Against TES I'd probably keep one, yeah. You're also presumably taking out Grasses, Justice, and O Ring? For 4x Chant, Aura and Confinement?
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Against TES I'd probably keep one, yeah. You're also presumably taking out Grasses, Justice, and O Ring? For 4x Chant, Aura and Confinement?
That's most of what I was taking out. I just wasn't sure about Grass in case they EtW, but that doesn't seem like the worst scenario.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
Hm. That's a fair point. Maybe take out Groves, actually. They don't seem very relevant vs. combo.
They find Dovescape, if you live that long.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
Against TES I would go:
-2 Karmic Justice
-1 Oblivion Ring
-2 Exploration
-2 Wild Growth
-1 Replenish
+4 Rule of Law
+3 Aura of Silence
+1 Dovescape
Increasing the threat-densitiy is key against all kinds of fast combo decks.
I'm going to have to disagree. Keeping your deck fast is key against combo. Growth effects are especially important. Rule of Law usually won't be useful by turn 3.
Why not take out Ground Seal instead of the acceleration effects (which can allow turn 2 Rule of Law)? IGG doesn't target, so it's basically a cycler.
Rule of Law is awful in Enchantress. It slows you down more than it slows down most storm decks, which will just search up a bounce spell and kill you.
To win against a combo deck, you have to set up a Confinement before they can kill you, and then either create a hard lock (With Groves, Dovescape, or multiple Confinements) or kill them before they find an answer.
Your maindeck should already be mostly optimized to do this, since Enchantress' gameplan against aggro decks is pretty much the same. Thus, boarding in cards that will slow down the opposing combo deck makes sense, but you have to avoid things that will hurt your primary plan too much.
Chalice of the Void is one of the best choices for this, because it is also a great card to board in against Threshold. Unfortunately, it's effectiveness against combo varies, depending on which combo deck your opponent is playing, and which cards they draw.
Serbitar's suggestion of Orim's Chant is a pretty good one, since the threat of the card can buy you almost as much time as the card itself. In a metagame that justifies dedicated combo hate, I would consider running Chant instead of Chalice.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Taiga
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
7 [UNH] Forest
2 [UNH] Plains
// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress
// Spells
2 [UD] Replenish
2 [OD] Karmic Justice
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
2 [US] Exploration
4 [IN] Sterling Grove
4 [VI] Elephant Grass
2 [OD] Ground Seal
1 [VI] City of Solitude
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [TSB] Sacred Mesa
1 [ON] Words of War
1 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
1 [LRW] Hoofprints of the Stag
1 [5E] Sylvan Library
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UD] Replenish
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 3 [TE] Choke
SB: 1 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [SH] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [DIS] Dovescape
SB: 1 [UD] Compost
SB: 1 [TE] Warmth
SB: 2 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 3 [PS] Orim's Chant
Here is the build im running right now with pretty good success any suggestions would be great. I run Prison cause Im thinking of seeing a lot more aggro then normal.
I pretty much agree with Obfuscate Freely. Take out Rule of Law, add Orim's Chant to SB. Board out Karmic Justice, Replenish (maybe), and others. Keeping in Growth affects, and imo Ground Seals for cantrips. Maybe adding the fourth Confinement to SB. I think pretty much you have to lock them out(via Dovescape, Confinements) before you can have any hope of killing them.
Been lurking for some time, now I'll contribute a somewhat bigger post...
First congratulations to SpatulaOfTheAges for the NoVA win. I'd like to analyze your list and your comments a little bit:
Actually, Moat does fix this. While it's not good against every deck, it's close to "gg" against a whole range of non-combo DtBs / DtWs. At the very least, it's buys you enough time to set up.Quote:
Thought #1: Enchantress mulligans a lot.
Thought #2: Enchantress needs an Enchantress and cheap spells to make a keepable hand, given an unknown opponent.
Thought #3: Moat, Oblivion Ring, Hoofprints of the Stag, even Sacred Mesa, do not fix these problems.
O_O <-- that's what my first thought was.Quote:
3x Elvish Spirit Guide
2x Gaea's Touch
2x Exploration
1x Wild Growth
1) Exploration + 19 lands = not a combo. This was adressed multiple times in this thread. In a deck with fewer than 25 lands, Exploration does not work as an early game acceleration and therefore it doesn't make hands keepable etc. Actually that's what Wild Growth does.
2) Elvish Spirit Guide. It's always a dead topdeck that makes Confinements more vulnerable. And usually, after you accelerated your presence out, you also need mana to pay for your Enchantments. Permanent Mana > ESG/Lotus Petal.
3) Gaea's Touch - I actually kinda like that one. Any advocates of Exploration "because you want it when going off" (since when is Enchantress a combo deck, geez) might as well consider that one.
This is debatable, but I've found City of Solitude to be the more backbreaking maindeck meta card against blue decks.Quote:
1x Choke
I see a blatant lack of white sources here. I've tested your list a little bit and getting the appropriate mana is kind of difficult sometimes. It doesn't get better with the sideboard that featuresQuote:
3x Sterling Grove
1x Karmic Justice
1x Aura of Silence
(...)
1x Taiga
2x Savannah
2x Serra's Sanctum
4x Windswept Heath
10x Forest
Quote:
4x Exalted Angel
4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Aura of Silence
1x Dovescape
Now some reports of my own. I played what I considered to be an optimal list for a blue meta in Karlsruhe, 16 players (why couldn't it be one more?) so only 4 rounds of swiss.
