[Primer] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by emuhell

Finally someone returning to Scapeshift :). The problems are mostly the same as a few months ago I think. But it is a viable deck.

About some of your card choices:

• I miss some kind of creature-based ramp that really justifies 4 GSZ in this list (Sakura Tribe Elder, Wood Elves).
• I agree with running 2 Mountains - sometimes this gets the show going with explorers.
• I totally agree with not running the PFire engine. It is just so greedy and makes the manabase even more wanky.
• Collective Brutality on 3? Interesting choice! I guess to handle counters and drshamans - maybe even to survive that 1 pre-combo/thragtusk turn against burn.
• Lili + LftL is a slow "engine". Lili is not really good supported in the list and I guess in theory you want to discard a lot of lands to her. Not sure if that really is the way to go. You don't want to miss a single landdrop and you dont want to discard any other card (except sometimes Therapy).
• :D City of Solitude is spicy ^^ had to smile on that one - definitely valid and nice. Maybe just Overmaster as an additional tutor target?

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IMO there's little reason to Zenith elder/elves, when we could just make more explorers. The deck has a ton of ways of killing Veterans.

IMO Brutality is really good. Killing our Explorers and enemy Deathrites, takes counterspells and combo pieces. Brutality fills the punishing fire role of killing small creatures while providing other, better utility.

Liliana - the deck needs some form of removal for larger stuff we can't just Deed/Brutality away. I'd rather play Liliana than any of the other edicts, since she has other utility with the discard effect even if we don't use it all that much without Loam. Burning Wish for LftL also means we have plenty of opportunities to get an engine going.

The other option in Liliana's slot would be To The Slaughter, which is pretty nice but I'd rather have the discard synergy. We already don't care about Jace all that much since we have a fast clock and really like it when miracles taps out.

Is anyone currently running a Stoneforge build?


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Originally Posted by AtticusBlaqk

Is anyone currently running a Stoneforge build?


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I've played the 4C Atraxa Stoneblade list in the primer a while ago, and it would be my current build if I was running a 'fair' Nic Fit build at the moment. A lot of people in this thread don't like Stoneblade, but IMO it's pretty good for the current metagame.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

I've played the 4C Atraxa Stoneblade list in the primer a while ago, and it would be my current build if I was running a 'fair' Nic Fit build at the moment. A lot of people in this thread don't like Stoneblade, but IMO it's pretty good for the current metagame.

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Thanks Navsi. I had been playing a Abzan Stoneblade build a few months back but that was before Atraxa was spoiled.


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Originally Posted by AtticusBlaqk

Thanks Navsi. I had been playing a Abzan Stoneblade build a few months back but that was before Atraxa was spoiled.


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I like Abzan Stoneblade but it has the same problems as Rhinos - being entirely fair and having relatively few ways of interacting with combo decks isn't a great place to be. Stoneblade is even slower than Rhinos is, too. It makes up for it with a better Miracles/grindy match up, but it's still got a lot of bad ones (particularly 12post). Adding blue hate / sideboard options / Atraxa / Strix helps the deck for pretty much no cost imo.

@Navsi: Atraxa falls just short of being a fit Rhino replacement. I've done a bunch of testing with her, but decided to go back to the full set of Rhinos. She misses the mark by just a little bit.

Splashing blue is fine, but Atraxa shouldn't be the reason why you do it.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

@Navsi: Atraxa falls just short of being a fit Rhino replacement. I've done a bunch of testing with her, but decided to go back to the full set of Rhinos. She misses the mark by just a little bit.

Splashing blue is fine, but Atraxa shouldn't be the reason why you do it.

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Baleful Strix, Brainstorm and Leovold are the reason why you do it. Atraxa is just a bonus.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

Baleful Strix, Brainstorm and Leovold are the reason why you do it. Atraxa is just a bonus.

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Agreed. Except for Atraxa being a bonus - she's an almost-bonus.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Agreed. Except for Atraxa being a bonus - she's an almost-bonus.

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Depends what matchups you face a lot I guess. Zenithable Baneslayer is a real game changer against Delver/Burn/aggro decks. Elsewhere she's only mediocre, though.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

Depends what matchups you face a lot I guess. Zenithable Baneslayer is a real game changer against Delver/Burn/aggro decks. Elsewhere she's only mediocre, though.

