[Deck] 43 Lands

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Originally Posted by Mictlantecuhtli

I see what you're trying to do, but wouldn't dredging into Kozilek be like GY-hating yourself anyway? :confused:

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Yes, you are, but this would only be something that you would do if you have Life from the Loam in your hand and the engine is running. The issue is that you are limited on the certain lands in your deck. If things like Mishra's workshops and gargoyle castle get exiled then you cannot recur them with Life from the Loam. This way they are shuffled into your deck and you will be able to access them again. Also, you get all of your intuitions and every other spell you have cast previously that are not in play at that time.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Is there any particular reason this deck uses a lot of "chaff" utility lands instead of just 4xing Tabernacle, considering how important Tabernacle is in this deck? It's about the only land I tutor for, besides Glacial Chasm and Barbarian Ring to end the game.

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Besides the fact that tabernacle is $200 and legendary? Sometimes you go the beatdown with factory, sometimes you need wasteland, ruins is nice too, maze slows their clock, cephalid coloseum makes you see 9 cards.

I'm not sure I understand your point. The Blue version runs silver bullets as tutor targets while the traditional list needs say riftstone portal to get mana from say tabernacle to further board position without sacrificing control. What lands do you consider chaff?

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

Besides the fact that tabernacle is $200 and legendary?

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More like 330 for a NM english one :eek:

4 tabernacle seems excessive. Considering that they are legendary and do not produce mana I would say the absolute most I would consider is 3 of them. I could easily see the right number as two given all the graveyard hate, but more seems a bit silly. My opinion has nothing to do with the cost of acquiring them, just the playability of them.

I run one tabernacle in the main and one in the side. I have been happy with that for a while.

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Originally Posted by malden

More like 330 for a NM english one :eek:

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Like they exist :rolleyes: Tabernacle might as well have been printed in Italian

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

Like they exist :rolleyes: Tabernacle might as well have been printed in Italian

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Actually, they do exist. I just got one from a friend that won 12 english legends packs as a prize at a legacy tournament. Of course he did the usual, push up the back card, see if its an expensive rare, bust it if it is, and ebay all the others. Only one pack had a rare worth more than selling the pack sealed. I have seen quite a few Tabernacles, and this one is amazing in quality. Being friends he gave me a good deal on it at 290. I will have to post scans sometime.

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

Besides the fact that tabernacle is $200 and legendary? Sometimes you go the beatdown with factory, sometimes you need wasteland, ruins is nice too, maze slows their clock, cephalid coloseum makes you see 9 cards.

I'm not sure I understand your point. The Blue version runs silver bullets as tutor targets while the traditional list needs say riftstone portal to get mana from say tabernacle to further board position without sacrificing control. What lands do you consider chaff?

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Because FWIW, Tabernacle and the speed at which you find Tabernacle has the single, biggest effect on your aggro match ups, I think you want as many as you can afford/fit into the deck because no other land has such a profound effect on the board position with out Loam backing it up.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Because FWIW, Tabernacle and the speed at which you find Tabernacle has the single, biggest effect on your aggro match ups, I think you want as many as you can afford/fit into the deck because no other land has such a profound effect on the board position with out Loam backing it up.

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dur its a legend. when you manabond out 2 how good is that for your agro matchup? this is why. if you draw 2 you cant use manabond, which is actually the best card in the deck not tab.

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Originally Posted by RexFTW

dur its a legend. when you manabond out 2 how good is that for your agro matchup? this is why. if you draw 2 you cant use manabond, which is actually the best card in the deck not tab.

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there are so many times that the second one can be pitched if manabond is in play. mox diamond, glacial chasm, gamble. as a two of the chances are low and if you absolutly have to sack both to mana bond you can always grab it back sooner rather than later. I think its woth the risk in certain matchups; thats why you keep your second in the side.

he wants to play 4....

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Is there any particular reason this deck uses a lot of "chaff" utility lands instead of just 4xing Tabernacle

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Running four is silly. you can stall long enough with manlands and maze. While great, running 4 tabernacle is 2 more than any list could profit from.
You tend beat most aggro, you tend beat most control. Its not because you run 4 tabernacle effects.

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Originally Posted by RexFTW

dur its a legend. when you manabond out 2 how good is that for your agro matchup? this is why. if you draw 2 you cant use manabond, which is actually the best card in the deck not tab.