4 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
2 Serra's Sanctum
7 Forest
3 Plains
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
4 Elephant Grass
2 Replenish
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of Primordium
2 Ground Seal
1 Karmic Justice
1 City of Solitude
1 Words of War
1 Hoofprints of the Stag
1 Sacred Mesa
----
2 City of Solitude
2 Choke
2 Karmic Justice
1 Compost
1 Dovescape
1 Blood Moon
1 Aura of Silence
1 Rule of Law
1 Sacred Ground
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Null Chamber
1 Ground Seal
Match 1: UWbg Landstill. Green for Monasteries, featuring Faerie Conclaves, Intuition and Enlightened Tutor
Game 1: He plays a turn 2 Standstill. I break it with Enchantress, he Forces. He brainstorms, fetches and plays another Standstill. I break it with Presence, he Forces. That's how it goes on - the only spells he casts are 3 Standstills, 3 Forces, 2 or 3 Counterspells and 2 or 3 Brainstorms. I never resolve an Enchantress and he wins with Factory/Conclave beatdown
Game 2: Threat density ftw. This time he doesn't have the Standstill->Force->Standstill->Force chain, with the engine going I finally resolve a Choke followed by a Sacred Mesa.
Game 3: He counters an Enchantress, a City of Solitude and a Choke. I resolve Replenish, locking him down. I have 5 mana available, no Enchantress on the board and Enchantress's Presence + Karmic Justice in hand. I think "let's cast the presence" - big mistake. He draws a fetchland, double fetches and blows Explosives @ 3. Presence, City, Choke, all dead. I'm out of this game.
Landstill doesn't forgive mistakes...
0-1, 1-2
Match 2: Affownity (not the new Dreadnought version)
Game 1: Last time he was playing Boros, so I keep a hand without Enchantress, but with Moat. He plays Ornithopter, Frogmite and 2 Enforcers, I play a Moat and feel semi-comfortable. He topdecks Arcbound Ravager and puts 4 (wtf? only 4?) counters on the Ornithopter. The top 5 cards of my library are lands (I've fetched twice before). GG.
Game 2: A turn 2 Aura of Silence eats a Force of Will, but Replenish may resolve. Facing a Plated Cloud of Faeries I establish Moat+Confinement and eventually resolve Words of War, leaving him one final turn. An Echoing Truth on my Confinement makes me frown in the first moment (haven't drawn any Sterling Groves), but I remember that Aura of Silence can destroy Plating on his otherwise lethal Cloud, so I win that one.
Game 3: Turn 2 Aura of Silence rocks. But still, my hand is not the fastest one and he has double Ancient Tomb, so I soon face a plated Ornithopter and a WINTER ORB which causes serious problems. When he also plays Ravager I have to Oblivion Ring his Winter Orb and play a Confinement with 2 Enchantress Effects in my hand and none on the board. It works. Him not drawing any blue mana source (with 2 Echoing Truth in hand) did also help. Words of War finish the game.
Wow, this matchup is a pretty hard one.
1-1, 3-3
Match 3: UGw Threshold with Counterbalance and Hoofprints over Enforcer
Game 1: He gets Counterbalance on turn 3, and beats with 2 Goyfs. I resolve a Presence and when I'm about to die I Time Walk once with a Confinement, then find my Sacred Mesa, producing 2 Tokens. He only finds one StoP in the 9 cards he looked at with Top+2 Fetch, so I survive. However, he finds a Needle shutting down Mesa. I dig for additional outs an find a Replenish bringing back Confinement. I can resolve some Enchantresses afterwards, Seal of Primordium (or Obl. Ring?) deals with Needle and Mesa wins.
Game 2: Having Mongoose = good. Having a Force in Hand = good. Topdecking the second Force = good. Having a Sensei's Divining Top to dig for the second land that is missing = ok, not bad. Discovering that there's no land in the top 7 cards = oh well... That was an easy one. He doesn't have infinite free counterspells so eventually I just resolve 2 Enchantress effects + Hoofprints.
I imagined this to be harder.
2-1, 5-3
Match 4: 4c Landstill with Cunning Wish
Game 1: I'm on the play and face a turn 3 Pernicious Deed. I look at my hand which features Karmic Justice, Replenish and Replenish. This is gonna be fun. After I justiced his board he forces the first Replenish but can't force the second one. Facing two Enchantress effects + Karmic Justice + Confinement + Sterling Grove he scoops.
Game 2: Third turn Karmic Justice. Fourth turn Karmic Justice. He doesn't look happy. I don't remember much of the game, it just included a Forced Moat, a Forced Replenish, Cunning Wish->Dismantling Blow, and Ground Seal > Academy Ruins. I still won with only one Enchantress effect out. Threat density ftw.
Justice rules.
3-1, 7-3
Conclusions:
- The only match I've lost was due to a severe misplay, sounds good to me.
- Never really wanted to see Hoofprints, though, although I've won once with them.
- The Affownity player didn't use his Wastelands properly, he might have been able to screw me in 1 or 2 moments, also, I was lucky that the 4C Landstill-Player didn't have a Wasteland in game 1, it might have cost me the game. I think about doing -1 Savannah +1 Wooded Foothills.
- Disappointed with Ground Seal. Often I would have liked Sylvan Library better.
After the tournament, I read SpatulaOfTheAges' report. I don't like his list, but he says 4 Ground Seals are necessary, so I decide to leave the Sylvan Libraries out and test 4 Seals.
Next weekend, next tournament, this time in Heidelberg. Unknown meta for me, 16 players, 4 rounds Swiss (again...). I scout some Loam, so 4 Ground Seals should be right.
MB:
-1 Hoofprints of the Stag
-1 City of Solitude
+2 Ground Seal
SB:
-1 Ground Seal
+1 Hoofprints of the Stag
As stated, 4 Seals main. I wanted to give the 5-dual-manabase a last chance. Hoofprints in the SB because I feel somewhat uncomfortable with only 2 available winconditions in an unknown meta.
Match 1: Ub Faerie Stompy, no Forces, but Shriekmaws.
Game 1: Sea Drake + Serendib Efreet quickly take me down, but I can establish Confinement just in time (always tried to bait FoW before...). Words of War wins.
Game 2: He has Chalice @ 1 and 2, I spend my time "cycling" Ground Seals and Enchant Lands with one Presence out. I find Sacred Mesa to stop his Mulldrifter beats just in time and misplay by only leaving enough mana open to produce 2 blockers for 2 dudes. He topdecks Pestermite, tapping a blocker. Great, this starts just like the last time, I'm retarded.
