[Deck] Survival

It may seem like a symmetrical effect, but magus is so much better than fulminator mage.

when you play magus against decks vulnerable to it, you've either just won the game, or changed the game in your favour.

Just fetch more basics, and only a few duals and you should be ok. Your main win con is goyf, anyway so that hasn't been that much of a problem for me.

Fullminator mage requires 2 off-color mana to use for a minimal effect, and magus is one off-color for a gamebreaking effect.

Try using it against landstill, loam and thresh for the most part, all of which run rampant in my meta.

Why is this the only thread not talking on endlessly about Vexing Shusher?

Considering the Shusher can be run strictly on green, isn't this guy just a little on the sexy side, allowing Survivals / Tarmogoyfs to be uncounterable, and making sure all of your one-ofs count? Plus it allows the deck not to struggle too mightily with Counterbalance and Chalice.

Should Shusher be relegated to the sideboard? Or is its effect strong enough to warrant maindeck slots? In either case, how many slots should Shusher take?

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Originally Posted by Jaynel

Should Shusher be relegated to the sideboard? Or is its effect strong enough to warrant maindeck slots? In either case, how many slots should Shusher take?

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Very possibly, but maybe not necessarily. If it's strong enough to swing Threshold in my favor from maindecking, then it might be worthwhile.

your supposed to beat threshold anyway
but if this guy is for real, i can deftinetely see him as a 1 of for landstill and other more controllish decks

Given that Survival decks generally have a positive control matchup, I see little reason to run this guy. Rather than pour a ton of mana into cards so they resolve through Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void, I'd rather just destroy them instead of play around them. If its regards to CB and CotV, then Krosan Grip is just as good. The fact that it would avoid FoW and Daze and Counterspell isn't that much of a kicker to me, because you still run Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy to handle them anyway.

Idk, I just don't think it's necessary given the disruption we already have.

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Originally Posted by Di

Given that Survival decks generally have a positive control matchup, I see little reason to run this guy. Rather than pour a ton of mana into cards so they resolve through Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void, I'd rather just destroy them instead of play around them. If its regards to CB and CotV, then Krosan Grip is just as good. The fact that it would avoid FoW and Daze and Counterspell isn't that much of a kicker to me, because you still run Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy to handle them anyway.

Idk, I just don't think it's necessary given the disruption we already have.

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I agree. It doesn't seem necessary considering all of the other tools the deck has. With most builds running 7-8 pinpoint discard spells, normal countermagic doesn't seem like a major issue. Additionally, you have recursion in the form of Witness/Genesis, which is pretty hard for most blue decks to deal with. Shusher would only be useful again Counterbalance and Chalice (since those trump both discard and recursion), but it seems narrow preboard and inferior to Grip postboard. It's definitely a good card, but I don't think it fits in Survival.

Alright, here's a question that might be able to spark some discussion.

In most Grb Lists, two types of removal for artifacts and enchantments are played, a smaller, less expensive critter that can handle only artifacts and a larger, more expensive one that can handle enchantments in the later game.

The popular choice for early game artifact removal seem to be Tin Street Hooligan. Yesterday, I ran Ingot Chewer instead and it was glorious. The easy recursion is the stone cold nuts against heavy artifact based decks (Stax, Dragon Stompy) and also keeps Vial off the table before it can do any damage. He can also be cast under a Blood Moon if there's no green mana available (I'm not sure if it ever will be relevant).

For enchantment removal, there seems to a divide between Viridian Zealot and Indrik Stomphowler. What are people's thoughts on the differences between these guys?

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Originally Posted by Jaynel

Alright, here's a question that might be able to spark some discussion.

In most Grb Lists, two types of removal for artifacts and enchantments are played, a smaller, less expensive critter that can handle only artifacts and a larger, more expensive one that can handle enchantments in the later game.

