[Deck] U/G Infect

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Originally Posted by Jaytron

With Grixis on it's way out, does UG Infect regain strength again?

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We will see how the DTT ban will affect Grixis but I would say we will see a reduction of it which is very good for us indeed.
Im hoping so, cause I want to cut down to 1 absloute law in the board (maybe zero if it dies completely?) so i can get a needle in there.
No matter what, DTT was probably the most difficult card in the deck to cast, so you will experience a bonus there, when running a different card (ponder, pierce, stifle, sylvan, bimmense or other flex cards)

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Originally Posted by Neffy

We will see how the DTT ban will affect Grixis but I would say we will see a reduction of it which is very good for us indeed.
Im hoping so, cause I want to cut down to 1 absloute law in the board (maybe zero if it dies completely?) so i can get a needle in there.
No matter what, DTT was probably the most difficult card in the deck to cast, so you will experience a bonus there, when running a different card (ponder, pierce, stifle, sylvan, bimmense or other flex cards)

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Most of the Grixis pilots are fairly sure it's going to die (both the control and delver variants)

DnT will be on the rise, which feels like a pretty good matchup for Infect.

I don't know the Sneak/Show matchup, but it feels okay if you can win before they assemble.

With the DTT Ban I think we're going to see less Omnitell and Grixis delver. I feel that people that were playing these decks were displaced from other delver variants, sneak and show, ANT, Miracles, Death and Taxes, and Stone Blade. So I predict that we're going to see a resurgence of Rug Delver, Sneak and Show, ANT, Death and Taxes, and Stone Blade as all of those are decks that struggled under the DTT oppression. I also think that we'll see more lands and reanimator now too as those decks feel more viable again.

The list I'm probably going to try out while things stabilize is:

Creatures: 12
4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch

Lands: 19
4 Inkmoth Nexus
8 Green Fetch Lands
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
1 Wasteland

Spells: 29
1 Crop Rotation

Pump: 11
4 Invigorate
3 Vines of Vastwood
2 Berserk
2 Become Immense

Counter Magic: 8
3 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce

Cantrips: 9
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Ponder

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
1 Absolute Law
2 Rest in Peace
2 Krosan Grip
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Spellskite
1 Sylvan Library
1 Nature's Claim

Cards that I'm messing around with:
Days Undoing and Jace Vryn's Prodigy.

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Originally Posted by Cetan

...I also think that we'll see more lands and reanimator now too as those decks feel more viable again.

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Reanimator and Lands were actually more viable before the ban because there was less graveyard hate (running graveyard hate and DTT is counterintuitive).

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Originally Posted by battousai555

Reanimator and Lands were actually more viable before the ban because there was less graveyard hate (running graveyard hate and DTT is counterintuitive).

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So I've played a good bit of R/G Lands, and I've heard this tossed around a lot. While it makes sense that graveyard hate is going to be more prevalent, I think it's ultimately offset by the meta shift to more fair decks, which Lands is very good against. David Long was putting copies of Lands into top 8 before Khans meta, I fail to see why he wouldn't be able to do it now.

Back to discussing the proper deck, it seems like most people are currently on the 19 land plan, myself included. With the Dig Through Time ban, I don't see myself moving back up to 20 lands, even if I decide to include a second Become Immense at some point in the future. My only concern is the rise of Wasteland and mana denial strategies, which has the potential to warrant inclusion of the 20th land. That said, I think I'd be more likely to return to a main deck Stifle or sideboard Crop Rotation before adding the 9th fetch, as those cards are less likely to gum up the hand while still being good against Waste/Port/Quarter/whatever.

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Originally Posted by Jesture

David Long was putting copies of Lands into top 8 before Khans meta, I fail to see why he wouldn't be able to do it now.

That said, I think I'd be more likely to return to a main deck Stifle or sideboard Crop Rotation before adding the 9th fetch, as those cards are less likely to gum up the hand while still being good against Waste/Port/Quarter/whatever.