Game 3: He mulls to 5 and faces a turn 2 Aura of Silence. I take some beats, then establish Confinement and finish with, I think, Words of War.
Fortunately that stupid mistake in game 2 didn't cost me the match...
1-0, 2-1
Match 2: RG Aggro Loam.
Game 1: Land, Mox Diamond, Mox Diamond, Countryside Crusher. WTF. Hmmm... okay, take that: second turn Presence, third turn Ground Seal, fourth turn Moat. Fifth turn Burning Wish, Reverent Silence, GG. (There are certain hands one can't defeat.)
Game 2: Mulligan to 6, keeping Taiga as the only green source. But otherwise a promising hand including Ground Seal and Enchantress's Presence. He wastes my Taiga and cuts me off green (I draw 2/3 Basic Plains), then he grips my Ground Seal and sets up Loam + Assault. I have a tiny piece of hope when I draw a green source and cast Argothian Enchantress -- just to discover he has Devastating Dreams in his hand.
Opponent draws the nuts game 1, I'm screwed game 2. Oh well...
1-1, 2-3
Match 3: Gbu Loam - >30 lands, Intuition, Dark Confidant, Witness, Crucible, Ruins+EE, Glacial Chasm, Explorations, Manabond. Whatever you want to call it.
Game 1: He Ghost Quarters me 7 (!) times with the help of Loam+Exploration, just to discover that I play enough basics. Ground Seal stops Loam and Moat stops swinging Confidants and Witnesses, the engine is all set up and I'm just about to win when he counts his mana sources and says "Profane Command for 7." .....wtf.....
Game 2: Turn 2 Blood Moon > His Deck. By the time he finds Mox Diamond + Krosan Grip I've already won.
Game 3: Like in game 1, Ground Seal and Moat stop him easily, this time I know I also have to set up Confinement. He dies to his own Confidants.
Strange deck. He keeps talking about how unlucky he was. Hmmm...
2-1, 4-4
Match 4: UGr Threshold. Somebody tells me he might run mainboard Trygon Predators...
Game 1: Yep. Turn 2 Tarmogoyf, Turn 3 Trygon Predator, Force-backup. You need a god-draw to beat this, I didn't have one.
Game 2: I get my revenge with a turn 2 force-baiting Enchantress, turn 3 Choke, locking him down. His single Tarmogoyf is handled by Moat, he scoops to Sacred Mesa.
Game 3: I keep a good hand (Presence, Choke, Confinement) that has one drawback: My first turn must be Savannah + Wild Growth. I haven't seen a Wasteland in those 2 games so I decide it's worth the risk. He ponders into a turn 2 Wasteland that screws me. Mongoose + Goyf beat and I can't do anything about it.
ZOMG Trygon Predator. And ZOMG lost to Wasteland again.
2-2, 5-6
Conclusions:
- I've lost 2 games to a single Wasteland. This was definitely the last time I've played this deck with 5 duals.
- Ground Seal is huge when you face Loam twice. But it sucked against Threshold - again.
- Hoofprints were not boarded a single time. They will leave the deck.
A reworked manabase could look like this:
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
7 Forest
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
What do you gain? Less vulnerability to Wasteland. With 8 Enchant Land-effects you really don't want to draw duals.
What do you lose? Invulnerability to Stifle.
> Getting an enchanted dual wasted is much more devastating than getting a fetchland wasted. ("Just enchant your basic lands" -- I'd like to, but for some reason I always draw my duals)
> Wasteland sees more play than Stifle.
> If you draw all your fetchlands, you should often be able to play around Stifle. But if you draw all your duals, you're not really able to play around Wasteland.
On the combo matchup: Rule of Law is not ideal, but Chalice of the Void sucks even more, don't play it. Orim's Chant might be the best inclusion. Note that Chant works well with a fetchland-heavy manabase.
I'm always glad to see any Enchantress player do well, but I have a lot I disagree with in your post.
Going over your list I didn't see any games Moat won you, and one where it directly cost you the game (making you think you could hide behind Moat instead of mulling into an enchantress).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brehn
Emphasis mine. This difference in attitudes towards the deck is exactly what I was talking about when I say I have a deep distrust for the direction Enchantress is headed, and honestly, I think it's this approach that is keeping Enchantress out of the DTB forum.Quote:
1) Exploration + 19 lands = not a combo. This was adressed multiple times in this thread. In a deck with fewer than 25 lands, Exploration does not work as an early game acceleration and therefore it doesn't make hands keepable etc. Actually that's what Wild Growth does.
2) Elvish Spirit Guide. It's always a dead topdeck that makes Confinements more vulnerable. And usually, after you accelerated your presence out, you also need mana to pay for your Enchantments. Permanent Mana > ESG/Lotus Petal.
3) Gaea's Touch - I actually kinda like that one. Any advocates of Exploration "because you want it when going off" (since when is Enchantress a combo deck, geez) might as well consider that one.
You guys are treating Enchantress like it's Parfait with a draw engine. I think of Enchantress as a deck that wins by drawing cards. Not just in the general sense that all decks win by drawing cards. But the decks almost exclusive function is drawing and playing as many cards as possible. A high curve and cards that don't replace their casting cost slow down your main goal of drawing cards. So those cards must be exceptional to make up for their weight. Replenish, Confinement, Grass, Ground Seal, all offer you abilities that are well worth their cost.
I think this is again a matter of how you approach the deck. Early game I don't need very much white. If you rely more on playing your bullet enchantments than aggressively drawing cards, I guess more white would make sense.Quote:
blatant lack of white sources here. I've tested your list a little bit and getting the appropriate mana is kind of difficult sometimes. It doesn't get better with the sideboard that features
Although I may change the MD Aura to a Seal.
