and it also comes with the ability to hide cards and instant draw RED, Surgical, Decay etc.)

-Arbor is ok without Deed, but as i already mentioned, most Nic Fit version should stay with deed so Arbor isn't the best idea, which also leads to one more worst topdeck or bad card in hand. As an Elves Player i like Arbor, but besides Junk/Abzan Fit i don't see it will work good enough here.

Hi,

Wondering if anyone has seen the list Gerard Fabriano posted on Starcity the other day? It looks quite interesting - he has an updated version in the comments section which looks like this:

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Zuran Orb

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Trinket Mage
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Brainstorm
2 Crop Rotation
2 Dig Through Time

2 Titania, Protector of Argoth

1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karn Liberated

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Innocent Blood
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Thoughtseize

2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp

1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Polluted Delta
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

1 Academy Ruins
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

1 Dark Depths


Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
2 Notion Thief
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Toxic Deluge

I haven't tested the list yet. One possible alteration would be to cut some number of Innocent Blood for Abrupt Decay, but as has been mentioned in the discussion lately a turn one answer to Delver is of course nice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MD.Ghost

Pyroclasm (and Toxic Deluge) are very good against UR Delver, Elfes and D&T - so it makes sense to discuss them compared to deed. On the other side, Deed is one key card against Miracle, it will win you more than enough random matchups (and at GP you will face them day 1) and will also work against the decks mentioned above. Sure deed isn't fast enough in any situation and all Nic Fit Players remember situations short on mana etc.

There is no deying that Deed is better than Deluge or Pyroclasm against Miracles. However, sweepers are not meant to be good against Miracles, they are meant to be good against fair decks and swarm decks. Those decks in this day and age don't give you the luxury to tap out at 4 mana to play Deed through Daze and then hope it makes it to the next turn so you can activate it to sweep the board. Deed is extremely slow and mana intensive. I don't think you realize how giving your opponent an extra turn and spending twice the amount of mana for the same effect will likely cost you more than a few life points.

Junk/Abzan/Gbw Fit will work without deed and it is ok with a lower manacurve, arbor etc. But i strongly believe that every other Nic Fit build will profit from deed.

Actually, every deck benefits from a lower curve. In fact, every Nic Fit deck would profit by having its cards played faster and more regularly.

For Scapeshift: This build is short on common removal (maybe we see a shift as already discussed), so between creature bombs and ramp into combo mode you will need sweepers. It doesn't matter what you will face, deed get all the stuff and this deck will struggle in various situation if Pyroclasm and/or Toxic will be played over Deed. Hell even BUG Pod uses Deed and sometimes you also blow out your own Pod if it is needed.

I don't care if there is 4 Delver and 4 Goyfs on the field if I can cast a Scapeshift for lethal. Scapewish packs 4 Explorers, a GSZ package designed to ramp/use ramp, 4 Burnings Wish that can grab you sweepers, and 3 Scapeshifts that win the game instantly if you have 6-7 lands. I can't believe that this deck "needs" to have sweepers to win because that's not how it wins. BUG Pod loses a lot of board position to Deed. It is in effect a bad deck with a lot of cost-inefficient cards that don't pull their weight. Sure it doesn't feel too bad Deeding half your side of the board when your side of the board sucks. The problem is, it shouldn't suck in the first place. Stop using Deed as crutches.

-with Deed, Sylvan Library will not work so good. Sure it is very good vs Miracle (because they won't pressure your life early enough), but against aggressiv delver decks you need every life point, so drawing cards will become a dream. Sylvan Library is totally fine in Junk/Abzan Fit if they cut deed, but in every other build (ok BUG has Brainstorm) Sensei's Diving Top is a stable. The biggest issuse with Sylvan Library is, that it doesn't do anything the turn it comes into play and is also worst in multiplies. Topdecked top means: Dig for 3 or more (if you have Zenith, Fetch etc.) cards the turn it comes into play - you will face troublesome situations which need an immediate reply - Diving Top may save you (and it also comes with the ability to hide cards and instant draw RED, Surgical, Decay etc.)