The popular choice for early game artifact removal seem to be Tin Street Hooligan. Yesterday, I ran Ingot Chewer instead and it was glorious. The easy recursion is the stone cold nuts against heavy artifact based decks (Stax, Dragon Stompy) and also keeps Vial off the table before it can do any damage. He can also be cast under a Blood Moon if there's no green mana available (I'm not sure if it ever will be relevant).

For enchantment removal, there seems to be a divide between Viridian Zealot and Indrik Stomphowler. What are people's thoughts on the differences between these guys?

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Ingot Chewer is actually really good. If I wasn't running white, then he'd be getting the nod over Tin Street Hooligan. Cheaper, faster, and happens to dodge Counterbalance and Chalice for 2. In a pinch a 3/3 body isn't bad either.

Rgearding the Zealot/Stomphowler debate, that's one of the primary reasons, if not the primary reason I run a 4th color (both Harmonic Sliver and Trygon Predator are much better than these). These guys are just too damn slow. At 5cc and effectively 4cc, I imagine the problematic enchantments, and maybe artifacts if Hooligan/Chewer was already used will already be getting their damage done by the time these guys see play. Despite being more expensive, I give Stomphowler a slight edge not because he's a bigger body, which is nice, but purely because he dodges Counterbalance much better than Zealot. I'll be damned if I ever see a Zealot resolve through a Counterbalance.


Anyway, I've been working on another list, but this time it's back to GBWr. I came to the conclusion that despite how sexy the blue was, white was doing better against what I wanted it for, combo matchups. So, I just overloaded the sideboard a bit more for combo, and I think I've come up with a rather strong list for combo post-board.

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis

3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
2 Eternal Witness
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Shriekmaw
1 Masticore
1 Fire Imp
1 Darkheart Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver

4 Birds of Paradise
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Orim's Chant


It basically came down to, for me, that Orim's Chant > Stifle for the combo matchups, which is obvious. My initial reasoning for Stifle instead was that it was good in a majority of the other matches while Chant is dead, but given that I want the combo matchup strong, and the other matchups were already favorable or even/slightly unfavorable, I wasn't too worried about them. Plus, for combo matchups, I think Gaddock Teeg might be better than Null Rod anyway.

You guys might also notice I'm running Dark Confidant again. The slot isn't absolute, but I was mingling with the idea of having a secondary engine again. I've been having some issues lately without Survival and Tarmogoyf can't carry the weight on its own, so I think Bob is the best shot I have to maintain card advantage. With only Anger, Genesis, Masticore, and Shriekmaw as the highcc cards, it isn't even a concern for life. I do, however, want to squeeze the 2nd Shriekmaw back into the deck. It's really a toss-up between leaving it out, or swapping it with the maindeck Teeg, which would need to find room in the board somehow, the 3rd Confidant, which is debatable, or Fire Imp, which would shut me off from having non-black removal, but given that I have StP I'm unsure as to how relevant this may be.

I think the blue splash needs more consideration. I have been running a UG counter-top list, with a 1-2 taiga splash for magus of moon with decent success. From what i can see, blue can do everything that black does, and do it better. Black really offers you 3 cards:

thoughtsieze
therapy
shriekmaw / big game hunter

In the thoughtsieze slot, you gain FoW. FoW may be 2 for 1, however it is a free spell. In place of therapy, you have access to counterbalance. Both these cards create card-advantage, but counterbalance has a much more lasting effect and (ussually) leads to more card advantage. Survival's curve is very kind to counterbalance, with numerous 1cc (birds, brainstorm, top, ponder, ranger) 2cc (goyf, survival, rofello, balance), and even some 3cc cards. With top, survival, and c-balance in play, your opponent will almost never resolve a spell. Lastly, in place of shriekmaw / hunter, you get a gem called ovinomancer. With anger in your grave, you can play ovinomancer, tap in response to its CIP ability (destroying a creature), and return it to your hand all for just 3 mana, and w/o having to return lands. With a rofellos, you can easily destroy 3 creatures a turn with ovinomancer.