Why do you say CotV sucks?Quote:
combo matchup: Rule of Law is not ideal, but Chalice of the Void sucks even more, don't play it. Orim's Chant might be the best inclusion. Note that Chant works well with a fetchland-heavy manabase.
It did win games. It won:Quote:
Going over your list I didn't see any games Moat won you, and one where it directly cost you the game (making you think you could hide behind Moat instead of mulling into an enchantress).
- Game 2 vs Ubg Loam (stopped 2x Bob + Witness)
- Game 3 vs Ubg Loam (stopped 3x Bob + Witness)
- Game 2 vs UGr Threshold. This exact game is a major example of a game your list couldn't have won easily. So you resolved a Choke and your Thresh-playing opponent doesn't have any mana anymore. But he does have a 5/6 Goyf. And he forced your Enchantress. What can your list do to stop that clock? You play 2 Confinements - you don't have the setup to achieve a lock. You play 4 Grass (so do I) - but against Threshold you've probably boarded them out (so did I). That's it. I think you'll lose that game. I have Oblivion Rings, I have Moat, I have one more Confinement to do at least a Time Walk, I have Mesa for chumpblockers, I have 4 Groves instead of your three. I win that game.
Moat also could have won:
- Game 1 vs Ubg Loam (hadn't he topdecked his singleton Profane Command, his only maindeck card that beats Ground Seal + Moat)
- Game 1 vs RG Aggro Loam (hadn't he had the Burning Wish in time)
Also it did:
- bait a Force vs 4c Landstill.
- bait a Force vs UGw Threshold, resulting in a resolving Mesa.
- buy several turns vs Affownity (lost anyway because of 5 topdecked lands). A 4/6 Ornithopter is a slower clock than a 0/2 Ornithopter, 2 Myr Enforcers and a Frogmite.
Truth is, I had no matchup like Goblins where I could just write "Moat = gg". But it still was useful in every match except the Faerie Stompy one.
I also played 8x Enchantress + 4x Ground Seal + 4x Grass + 5x Confinement/Replenish. I just cut cards that are dead in several occasions (namely Exploration, Gaea's Touch, Elvish Spirit Guide) for cards that guarantee you'll have the time to set up your engine, like Oblivion Ring, Moat or even Sacred Mesa (which did the job once and would have done a second time hadn't I been a retard). I actually can't see how Elvish Spirit Guide or Gaea's Touch fit into a strategy of "aggressively drawing cards". They're not Parfait-style cards, for sure. But is Gaea's Touch really superior to Oblivion Ring? I know the comparison is somewhat out of place, but you play Touch where I play Ring.Quote:
You guys are treating Enchantress like it's Parfait with a draw engine. I think of Enchantress as a deck that wins by drawing cards.(...)Replenish, Confinement, Grass, Ground Seal, all offer you abilities that are well worth their cost.
Chalice @ 0 doesn't stop TES from going off. You might be able to slow them down 1 or 2 turns, but then they are able to go off through it, they don't even need to remove it. Removing a Chalice is possible in a single turn. Setting Chalice @ 1 doesn't make much sense to me, and Chalice @ 2 should be too slow, although it can be cast on turn 2 in a list with Elvish Spirit Guides.Quote:
Why do you say CotV sucks?
What I like about Rule of Law is that they absolutely can't go off through it. TES has to go for Burning Wish -> Cleanfall, which costs two additional turns, not to forget they need multiple lands (they only play 10) and/or Simian Spirit Guides, otherwise they take even longer. In this time you can hopefully set up Null Chamber / Dovescape via Sterling Grove.
However, Orim's Chant should be the best choice as they stop TES after your first turn. But I don't think that Chants are able to do it alone, you'll still need a Rule of Law to back it up after TES has found his own Chant.
you should probably be running at least 1 moat so you can search it up with sterling grove, anyways thats what ive been doing with my MWS list. Basically whats been working for me is a lot of E accelerants, a playset of groves, and a bunch of different one of's to make a sort of tool box. Its very close to what Spat posted but i dropped some of the more situational cards like choke, aura of silence, etc... and put more versatile ones in. I saved those as 1 ofs for the board and it realy has been working for me.
I played around with a list that looked exactly like Brehn's. It played well, but lost me games because the engine was slow and clunky while getting going. It was never very fast to get into a lock. After seeing Spat's list, I changed mine a lot. Adding the accel was the first part. ESG is never dead! The mana it provides is awesome. Playing turn one Argothian is awesome. Discarding it to Confinement is awesome. I have never ran into a situation where I hated seeing it.
Exploration has not been bad at all. I do want to add another land to make it more effective first turn, but I have not had repeated problems with mana. He is just great and draws so many cards because it lets me keep playing enchantments.
Moat was a cool card, but I hardly ever played it. I loved it as a stall piece, but I rarely got it down early enough for it to do anything. Most of the time it sat in my hand until I got a Sanctum down to cast it.
Also, I have upped the white count to 3 Savannahs and have never had problems casting stuff.
Actually, no, I keep in Grass because it combos so well with Choke. I side out Explorations, Touches and Confinements for Angels, Choke, City and Aura. I have more outs there, but that's may be partly because you're keeping in Confinement, which is a mistake against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brehn
I obviously can't gainsay which games it won, since I wasn't there, but your report doesn't reveal any critical role that the card played. The Moat slot converted into an extra Replenish for me, and that third Replenish won me many games.
But those are not a guarantee. They're a gamble. And they're very mana hungry gambles. And they have a hidden drawback, in that they prevent explosive Enchantress hands like my list has. If we compared games where you resolved and untapped with an Enchantress, I would bet large that my list has a much higher win rate.Quote:
I also played 8x Enchantress + 4x Ground Seal + 4x Grass + 5x Confinement/Replenish. I just cut cards that are dead in several occasions (namely Exploration, Gaea's Touch, Elvish Spirit Guide) for cards that guarantee you'll have the time to set up your engine, like Oblivion Ring, Moat or even Sacred Mesa (which did the job once and would have done a second time hadn't I been a retard).