Once again, what do you need this card for in the first place? Manipulation is best in topdeck mode and against control decks where games go long. Library is leagues beyond Top in the long game because it actually gives you additional cards. You also have to take into account that Top, while more flexible, taxes your mana. It might seem as though Top is a cantrip because you can draw a card at any time and forfeit your next draw, but in reality, Top virtually destroys one of your lands when it comes into play because you have to spent at least 1 mana per turn to filter your draws. In many cases, drawing an extra card is well worth 4 life. Against all Delver decks that pack only 4 Bolts as direct damage cards I will often pay 4-12 life to draw 1-3 cards. Drawing extra cards is a virtual shuffler when you have none and helps you find what you need the following turn. Just ask yourself, at what point is life worth cards against an aggressive Delver deck? Would you keep a 0 card hand if it meant you could start the game with 48 life? Would you start with 12 life if it meant you could have 2 more cards? Sometimes the game develops in a way where you want that choice.

Not many people know this or tend to forget, but I have been playing Nic Fit since day 1. Part of my contributions to the Nic Fit thread was to demonstrate the merits of playing more than 2 Deeds (mandatory 3-4) and to adopt Sensei's Divining Top as at least a 3-of (people played 1-2). Along with many other techs you take for granted as part of your Nic Fit core that I had to push through criticism and backwards arguments. Nic Fit isn't what it used to be two years ago. We used to play like a Miracles deck with removal instead of counters and won with a big GSZ instead of Entreat. Times change and we cannot afford to play this game plan anymore. Show n Tell is a real threat now that they have Grisselbrand, Miracles is above and beyond what Nic Fit was in terms of control, Delver decks can refuel from sweepers and have become even faster. You either adapt or die.

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Been playing a lot of Punishing Jund Fit lately. Mostly against my buddy on D&T as well as against solidarity postboard for reference. I am originally a combo play but this deck is just so nasty. If I manage to win game 1 and sandbag groves/punishing fire, the reaction of my opponent is always the same disappointment. So I played in a small 12 man at a local shop, or less, it was cut to top 4.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scooze
1 E wit
1 Finks
1 Reclam Sage
2 Huntmaster
1 thrun
1 thragtusk
1 Prime time
1 Broodmate (14 gsz/creature)

4 GSZ
4 Therapy
3 P Fire
3 Lily
3 decay
3 Deed
3 Top
1 Pulse (24 spells) - 38

2 Tomb (working on it)
1 Taiga
1 Badland
4 verdant
2 bloodstained
1 kessig
3 swamp
3 forest
1 mountain
4 Groves (22 lands, 7 basics)
Sb was not good

3 seize
3 red blast
2 games
2 surgical
1 golgari charm
1 deluge
1 batterskull
1 back to nature (enchantress player was there)*
1 Ancient Grudge (MUD player)*

*=may just become engineered plague(elves, ur delver, d/t, etc)

Round 1: Kyle, running MUD

Game 1: I get to start cabal therapy blindly and see metalworker and friends. He goes furnace into welder go. I rip vetty and take his worker. He searches and grimaces, siting he doesn’t play basics. Got’em! I play my land and pass with decay up. He plays city into top and metalworker so I decay his top to put it on top. I draw another vetty and play deed, blow it for 2 getting his welder, furnace and metalworker. I get lands, he searches, shuffles top away, life tilts and concedes the next turn to prime time grabbing kwr 
Game 2: went about the same way but he mulled to 5 and deed did work again.
1-0(2-0)

Round 2: my buddy/ride Matt, ur delver
Game 1: was incredibly grindy but he got there with 2 cruises, 3 delvers, 4 bolts and 3 pyros. FML
Game2: I had punishing fire and 2 groves, he did not come out of the gate screaming and I put him down like the dog he is for playing delver.
Game 3: this was another grind and we went to time, I showed him my top 3 which were thrun-decay-deed and he said wow too bad I play so slow. #saltroadpatrol
1-0-1(3-1-1)

Round 3: Byron, UR delver
Game 1: another grinder man although highlight is turn 2 therapy for 2x cruise :D, long game that I cast huntmaster 3 times and each time he let out the most audibly sad sigh. Tusk got there.
Game 2: How can I ever beat delver, delver, daze, daze, force?!@ I die, fast.
Game 3: he mulls to 5, I apologize after therapy naming delver hits delver and shows forked bolt, 3x volcanic LOL. I draw 3 decays and he can never climb out from under thrun/kwr.
2-0-1(5-2-1)