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Talked to David, he agrees :tongue:

I think the Stifle/Crop Rotation plan is probably the best use of the DTT slot. Especially so now that the metagame has to shift around and refind itself.

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Originally Posted by Svyelunite

Talked to David, he agrees :tongue:

I think the Stifle/Crop Rotation plan is probably the best use of the DTT slot. Especially so now that the metagame has to shift around and refind itself.

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But was the stifle ever any good? I love utility cards like that and croprot, but I ended up removing stifle from the main since it did not really ever do anything other than taking a fetchland which ended up not matter..
You rarely draw it too.. Please convince me otherwise :P

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Originally Posted by Neffy

But was the stifle ever any good? I love utility cards like that and croprot, but I ended up removing stifle from the main since it did not really ever do anything other than taking a fetchland which ended up not matter..
You rarely draw it too.. Please convince me otherwise :P

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You've got two different things going on here.

The first is your general dislike of the card. I'm not sure what to say here other than you'll almost always have a use for Stifle. Between fetchlands, planeswalkers, wastelands, deathrite, miracle triggers, equipment (jitte, sofi, bskull, lightning greaves), lavamancer, delver flip, ports, pfire, vial, etb triggers (stoneforge, craterhoof, ringleader, snapcaster) emrakul, griselbrand, sneak attack, and various others I'm forgetting, you should be able to find a use for a single copy of stifle in most matchups.

The second is your dislike for one-of cards. I'll point to Become Immense, Crop Rotation, and the recently removed Dig Through Time as examples of singletons that are considered optimal in deck construction. The inclusion as a one-of shouldn't be a problem if you feel the card does not have a place in the deck, as this can be solved by simply not playing the Stifle.

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Originally Posted by Jesture

You've got two different things going on here.

The first is your general dislike of the card. I'm not sure what to say here other than you'll almost always have a use for Stifle. Between fetchlands, planeswalkers, wastelands, deathrite, miracle triggers, equipment (jitte, sofi, bskull, lightning greaves), lavamancer, delver flip, ports, pfire, vial, etb triggers (stoneforge, craterhoof, ringleader, snapcaster) emrakul, griselbrand, sneak attack, and various others I'm forgetting, you should be able to find a use for a single copy of stifle in most matchups.

The second is your dislike for one-of cards. I'll point to Become Immense, Crop Rotation, and the recently removed Dig Through Time as examples of singletons that are considered optimal in deck construction. The inclusion as a one-of shouldn't be a problem if you feel the card does not have a place in the deck, as this can be solved by simply not playing the Stifle.

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Don't forget, it's blue so it pitches to Force. I realize that isn't a reason to play a card, but just like Deathblade, Infect can sometimes struggle to have enough blue cards in hand to reliably cast Force. Losing Dig for any non-blue card is 1 more opportunity for this to happen. If you don't like Stifle, consider adding a Flusterstorm or another Ponder/Git Probe, or even something really unexpected like Disrupt or Divert.

I feel like Stifle is rarely amazing, but as Jesture alluded to, I've never drawn it and not had at least a decent use for it.

Plus, when it is amazing, it's usually giving me a line to win.

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Originally Posted by qomori

I feel like Stifle is rarely amazing, but as Jesture alluded to, I've never drawn it and not had at least a decent use for it.

Plus, when it is amazing, it's usually giving me a line to win.

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My feelings too. I quite like stifle, I loved it in RUG where it plays 4 copies and your opponent really has to play around it (stifling a fetch on turn 1 is devastating).

That said, I don't ever really find it all that amazing in Infect as I usually have better things I want to do with my mana. I don't usually want to hold mana up a lot of the time, I want to be playing an infect creature or a noble Hierarch or pump spells. I do play it currently but it's on the bubble, somewhere around the ~59th-60th card (right next to the 20th land, which Im also currently playing but debating cutting). That said, there's times it's completely saved me from a liliana activation or an emrakul trigger.