Yes. Because Oblivion Ring tries to do its own thing, whereas Gaea's Touch only works with Enchantresses out, but with Enchantresses out, Gaea's Touch is Gush with Exploration out, and Oblivion Ring is a Counsel of the Soratami.Quote:
I actually can't see how Elvish Spirit Guide or Gaea's Touch fit into a strategy of "aggressively drawing cards". They're not Parfait-style cards, for sure. But is Gaea's Touch really superior to Oblivion Ring? I know the comparison is somewhat out of place, but you play Touch where I play Ring.
I guess you could make an argument in certain metas to play stall cards over accel, but really, in any meta where that would make sense, I'd rather just play Ichorid.
I don't see why @ 1 doesn't make sense. After the first turn it's not that big a detriment.Quote:
Chalice @ 0 doesn't stop TES from going off. You might be able to slow them down 1 or 2 turns, but then they are able to go off through it, they don't even need to remove it. Removing a Chalice is possible in a single turn. Setting Chalice @ 1 doesn't make much sense to me, and Chalice @ 2 should be too slow, although it can be cast on turn 2 in a list with Elvish Spirit Guides.
The thing is that, outside possibly Chant, none of your options do more than buy a turn or two on their own, but Chalice can do it for free without hurting your gameplan.
But even when they drop their own Chant, you Chant in response and they still can't go off that turn. That still buys at least one turn. I think at least we're agreed that Chant seems like the best option, though of course it needs more actual testing.Quote:
However, Orim's Chant should be the best choice as they stop TES after your first turn. But I don't think that Chants are able to do it alone, you'll still need a Rule of Law to back it up after TES has found his own Chant.
Wow...been a while since I posted here.
First off, you need to know that I have neither the money nor the time to invest in real-life M:tG anymore, but I have been playing the game for many years, and of the many decks in this, my favorite format, Enchantress is by and large one of my favorites. Until fairly recently, I kept careful track of the changes in the deck, ran it frequently on MWS (several people who post on these boards will recognize my name, and yeah, it's me if you don't already know), and tested several original changes, many of which elude me at the moment.
However, in the end the list I ended up with was almost invariably along these lines:
Mana
7 Forest
2 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
Engine
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
Spells
3 Replenish
Enchantments
4 Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
2 Oblivion Ring
3 City of Solitude
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Karmic Justice
1 Moat
Win
1 Words of War
1 Hoofprints of the Stag
1 Sacred Mesa
Sideboard
2 Karmic Justice
2 Choke
3 Ground Seal
1 Dovescape
1 Null Chamber
1 Sacred Ground
4 Orim's Chant
1 Compost
This is the most recent list I've tested, and it performed well for me.
I'm aware that there is a degree of unnecessary redundancy in some of the choices, but that is in fact by design.
It's not a matter of superstition, just my observations about the way that MWS randomizes cards. Over more test shuffles and hands than I really care to count, and more than enough test matches to verify those hands' legitimacy, I found that even with 4 Sterling Groves (which incidentally, I haven't seen one of before locking my opponent in several weeks), I needed three City of Solitude just the consistently have an answer to the seemingly common opposing draw of Brehn's mentioned "Standstill->Force->Standstill->Force" chain. It seems that when I run Enchantress, all I face is Landstill or Faerie Stompy. It's kind of disconcerting, but they are (or were at least) fairly common decks in the metagame I play on online.
Anyway, let me revise the list slightly to be less MWS-shuffles-in-the-most-bizarre-fashion-o.O - like.
Mana
7 Forest
2 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
Engine
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
Spells
3 Replenish
Enchantments
4 Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
2 Oblivion Ring
1 City of Solitude
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Karmic Justice
1 Moat
1 Ground Seal
1 Seal of Primordium
Win
1 Words of War
1 Hoofprints of the Stag
1 Sacred Mesa
Sideboard
2 Karmic Justice
1 Choke
2 Ground Seal
1 Dovescape
1 Null Chamber
1 Sacred Ground
4 Orim's Chant
1 Compost
2 City of Solitude
This list may seem, and indeed is, fundamentally similar to Brehn's list, but that's probably because he helped me build it, though it was probably a couple months ago now. My sense of time is almost nonexistent... But regardless, in my testing I've never had major issues with the manabase; it's been almost the same for about as long as I've been playing the deck.
The rest of the deck, besides the core of the deck, staple cards that I personally would never run less than four of (Enchantresses, Groves, G-CC mana auras, and 3 Solitary Confinement), is mostly influenced by my own testing, and I haven't really reconnected with Brehn about the deck until earlier today in fact. Any changes from my 2-3 week old list were not influenced by him, but more by my browsing through this thread looking for updates. There weren't many that I hadn't already added or read of elsewhere, but I enjoy reading the posts here.
On that subject, I actually played against Brehn today in an 8 man tournament (I don't know if I'm allowed to say where; suffice it to say, it was not a real-life tournament). He was using Spatula's list(+-1 card if I remember correctly, though I don't remember what card he changed if he did), and I was running Pox. Now, in my personal experience with the deck, that matchup has the potential to be absolutely awful. I got two decent draws; he got one subpar one and one that just had me confused.
The exact details of the match I don't remember too clearly, as I'm very tired, and I have a bad headache and a generally bad memory already. However, I do recall quite clearly slaughtering his hand game 1 and being thoroughly confused by what I saw, a feeling that was compounded when I was told that he was running 19 lands.
I have to say, the manabase on Spatula's list had me dumbstruck, though I'll let the people who have tested it for themselves pass judgment on that front. I will however agree with Brehn here: Enchantments that let you play more lands make useless 4-ofs if you don't run enough lands to support the effect. I consider it to be along the lines of running a play set of Forces and Dazes as your only blue spells, with only 4 Islands in your deck, for example. I dropped Exploration months ago because it wasn't really serving the purpose it was intended for consistently enough with my 20 land mana base. It was never intended to allow me to drop extra lands while going off. That serves no real purpose, as I'm sure most if not all of the people who actually read my post already know. I DO however like Gaea's Touch; it seems like it could be a very explosive spell in the right situations.