Round 4: Kendra, Dark Maverick

Game 1: natural draw of her one of’s stage and depths, I die, no lillys, no tears.
Game 2: Deed blows out 3x mom, thalia, jitte <3 Tusk catches 2 stp and prime time swings multiple times
Game 3: top decks for days but top fixes it for me where she is just hoping for help, I get back to back gsz for broodmate and then prime time. We went big and wrecked em.
3-0-1(7-3-1) 25 credit or so for split 

So I did go undefeated but I really wanted that win man, should have 4-0’d
Overall, Love the deck, it is so fun and I did have some great match ups. I love the numbers atm and you have no idea how good it feels to gsz 4 thinking you gotta find a decay for the jitte on board but while thumbing through your deck you come across a card yelling “PUT ME IN COACH! I GOT THIS” Reclamation sage, basedgod.

I am open to questions. Chose PJF because friend had the lillys and groves so simple and Prime Time is my favorite card (Waifu?) Against the fair decks, punishing fire online is a death sentence. They already have deed to worry about but then groves comes in and they get mad, haha. 10 sb spots seems necessary and the 5 flex are fine. Loved batterskull, hes is amazing but you already knew that.
Will not play bug in the near future, aint got the funds for that expensive AF landbase, still gotta get bayous for cheap, dayum

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hanzalot

Hi,
Wondering if anyone has seen the list Gerard Fabriano posted on Starcity the other day? It looks quite interesting - he has an updated version in the comments section which looks like this:

---

Admittedly, I haven't tested his list, but it looks sub-par, to be nice. Blue seems completely unwarranted, and karn is just bad. I think a better place to start would be based around knight of the reliquary and a toolbox of lands (wasteland, depths, maze, karakas, bojuko...etc). Throw in courser of kruphix, and standard junk cards (sfm package, sigarda, rhino). Between knight, wastelands (waste your own stuff), and fetches, I don't see a problem getting titania activations. Might even be worth running dryad arbor for shenanigans.

I imagine this might be a little too cute, and a standard junk list would be more reliable though.

@ MD.Ghost on BUG Pod

How good do you think that the deck is post cruise? I have more or less given up on it for now. Earlier fair deck matchups were very good and combo slightly bad. It seems to me that cruise has to considerably detract from the fair deck matchups. I'd still expect them to be somewhat positive, but a lot less than before. Is this your experience too? I have looked at the possibility of of incorporating cruise or dig in the deck, but that seems just about impossible.

I think that Force is an important part of getting to that lock down end game scenario in the first place. Are you able to get to that point without the Forces? I think that Force is one of the main reasons for being blue in the first place (as well as Brainstorm, of course). Is there still sufficient reason to be BUG and not GWB without it?

I like the Baloth versus the more burn centred meta now.


On a more general note concerning the new meta, how think that our discard spells have been impacted by the new draw spells? I haven't been casting too many Cabal Therapies myself post khans, but I would guess that they have become worse.

Cant really speak for the BUG version, but Cabal Therapy seems like the least impacted discard spell from TC. Hymn has fallen from it's high horse in the tier 1 bracket, that's for sure. Yes, it does somewhat fuel your opponent's next delve, but it is still beter than letting them have that FoW/BS/TC in their hand. Vs non-UR vet ex gives you a huge advantage, so i'd run cabal even if just for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Svknoe

@ MD.Ghost on BUG Pod

How good do you think that the deck is post cruise? I have more or less given up on it for now. Earlier fair deck matchups were very good and combo slightly bad. It seems to me that cruise has to considerably detract from the fair deck matchups. I'd still expect them to be somewhat positive, but a lot less than before. Is this your experience too? I have looked at the possibility of of incorporating cruise or dig in the deck, but that seems just about impossible.

I think that Force is an important part of getting to that lock down end game scenario in the first place. Are you able to get to that point without the Forces? I think that Force is one of the main reasons for being blue in the first place (as well as Brainstorm, of course). Is there still sufficient reason to be BUG and not GWB without it?