One card I REALLY like in the main as a one of is Flusterstorm. It usually allows me to win counter wars and just go off when I otherwise couldn't. I'm almost considering moving a second into the main in place of the 20th land. On one head, the 20th land has been a boon against wasteland strategies but there's way too many times I look at my hand and see 3 fetches and 3 other/random cards, which feels absolutely awful when your opponent keeps out tempo'ing you. I really don't know what to do here either, I played 19 for the longest time and never really had a problem but I always thought I was being greedy ;) Moved up to 20 and now I'm seeing a lot of lists with 19 lol :p

Hi there, lately I saw a rise of ANT around (after the DTT ban).

I found the matchup quite difficult, how do you approach it?

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Originally Posted by Lou Key

Hi there, lately I saw a rise of ANT around (after the DTT ban).

I found the matchup quite difficult, how do you approach it?

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Cut the slow stuff (nexus, vines) and replace with disruption and graveyard hate. It's easier if you play Null Rod in SB (which you in my opinion should, as it's very effective against miracles and d&t as well.)

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Originally Posted by Hopo

Cut the slow stuff (nexus, vines) and replace with disruption and graveyard hate. It's easier if you play Null Rod in SB (which you in my opinion should, as it's very effective against miracles and d&t as well.)

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I prefer cut some Agents and Vines: ANT uses Abrupt Decay, Chain of Vapor and Echoing Truth as removals and they are useless against Inkmoth but very powerful against Glistener Elves and Blighted Agents if we haven't Vines in hand (Abrupt Decay especially).

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Originally Posted by Lou Key

I prefer cut some Agents and Vines: ANT uses Abrupt Decay, Chain of Vapor and Echoing Truth as removals and they are useless against Inkmoth but very powerful against Glistener Elves and Blighted Agents if we haven't Vines in hand (Abrupt Decay especially).

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According to you, it's not working. Also, if you are especially afraid of Chain and Decay, you might not want to cut all Vines. Your blue count is also considerably low without Agents in order for your best card, Fow to be live all the times here. I would worry a lot more about all the other cards in their deck, though. You have pretty much two modes here: push for the turn 2 kill or adjust to the control game by pinging 1-2 poison per turn holding disruption mana up all times.

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Originally Posted by Lou Key

Hi there, lately I saw a rise of ANT around (after the DTT ban).

I found the matchup quite difficult, how do you approach it?

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-3 Inkmoth Nexus
-2 Vines of Vastwood
-1 Forest

+1 Force of Will
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Savannah
+2 Rest in Peace

Then potentially side out 1-2 Hierarchs if you want to bring in Crop Rotation, or StP for Confidant/Xantid.

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Originally Posted by Jesture

-3 Inkmoth Nexus
-2 Vines of Vastwood
-1 Forest

+1 Force of Will
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Savannah
+2 Rest in Peace

Then potentially side out 1-2 Hierarchs if you want to bring in Crop Rotation, or StP for Confidant/Xantid.

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After DTT ban I'm testing the Savannah (-1 Tropical) main deck and it seems ok.

This my latest sideboard plan against storm:
-3 Vines
-2 Become Immense (due to RiP side-in)
-1 Inkmoth Nexus
-2 Noble Hierarch

+1 FoW
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Negate
+2 RiP
+1 Grafdigger's Cage
+2 Swords to Plowshares (I lost a couple of games because I couldn't counter their spell, after the X-Swarm's attack)

Why do you prefer to cut Nexus? They are the only "creature" they can't destroy/bounce.

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Originally Posted by Lou Key

Why do you prefer to cut Nexus? They are the only "creature" they can't destroy/bounce.

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Couple of reasons:

-Inkmoth is tied with Blighted Agent as our slowest creature (barring the t1 Inkmoth into t2 tap out to swing.) Inkmoth also cuts our total mana by 2 for every turn we choose to attack with it, while Blighted is a single 2 mana payment.

-Colorless mana producers (that aren't Wasteland) are pretty abysmal against combo. The only spell we can hard cast with colorless is Blighted Agent, a colored source is necessary in every other scenario. Basically, Inkmoth is a creature, not a land, against ANT.