On a similar note, I see no real benefit to drawing Elvish Spirit Guide at ANY point in the game. On turn one on the play, your Enchantress can still be easily Forced, and on the draw Forced or Dazed. After that, any other ESGs seem like dead weight in your hand most of the time unless you have a Confinement to pitch them to. But lands serve that purpose just as well, do they not? But again, I'll let the people who test the list truly pass judgment. I do however plan to be one of those people, though not with the exact list that Spatula won with.
At worst, this has given me something to think about until I keel over from exhaustion. I could use the sleep anyway, but I'll keep monitoring this thread.
Only if you have Exploration out.Quote:
But lands serve that purpose just as well, do they not?
And not on turn 1.
The problem I have with these lists is that they seem to assume that once an Enchantress is down, the game is won. That simply isn't the case; you need to get an Enchantress down and proceed to draw a ridiculous amount of cards to be in a winning position. The list I'm advocating is much more suited to that task. It has less of a plan B, this is true. But I don't consider the current plan B to be much good anyway.
I don't know what to say other than I beat two discard heavy decks in the tournament I played 2 weeks ago, and won both matches 2-0. One of those games I even mulled to 4. I think blaming the deck may be premature; I wouldn't expect anyone used to playing the list you guys have posted to adjust automatically to playing my more aggressive list. It's a very different mentality.Quote:
On that subject, I actually played against Brehn today in an 8 man tournament (I don't know if I'm allowed to say where; suffice it to say, it was not a real-life tournament). He was using Spatula's list(+-1 card if I remember correctly, though I don't remember what card he changed if he did)), and I was running Pox. Now, in my personal experience with the deck, that matchup has the potential to be absolutely awful. I got two decent draws; he got one subpar one and one that just had me confused.
The exact details of the match I don't remember too clearly, as I'm very tired, and I have a bad headache and a generally bad memory already. However, I do recall quite clearly slaughtering his hand game 1 and being thoroughly confused by what I saw, a feeling that was compounded when I was told that he was running 19 lands.
I certainly don't see how having a higher curve would improve your Pox match-up.
The problem I have with your list is that you assume you always get an Enchantress down. On turn 1 or turn 2. I've looked through your report again, you've played against exactly one deck with counters, and you lost that match. Also, your Enchantresses were never discarded or removed except for one game (vs Garvish Aggro) which you lost (probably some got discarded in the other discard matchups, but you still got to stick at least one).Quote:
The problem I have with these lists is that they seem to assume that once an Enchantress is down, the game is won. That simply isn't the case; you need to get an Enchantress down and proceed to draw a ridiculous amount of cards to be in a winning position. The list I'm advocating is much more suited to that task. It has less of a plan B, this is true. But I don't consider the current plan B to be much good anyway.
That's the problem. "with Enchantresses out"... I don't doubt it. If you tell me "I always resolve an Enchantress effect on turn 2 and it doesn't get removed ever", I can see an inclusion of Gaea's Touch fully justified.Quote:
Yes. Because Oblivion Ring tries to do its own thing, whereas Gaea's Touch only works with Enchantresses out, but with Enchantresses out, Gaea's Touch is Gush with Exploration out, and Oblivion Ring is a Counsel of the Soratami.
The only meta where I wouldn't play Enchantress is called "combo-heavy meta", and I wouldn't play Ichorid there either.Quote:
I guess you could make an argument in certain metas to play stall cards over accel, but really, in any meta where that would make sense, I'd rather just play Ichorid.
Let's adress two important matchups:
a) Threshold.
Don't think you'll resolve that single Enchantress in your hand, you probably won't. Games I play against Threshold very often involve a Fow'd Enchantress effect on turn 2 or 3, and either BalanceTop or Tarmogoyf or Tarmogoyf+X on their turn 3. This position doesn't look very nice, but winning from it is far from impossible. Some important advantages my list has:
1) Daze-proof. I'll just say: 21 lands > 19 lands. 8 Enchant Lands > 5 Enchant Lands. This makes it very easy to play around Daze, leaving them with only 4 actual counterspells.
2) CB-proof. A high curve (with several spells with cc3) is actually quite useful when facing Counterbalance.
3) More mana available -> additional CB-proof. Exploration and Gaea's Touch are pretty useless without Enchantress effects, while Enchant Lands and lands themselves are not necessarily. Play 3 spells in one turn and the last one might very well resolve through CB (sure, this doesn't always work)
4) I play answers to beaters. Elephant Grass will never resolve through BalanceTop if the Threshold player doesn't want to, and even if it does resolve it won't stop a beating Tarmogoyf without the help of Choke. Without Enchantresses, Confinement just buys you one turn, a hardcasted Spirit Guide just buys you one turn. Grass + Choke is horribly difficult to set up when facing a 2-turn or 3-turn clock. And that's it, you don't play any more answers. Now what about answers like Sacred Mesa, Oblivion Ring or Moat, all of them CB-proof? If I'm somehow able to resolve a Sterling Grove, I don't have any difficulties to stop them. Also, if Grove got countered, I can still Replenish it. Sure you also can do so, but what are you going to tutor for? Enchantress's Presence, while you're on 4 life?
5) Postboard: Threat density. Sure this depends a lot on your sideboard, but with 2-3 Cities and 2 Chokes it's hard not to resolve a key spell. Additional Oblivion Rings also help.
b) Landstill.
Two pages back you described how to beat Landstill:
I agree....Quote:
Dovescape. Replenish. Threat density.
Pack an extra Replenish in the board
...not.Quote:
and aggresively draw cards. Don't dance around with stuff trying to protect your board. Just draw more cards than them. Make that your priority.
- Karmic Justice is THE MVP in that matchup (after Replenish). Nearly any time you resolve it you're in a favorable position.