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No shit Sherlock, the synergy with Manabond is a minor consideration, there's clearly a number between 1 and 4 Tabernacles that maximizes its effectiveness as an early game tempo generator and minimizes its late game dead card advantage. Tabernacle is probably the single most unfair card in this deck, I think you're crazy if you don't want to play more than 1 between the MD and SB at least.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Tabernacle is probably the single most unfair card in this deck

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Life from the Loam, Manabond, Glacial Chasm, Tolaria West would like to have a word with you outside

I currently have my list like this:
1 EE
4 mox diamond
1 tormod"s crypt
1 mindslaver
4 exploration
4 manabond
4 intuition
4 life from the loam
1 forest
1 taiga
1 bayou
3 tropical island
1 misty rainforest
1 windswept heath
1 wooded foothills
1 verdant catacomb
1 cephalid coliseum
1 barbarian ring
1 glacial chasm
4 maze of ith
4 mishra's factory
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
3 tolaria west
3 tranquil thicket
1 academy ruins
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale

If I wanted to play one more tabernacle in the main deck what do you guys prefer to remove in this list to swap it in?

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

Life from the Loam, Manabond, Glacial Chasm, Tolaria West would like to have a word with you outside

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Well the entire deck is fundamentally unfair, I was focusing on the effect of 1 land tho' with no support from the rest of the deck tho', Tabernacle is just ridiculous at what it does with no set up.

How do you like Tolaria West? I found that card to be incredibly bad in testing.

@proraptor: I'd cut the Mindslaver, Barbarian Ring and Taiga in the first place and replace the Crypt with Bog while having 3 Crypt in the board.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

How do you like Tolaria West? I found that card to be incredibly bad in testing.

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Sure its not ideal with manabond, but the ability to find EE, tabernacle, wasteland, academy ruins (slaver kill), chasm is really disgusting. Getting 1uu is not always easy.
In what way have you found it bad?

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Originally Posted by Julian23

@proraptor: I'd cut the Mindslaver, Barbarian Ring and Taiga in the first place and replace the Crypt with Bog while having 3 Crypt in the board.

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Why do you feel graveyard matchups have become an issue?

Also, cutting Mindslaver has the potential to significantly increase the time it takes for you to win matches, which unfortunately is a consideration.

I'm also hesitant of cutting Barbarian Ring. How else can you deal with a resolved Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage or Yixlid Jailer? Sure, you have EE but you have a lot of other uses for EE, and can't always set up recursion.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Well the entire deck is fundamentally unfair, I was focusing on the effect of 1 land tho' with no support from the rest of the deck tho', Tabernacle is just ridiculous at what it does with no set up.

How do you like Tolaria West? I found that card to be incredibly bad in testing.

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So... you can go your own way with Tabernacle. And lose. Tabernacle is mediocre at best without other cards around it. When you have wastelands, maze of ith, Mishra's Factory and utility lands around it, Tabernacle is better.

The real reason Tolaria West is so good is in situations where you don't have an Exploration or Manabond out, and need to develop the board more. For 2UUG (which, admittedly isn't always easy to get) you get to put any land from your deck into play, based on the situation. Against Zoo, you get 4x Tabernacle, against reanimator, you get 4x mishra's factory, glacial chasm or maze of ith, which changes based on the situation.

Have you read Stephen Menendian's article on the lands deck? The entire point of the article is "You can win without Exploration or Manabond"

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Originally Posted by mchainmail

Why do you feel graveyard matchups have become an issue?

Also, cutting Mindslaver has the potential to significantly increase the time it takes for you to win matches, which unfortunately is a consideration.

I'm also hesitant of cutting Barbarian Ring. How else can you deal with a resolved Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage or Yixlid Jailer? Sure, you have EE but you have a lot of other uses for EE, and can't always set up recursion.




So... you can go your own way with Tabernacle. And lose. Tabernacle is mediocre at best without other cards around it. When you have wastelands, maze of ith, Mishra's Factory and utility lands around it, Tabernacle is better.

The real reason Tolaria West is so good is in situations where you don't have an Exploration or Manabond out, and need to develop the board more. For 2UUG (which, admittedly isn't always easy to get) you get to put any land from your deck into play, based on the situation. Against Zoo, you get 4x Tabernacle, against reanimator, you get 4x mishra's factory, glacial chasm or maze of ith, which changes based on the situation.

Have you read Stephen Menendian's article on the lands deck? The entire point of the article is "You can win without Exploration or Manabond"

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Of course Tabernacle is mediocre without other cards around it, but the other cards around it are un-counterable lands and not counterable spells, that's the difference. Tabernacle essentially makes each and every land in your deck better at what it does, and there's nothing your opponent can do about it (it's a lot like Loam in that sense) My point is, I spend so much time/resources tutoring for Tabernacle that I may as well just play more Tabernacles since they have such a drastic effect on the early game.