-Blocked by Xantid. More of a corner case, but it has been relevant.

-The biggest issue I have comes with Fetchlands and Brainstorms. You're always going to run out the colored source on t1, Inkmoth typically follows on t2. With the games as short and explosive as they are, you're often not deploying Inkmoth until turn 3 or 4, followed by an attack on turn 4-5, which is unlikely to be lethal unless you have the +10 combination in hand after whatever discard they've played. Going back to a previous point, you're gumming up your mana for future turns if you don't have the perfect combination of pump spells to end the game.

-With the rise of Wastelands, I'm planning to move back to a second Crop Rotation in the sideboard. EoT threat into 10 poison counters is a much better plan than deploying an Inkmoth as a land drop, which cuts us off of an additional colored source.

-In regards to Chain/Decay, I find it's easier to play like a delver deck and never tap mana for anything after resolving a threat. I'll sometimes unload Invigorates as I draw them to play around discard, but besides that it's usually a slow and steady path to the finish.

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Originally Posted by Jesture

Couple of reasons:

-Inkmoth is tied with Blighted Agent as our slowest creature (barring the t1 Inkmoth into t2 tap out to swing.) Inkmoth also cuts our total mana by 2 for every turn we choose to attack with it, while Blighted is a single 2 mana payment.

-Colorless mana producers (that aren't Wasteland) are pretty abysmal against combo. The only spell we can hard cast with colorless is Blighted Agent, a colored source is necessary in every other scenario. Basically, Inkmoth is a creature, not a land, against ANT.

-Blocked by Xantid. More of a corner case, but it has been relevant.

-The biggest issue I have comes with Fetchlands and Brainstorms. You're always going to run out the colored source on t1, Inkmoth typically follows on t2. With the games as short and explosive as they are, you're often not deploying Inkmoth until turn 3 or 4, followed by an attack on turn 4-5, which is unlikely to be lethal unless you have the +10 combination in hand after whatever discard they've played. Going back to a previous point, you're gumming up your mana for future turns if you don't have the perfect combination of pump spells to end the game.

-With the rise of Wastelands, I'm planning to move back to a second Crop Rotation in the sideboard. EoT threat into 10 poison counters is a much better plan than deploying an Inkmoth as a land drop, which cuts us off of an additional colored source.

-In regards to Chain/Decay, I find it's easier to play like a delver deck and never tap mana for anything after resolving a threat. I'll sometimes unload Invigorates as I draw them to play around discard, but besides that it's usually a slow and steady path to the finish.

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Exactly all these points. If you think casting Agent is slow, attacking with Nexus is the equivalent of casting Agent each turn. I still like to have one copy after sideboarding against storm as sometimes the EoT Crop-into-Nexus is exactly what you need to close the game in the following turn.

Speaking of Crop Rotations: with the RiP splash, do you still find Bojuka Bog in SB relevant? That adds up to your turn one options to various combo attempts but eventually turns blank once RiP resolves. I'm undecided on this. Maybe both if you really expect heavy graveyard abuse in a tournament.

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Originally Posted by Hopo

Exactly all these points. If you think casting Agent is slow, attacking with Nexus is the equivalent of casting Agent each turn. I still like to have one copy after sideboarding against storm as sometimes the EoT Crop-into-Nexus is exactly what you need to close the game in the following turn.

Speaking of Crop Rotations: with the RiP splash, do you still find Bojuka Bog in SB relevant? That adds up to your turn one options to various combo attempts but eventually turns blank once RiP resolves. I'm undecided on this. Maybe both if you really expect heavy graveyard abuse in a tournament.

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I've cut the Bojuka Bog in the SB, I find with the RiP in there as well they felt redundant to me. No regrets doing so, the only times I find it truly matters are against very aggressive graveyard strategies (like Oops All Spells, for example) where you can crop rotate into a Bog as they're comboing off. Otherwise, RiP is much better IMO, it just needs to be mulliganed for more aggressively.