- "Just draw more cards than them" -- yeah, I'd love to, but somehow I never draw more than one card per turn. Does this have something to do with them countering and EE'ing all my Enchantresses? This sentence already implies a favorable position. I don't say I have won as soon as I have an Enchantress on the board (as you accused me to), but I say you're at least in a favorable position. Often the problem you have with Landstill is that they actually draw more cards than you do and you're not able to stop that. That's why I think there are two important concepts:
1) Threat density
2) Karmic Justice.
Usually I don't lose postboard games to Landstill with my list (unless I scrub out like in Karlsruhe...). That's because my list (even with only 2 Replenish) looks like this:
If I don't counter this I lose:
3 City of Solitude <-- 3 Force of Will
3 Karmic Justice <-- 4th Force, 2 Counterspell
2 Replenish <-- Counterspell #3 and 4
2 Choke <--- fuck, I'm out.
1 Dovescape <--- :(
1 Blood Moon <--- had I just played MUC...
I'd also like to counter/remove this:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Solitary Confinement (only one gets boarded out)
That's how it goes. Don't think you could draw more cards than Landstill. Just play more Must-counter cards than they have counters. Save your Replenishes for the end of the counter-baiting key-spell chain and do try to resolve Karmic Justice anyhow, because even after resolving 4 key spells, Deed and EE have the potential to totally wreck you. Boarding gets a little bit more difficult if they play Academy Ruins, because if they do, you really want to see a Ground Seal.
Now look at your list. 3 Replenish, 2 Justice, 1 Choke, 1 Dovescape. I doubt that's enough. With so few gamebreaking spells they might as well let the Justice resolve and just focus on countering/removing your engine and countering your Replenishes. Have you tested the UWb and 4C Landstill matchups? If you did, how did the games end in which you couldn't stick an Enchantress effect?
Last note: Your arguments about the third Replenish make sense, I'll add it at least to the sideboard. However, I'll never cut Moat for it. Maybe you couldn't see it in my reports but Moat was absolutely turning the board position around in 6 games, while being critical in 2 others, see my last post. That's just as gamebreaking as Replenish. And in fact, Replenish would never have been better.
Disclaimer: I may come off as combative in this post. It's nothing personal against you, it's that we're each arguing for two very different philosophies for the deck, and I see the distinction as crucial for the future of the deck.
That's not true. I had multiple Enchantresses discarded in rounds 2 and 3, but I can win through disruption because I only need to stick a single Enchantress to quickly go out of control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brehn
Also, that game against Thresh, had the Replenish I drew been a Moat, would not have won me the game, since all my Replenishes got countered anyway. So blaming the different decklists for my one loss is disengenuous.
How about this; "if I don't resolve an Enchantress sometime, I'm not going to win"? Because that's what the reality of this deck is. You MUST resolve an Enchantress. If you think you're going to win with Moat and Karmic Justice, you're fooling yourself. Once in a blue moon you may pull out a win just by Pegasus tokens, but then I've won once or twice with ESG beats, so let's drop the flukes and look at what the deck's actual gameplan is.Quote:
That's the problem. "with Enchantresses out"... I don't doubt it. If you tell me "I always resolve an Enchantress effect on turn 2 and it doesn't get removed ever", I can see an inclusion of Gaea's Touch fully justified.
I'm not implying that Enchantress is necessarily bad in a control heavy meta. I'm saying that in a meta-game where you can afford to view Enchantress as a control deck, and don't seem to care about your speed is one where I would rather just play Ichorid. Speed matters; you see that a lot in your reports. The best defense against board sweepers is A) Replenish, B) have a full hand post-sweep. It's hard to fill up your hand quickly when you have a bunch of 3cc enchantments.Quote:
The only meta where I wouldn't play Enchantress is called "combo-heavy meta", and I wouldn't play Ichorid there either.
I run 1 less must-counter game 1 than you do.Quote:
a) Threshold.
Don't think you'll resolve that single Enchantress in your hand, you probably won't.
Your list:
8x Enchantresses
4x Grove
2x Replenish
1x Sacred Mesa
1x Hoofprints
1x City of Solitude
My list:
8x Enchantresses
3x Grove
3x Replenish
1x Choke
1x Sylvan Library
BUT I can cast a turn 1 Argothian or Library on the play, before they have Daze or Brainstorm active. So our odds of resolving a spell that matters are about the same, except I can more rapidly take advantage of it, which is especially important if the first Enchantress is countered. I played lists like yours for a while, and what often ends up happening is that they counter or Thoughtseize the first one, and the second, and you resolve the third, but by then you're within one or two swings of death, and you need to draw into answers quickly. So you drop maybe a Moat, which takes your whole turn, and draws one card, but then they cantrip into a Grip or an Enforcer and just kill you anyway, because you couldn't take advantage of your draw engine.
You need those extra mana sources because your curve is higher, making you more vulnerable to Daze.Quote:
Games I play against Threshold very often involve a Fow'd Enchantress effect on turn 2 or 3, and either BalanceTop or Tarmogoyf or Tarmogoyf+X on their turn 3. This position doesn't look very nice, but winning from it is far from impossible. Some important advantages my list has:
1) Daze-proof. I'll just say: 21 lands > 19 lands. 8 Enchant Lands > 5 Enchant Lands. This makes it very easy to play around Daze, leaving them with only 4 actual counterspells.
Obviously you have never ESGed a Daze before, or you wouldn't think that my list was more vulnerable to Daze than your's.
Only if your high cc spells matter. I would rather resolve a Replenish in one game than a Moat in three games, because the Replenish will win me that game single-handedly and the Moat won't win anything on its own.Quote:
2) CB-proof. A high curve (with several spells with cc3) is actually quite useful when facing Counterbalance.