I like the Baloth versus the more burn centred meta now.

On a more general note concerning the new meta, how think that our discard spells have been impacted by the new draw spells? I haven't been casting too many Cabal Therapies myself post khans, but I would guess that they have become worse.

---

Played BUG Pod only online lately, so not enough data here for a universal agreement. The good news are, that BUG Pod creatures will work against UR Delver, because they tend to play without stifle (and without Waste and Pierce main - which is good) and every creature will get a trigger. Explorer shines vs Ground Attacks and 3-4 Deathrite are also not the worst creature you can pack against delve. From my games i can say, that most of BUG Pod Creatures will die against all the red removal, but every creature shine here. UR Delver will remove Explorer, Deathrite, Strix etc. so they have a lot to do. A Recurring Nightmare Loop will win, a Pod Chain will win. It is also good, that Shriekmaw and Redcap can kill any creature they play.

The biggest plus is, that UR Delver can't attack your mana base (no stifle, no waste, no swords for explorer), it really helps to get some stuff online.

Treasure Cruise itself (remember Deathrites + Ooze as a "better than nothing" answer) can be really powerfull. Good news are, that most players tend to use every spell they can to fill the graveyard as fast as possible. This will lead to enough "mistakes", especially against uncommon deck choices like nic fit. Sometimes (as Arianhood mentioned) Treasure Cruise will draw a "perfect 3", but they will also draw lands, dazes and not very powerfull stuff for mid-lategame action. I faced countless Cruises that don't do anything against my Nic Fit stuff if i managed to get enough lands online. Sure, they will draw many cards, but the cards tends to be "meh" if you break the aggressiv game plan. Treasure Cruise (against Nic Fit) is a lot more annoying with UWR Delver or other Blade-Midrange Stuff. Sure you can outgrind such decks because you have more trumps, but TNN and or Batterskull are more powerfull topdecks than a Swiftspear without a bunch of spells to stack.

The real bad news are, that Discard isn't so good with a meta full of "ok i lost a card in hand, but i will draw a bunch of cards later". On the other side, besides Maindeck Therapy for Explorer, we don't use much discard against fast Delver (TC) decks. Most additional discard is against combo, so it is still usefull.

@FoW: As i mentioned, FoW seems like a trap. It is very good against T1 Combo decks, but lost a lot of its power in a "slowly" Shell like Nic Fit, without additional stuff like Counterbalance + Top. After some tournaments with FoW against various combo decks, i decided to trust in more discard and other disruption spells. It seems ok, if my opponent try to play around a FoW and i can attack him with other stuff. Afterall, it is a meta decision. If i face a lot of fast combo, the first question always is: Should i play Nic Fit?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Svknoe

@ MD.Ghost on BUG Pod

How good do you think that the deck is post cruise? I have more or less given up on it for now. Earlier fair deck matchups were very good and combo slightly bad. It seems to me that cruise has to considerably detract from the fair deck matchups. I'd still expect them to be somewhat positive, but a lot less than before. Is this your experience too? I have looked at the possibility of of incorporating cruise or dig in the deck, but that seems just about impossible.

I think that Force is an important part of getting to that lock down end game scenario in the first place. Are you able to get to that point without the Forces? I think that Force is one of the main reasons for being blue in the first place (as well as Brainstorm, of course). Is there still sufficient reason to be BUG and not GWB without it?

I like the Baloth versus the more burn centred meta now.


On a more general note concerning the new meta, how think that our discard spells have been impacted by the new draw spells? I haven't been casting too many Cabal Therapies myself post khans, but I would guess that they have become worse.

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I was playing it and switched to a nic fit BUG control list with maindeck force, which is significantly stronger. I think what happened to that deck is the same as what happened to Shardless - the game plan of slowly grinding out value is not viable when your opponent can chain treasure cruises. The answer is just to run delve spells yourself. Also, the inconsistency of the pod lists will often kill you, which I wasn't in love with.

I don't think FOW is a trap. I'm typically pitching stuff I can't cast for awhile (DTT or Consecrated Sphinx) so the card advantage hardly matters. I do board them out vs decks like Death & Taxes, but those are so favored anyway that I'd rather have a better game 1 against combo.