The main problem i have had, is the lack of tin street hooligan. Since you run FoW and need UU for balance, i hesitate to add any more red than is necessary. I have been running scavanger folk, and stomphowler. I would rather have hooligan, but folk works on the same clock. I guess i just have a few questions:

Is there a good reason no one runs spore frog over spike feeder?
Is there anything in G or U better than scavanger folk for artifact hate?
Is 1 quirion ranger enough?
Can leylines be handled better than by just hoping you topdeck a grip?
Is tradewind rider even needed? I have never seen much use for it.
Is stifle worth running MD over ponder?

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Originally Posted by honz

Is there a good reason no one runs spore frog over spike feeder?
Is there anything in G or U better than scavanger folk for artifact hate?
Is 1 quirion ranger enough?
Can leylines be handled better than by just hoping you topdeck a grip?
Is tradewind rider even needed? I have never seen much use for it.
Is stifle worth running MD over ponder?

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• Yes - in the match you want him most (Goblin)(and thresh, maybe? Aydunno) he's worthless without vial (Sharpshooter, counterbalance for 1)
• I can't honestly say that I understood what "scavanger" folk are. Do you mean like Elvish Scrapper? There's Veridian Zelot, Ubtaki Orangatang, and... Krosan Grip?
• More than enough, somethetimes. Like, he's nutty with Rofellos. But if you have Rofellos and enough time to have a shitty 1/1 on the table in addition to one of the largest swords targets in your deck out in addition to a million forests then you're probably already winning.
• Leyline of the Void just stops your card advantage engine, not the "Endstep - pitch Birds for 'Goyf" engine. Having a tutorable creature (Stern Proctor for a :u::u: version maybe?) to deal with enchantments is badass, and recommended, but Leyline (or crypt) shouldn't ruin your day that bad ('specially when you can see Leyline literally way before you start working Survival magic)
• In the limited testing I've done with it I dug Stifle. I think my blue cards were 4 Force, 4 Counterbalance, 3 Stifle, 4 Brainstorm, 2 Mull Drifter (he was nuts with Genesis if you could set it up late game to house control), 2 Serendib Efreet (just for a cheap beater who pitched to force) and maybe 2 Ponder. Stifle is tits, though. It turns games where you would otherwise be unable to win into laughers, and gets nutty with tempo against Thresh decks.

Edit: Also, on the first point, Feeder is pretty good against burn and sligh decks, where as frog would be kind of extremely useless.

Edit 2: Unless you meant spike weaver. But I don't know if he's worth playing. The first bullet's reasoning works for the weaver too.

Edit 3: Scavenger Folk. You spelled it wrong. Yeah, that's the kind of thing I was thinking of. 'Scept that the ol' 'Tang (which will forever be known as the best nick name for Ubtaki Orangutan ever) has a bigger body for the same (total) cost of pwning the artifact.

Unless ensnaring bridge or angels or something are also out when you're trying to destroy artifacts and enchantments, trygon predator is great for this role (especialy with haste).

Spore frog is terrible. I used to run it and love it, but I eventually found that its role was better filled by other cards.

Quirion ranger, as lonelybaritone said, is great with rofellos, but untapping him twice in a turn is greedy. Instead, that second ranger should be a goyf or something to start winning the game (because, you know, you have survival out).

I ran this last Sunday and split with second.

//Decklist
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Shriekmaw
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Rofellos
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Anger

4 Surivial of the Fittest

4 Burning Wish
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
2 Bayou
5 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain

//Sideboard
4 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague
1 Anarchy
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Hull Breach
1 Regrowth
1 Rough/Tumble
1 Seeds of Innocence
1 Tsunami

I was wondering about a few of the MU for survival. since I don't have anyone to test with around here, I feel a little out of touch. How is survival doing against combo now with the permanent inclusion of black? against ceph, TES, belch? As I recall, Survival had a natural weakness vs combo. I also feel like Survival has a hard time vs Faerie stompy since they lay out threats and equipment very quickly. I haven't been able to test due to a lack of players around here in socal so I was wondering if anyone could tell me.