You know that Gaea's Touch has a second ability, right? And that spells with lower cc's are easier to cast in multiples than spells with higher cc's?Quote:
3) More mana available -> additional CB-proof. Exploration and Gaea's Touch are pretty useless without Enchantress effects, while Enchant Lands and lands themselves are not necessarily. Play 3 spells in one turn and the last one might very well resolve through CB (sure, this doesn't always work)
Do you PLAY against Threshold?Quote:
4) I play answers to beaters. Elephant Grass will never resolve through BalanceTop if the Threshold player doesn't want to, and even if it does resolve it won't stop a beating Tarmogoyf without the help of Choke. Without Enchantresses, Confinement just buys you one turn, a hardcasted Spirit Guide just buys you one turn. Grass + Choke is horribly difficult to set up when facing a 2-turn or 3-turn clock. And that's it, you don't play any more answers. Now what about answers like Sacred Mesa, Oblivion Ring or Moat, all of them CB-proof?
I've rarely seen a player have any serious difficulty getting a 3 cc spell in their top 3 if they need to.
Sacred Mesa costs seven mana to buy one turn. Seven. 3 to cast, 2 to upkeep, and 2 to actually block one dude(assuming their StP doesn't just eat it). When you're under pressure, ramping up 7 mana to chump one dude isn't going to save you.
It depends on what's out on my board. If nothing, Moat is just going to buy a turn or two at most before it gets Gripped or they swing with an Enforcer. In situations like these, you're pretty much done for anyway. I'd rather play a list that concentrates on winning from salvagable positions, rather than playing a lot of sub-par contingencies that slow down your main plan.Quote:
If I'm somehow able to resolve a Sterling Grove, I don't have any difficulties to stop them. Also, if Grove got countered, I can still Replenish it. Sure you also can do so, but what are you going to tutor for? Enchantress's Presence, while you're on 4 life?
Yeah, I was playing more Chokes and Cities for a while. But Angel pretty much stomps every control deck, especially since they don't see it coming. The only creature it doesn't race is Dreadnought.Quote:
5) Postboard: Threat density. Sure this depends a lot on your sideboard, but with 2-3 Cities and 2 Chokes it's hard not to resolve a key spell. Additional Oblivion Rings also help.
What?Quote:
...not.
- Karmic Justice is THE MVP in that matchup (after Replenish). Nearly any time you resolve it you're in a favorable position.
A lot of this stuff is theoretically debatable, but now you're telling me that card advantage doesn't matter against Landstill?
And that Karmic Justice is MVP, when it doesn't do anything on its own?
I think it has a lot to do with your high curve and lack of good mid-game accelerants. Which is what I've been trying to get across.Quote:
- "Just draw more cards than them" -- yeah, I'd love to, but somehow I never draw more than one card per turn. Does this have something to do with them countering and EE'ing all my Enchantresses?
I didn't say you said that. I'm saying your lists seem to make this (fatal) assumption. And that's going to cost you games. Your deck isn't designed to fully take advantage of a single Enchantress. Mine is. Your deck gives this up in favor of a back-up plan. Maybe I'd understand this if the back-up plan were any good. But it's really not.Quote:
This sentence already implies a favorable position. I don't say I have won as soon as I have an Enchantress on the board (as you accused me to), but I say you're at least in a favorable position.
No. Just no. Karmic Justice and City of Solitude do absolutely nothing on their own. City must be played pro-actively to protect anything, and yet it fights for the same turn that you want to resolve your key spells, either slowing you down or creating a dead topdeck if you hadn't resolved an Enchantress up to that point.Quote:
If I don't counter this I lose:
3 City of Solitude <-- 3 Force of Will
3 Karmic Justice <-- 4th Force, 2 Counterspell
Karmic Justice isn't a threat. It's Enchantress's insurance policy. You can't insure a cardboard box. If you don't have anything else worth protecting, Karmic Justice is useless.
vs.Quote:
2 Replenish <-- Counterspell #3 and 4
2 Choke <--- fuck, I'm out.
1 Dovescape <--- :(
1 Blood Moon <--- had I just played MUC...
I'd also like to counter/remove this:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
3x Replenish
1x Choke
8x Enchantresses
1x Library
4x Angels
Also, if you don't view Enchantresses as must counters for control, I am forced to question your understanding of 'Who's the Beatdown?'
Without an engine to back it up, Confinement is a 3 mana fog.Quote:
2 Solitary Confinement (only one gets boarded out)
Playing them is irrelevant if you don't draw them. I could play 60 must-counters, but in a 1000 card deck it'd be irrelevant. Drawing more cards is the key to the control match-up.Quote:
That's how it goes. Don't think you could draw more cards than Landstill. Just play more Must-counter cards than they have counters.
Which is easier if you play 4x. Also, try Aura of Silence against Deed. It's not very good against EE, except in multiples.Quote:
Save your Replenishes for the end of the counter-baiting key-spell chain and do try to resolve Karmic Justice anyhow, because even after resolving 4 key spells, Deed and EE have the potential to totally wreck you. Boarding gets a little bit more difficult if they play Academy Ruins, because if they do, you really want to see a Ground Seal.
How is it that your friend claims you played my deck but you don't think you bring in Angels vs. Landstill? That's exactly what they're there for.Quote:
Now look at your list. 3 Replenish, 2 Justice, 1 Choke, 1 Dovescape. I doubt that's enough. With so few gamebreaking spells they might as well let the Justice resolve and just focus on countering/removing your engine and countering your Replenishes. Have you tested the UWb and 4C Landstill matchups? If you did, how did the games end in which you couldn't stick an Enchantress effect?
Any match-up where Replenish isn't game-winning is a game you should either win anyway(ie, no disruption), or lost anyway(ie, combo).Quote:
Last note: Your arguments about the third Replenish make sense, I'll add it at least to the sideboard. However, I'll never cut Moat for it. Maybe you couldn't see it in my reports but Moat was absolutely turning the board position around in 6 games, while being critical in 2 others, see my last post. That's just as gamebreaking as Replenish. And in fact, Replenish would never have been better.