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Indeed. And Delver/aggro aren't things we typically struggle with without Atraxa, so we don't really need her to improve those MUs. Burn isn't too bad, either.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Indeed. And Delver/aggro aren't things we typically struggle with without Atraxa, so we don't really need her to improve those MUs. Burn isn't too bad, either.

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Let's be fair here, the same argument could be made about Rhinos. Atraxa blocks Marit Lage / Griselbrand and does better against Eldrazi, Rhinos are a faster clock against uninteractive decks. IMO you don't want more than 1-2 of either of them.

Rhinos have an impact as soon as they hit the field, Atraxa doesn't. That's what matters for me.

It also depends on if you're using Atraxa's "flavor" text or not -- for example, Jitte.

Hey guys,

I've been following this thread for a while now and reading here helped me understand the deck a lot better, so thanks for that. I used to play a 4c rhino list and my last version was close to mitchell stephensens list. Although that list felt very strong I chose to play sneak fit instead because I believe that in legacy you just have to be able to do unfair things. Now I wonder if it's still popular at all because nobody seems to care about it.

Here's my current list:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Inferno Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Collective Brutality
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Sneak Attack
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Nissa, Vital Force

3 Forest
2 swamp
2 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Volrath's Stromghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolfrun

SB
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Carpet of Flowers

The List feels super strong especially against Miracles which I always felt was our worst matchup after elves and other combo. Having acces to Pyroclasm increases the elbes matchup, too.

I don't play Punishing Fire because for me it feels kinda clunky and there are rarely situations that couldn't handle otherwise. Plus, the manabase gets weakened considerably.

I'm curious to hear you guys opinions and thanks in advance for any advice!

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

It also depends on if you're using Atraxa's "flavor" text or not -- for example, Jitte.

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With Atraxa I killed 2/0 turbo depth by increasing his own calice to 2 ^^

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Originally Posted by BennBeckmann

I don't play Punishing Fire because for me it feels kinda clunky and there are rarely situations that couldn't handle otherwise. Plus, the manabase gets weakened considerably.

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Bit surprised you aren't running any Lightning Bolts. I have come to really appreciate Collective Brutality, but I still think the deck could use some fast speedy interaction and even a couple Bolts feel noticeable to me.

As for popularity, I'm a bit clueless. Flavor of the month tends to wax and wane on this sub. The deck also feels "solved" or at least very close to it.

I also agree that Sneaky Fit does not get the attention it deserves because it is mostly "solved" with core pieces locked into the 60/61 mb. We are a brewing bunch I guess :cool:

square two is correct when he pointed out that we need bolts in place of punishing fire. The easiest way for sneaky fit to die to tempo is to die to an unmolested cheap threat such as drs or delver and we get tempo'ed out via stifle and dazes. Bolt secures the tempo out from them and let us trash tempo the way nic fit is supposed to.

Sneaky Fit is still great, it's just mostly "solved" except for the removal suite. I personally still don't think Bolt is necessary for dealing with tempo and would rather play some combination of Brutality / Kommand / Decay, but my meta is relatively light on Delver decks. I'd also rather play Push than Bolt - reach and hitting Walkers is imo less relevant than being able to kill Goyfs.

I've been brewing a 4-colour Sneak Fit list actually, which gets to play Swords/Path as its removal spell - the primary reason for going into white is the addition of Nahiri as a secondary wincon and utility piece.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

I've been brewing a 4-colour Sneak Fit list actually, which gets to play Swords/Path as its removal spell - the primary reason for going into white is the addition of Nahiri as a secondary wincon and utility piece.

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Nice the +:w: idea finally get more input - i really enjoyed my testgames with Sneak Fit feat. Nahiri (i didn't include Sword/Path but yes white one mana spot removal is an option to - but now with fatal push it maybe isn't needed anymore in most cases).

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Originally Posted by MD.Ghost

Nice the +:w: idea finally get more input - i really enjoyed my testgames with Sneak Fit feat. Nahiri (i didn't include Sword/Path but yes white one mana spot removal is an option to - but now with fatal push it maybe isn't needed anymore in most cases).

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Being able to deal with Marit Lage, Griselbrand and Gurmag Angler is a handy upside to have available. I think the Atraxa lists have proven that a 4-colour list can still have a reasonably stable mana base.