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Originally Posted by SickThoughts

List

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Is there a reason for Basic Mountain? That always throws me off when lists run it. You have Birds and most of the time the need for basics is a result of Moon effects that clearly leave you fine on Red mana. I mean it's only one card/slot so it probably hardly matters, but I'd think situations would come up where an opening hand with Mountain would be much worse than an opening hand of Green source.

Also did you miss Primal Command at all in the board? It originally struck me as a random card when I saw Wishboards, but after seeing it in action, it seems like one of the targets that shouldn't be cut. It can be clutch in quite a few situations, namely when you're dangerously low on life, or there is a very troublesome permanent in play, but it can also serve to bury an opponent once you have momentum going, with Command a land, pull a Witness, /repeat... Plow'd Under shenanigans. Maybe it's win more, but against like Burn or Goyf Sligh, the gain 7 search up Witness/Spike Feeder/Baloth is a pretty gigantic tempo swing. Again it's only one slot so it's far from a major issue, more just curious if its utility was missed?

Personally, my biggest reason for running a single mountain is wasteland can give me headaches when my guys want to be angry, but like you said, with moon effects it really shouldn't be a problem, I haven't tried switching up the mountain since magus was put in, so I'll probably give that a shot now.

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

Is there a reason for Basic Mountain? That always throws me off when lists run it. You have Birds and most of the time the need for basics is a result of Moon effects that clearly leave you fine on Red mana. I mean it's only one card/slot so it probably hardly matters, but I'd think situations would come up where an opening hand with Mountain would be much worse than an opening hand of Green source.

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I run a basic mountain for Burning Wish into Rough/Tumble. When you need an early Wish - board sweeper, you can't afford to lose your Taiga to Wasteland. As mentioned, Angry Dudes is also nice, especially in a long drawn out game against Landstill or any other slow decks with Wastes.

As for the Combo matchups with black in the deck, they are winnable, but it partly depends on how much of the sideboard you are willing to devote to combo. 3 Thoughtsieze and 3 Cabal Therapy mainboard are enough to help, but not enough to win it for you. Bring in some combination of, well, Orim's Chant, Extirpate, Gaddock Teag, Tormod's Crypt, even Duresses, and the matchup gets better. Favorable? Maybe not. Unwinnable? Certainly not. It's a rough matchup, and you'll sometimes just get blown out of the water. Other games you'll have infinite disruption and put it away before they can get set up.

Can someone enlighten me on why Magus of the Moon is good in this deck? Even when you are running many duals yourself?

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Originally Posted by P-AiR

Can someone enlighten me on why Magus of the Moon is good in this deck? Even when you are running many duals yourself?

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It's a silver bullet hoser against decks that are more reliant on nonbasics than you are (read as: Thresh, Landstill, 43land, etc). Survival has 4-5 Forests and 4 Birds so it generally can cast w/e it wants with a couple of those basics and a Bird, and the a few nonbasic Mountains. In matches against Goblins and Dragon Stompy, where Magus hurts more than it helps, you can just pitch Magus off to Survival and pull up Tarmogoyfs.

Yeah, I run the basic mountain because of things like wasteland. When you're playing against goblins and they keep porting your taiga's or just wasting them away, it becomes difficult to play red spells. >.>.

Magus is pretty insane though, it doesn't hurt you as much as other decks, besides like the other guy said you run a lot of basics. I know I dropped him against Standstill in one match and he didn't play anything afterward though I had to deal with his goyfs which wasn't hard.

Though on the comment of Primal Command, I've never used it to miss it. I don't think I own the card, but it seems rather expensive to be playing. Though, I'm not sure what I would cut for it if I were to try it.