[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by calosso

I completely disagree with stingscourger over gempalm. The fact that there is an echo on stingscourger just makes him so bad. Sure you can bounce goyf ,but gempalm can kill goyf. Stingscouger does not improve any match-ups that gempalm wouldn't.

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However, Stingscourger can be used in the early game where Gempalm is useless. You'll be hardpressed to get enough Goblins in play to kill Goyf in the face of Pyroclasm and burn, but Stingscourger can slow them down to your pace on the turns when it matters (and is obviously much stronger with Vial). It also allows getting through with Lackey against anything and does better against their damage redirection shenanigans, goyfs and even ghouls than Gempalm could ever hope to. At the very least, the card warrants more testing in my opinion, as a metagame call.

Tarfire
mana cost (r)
Tribal Instant- Goblin
Tarfire deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
common


So this is tutorable by goblin matron and goblin ringleader? Wow. Tutorable instant speed removal. The new set has some interesting tribal spells.

Problem: Still doesn't stop a goyf or 15 goblin/zombie tokens.

I'm thinking that the deck doesn't need it sonce it has Gempalm Incinerator already. If there's a black spell that's Tribal - Goblin with a playable cc that mimicks Terror/Dark Banishing, then that would be something to talk about.

@ Tarfire: Is really that better than Fanatic? I mean, fanatic can shot the opponent too and has a nice sinergy with piledriver and the combat step in general. :tongue: Is it because it's instant speed? you can't matron for it at instant speed unless you have vial and incinerator seems better as instant speed/uncounterable/with added CA removal. Summing it up, maybe it deserves a couple slots, but it's not that killing machine.

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

I'm thinking that the deck doesn't need it sonce it has Gempalm Incinerator already. If there's a black spell that's Tribal - Goblin with a playable cc that mimicks Terror/Dark Banishing, then that would be something to talk about.

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well, there's Fodder Launch:

Fodder Launch 3B
Tribal Sorcery - Goblin
As an additional cost to play Fodder Launch, sacrifice a Goblin.
Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn. Fodder Launch deals 5 damage to that creature's controller.

Yeah, it's a 2 for 1, but with added 5 damage. However, the cost is quite high.

A question: if there's a 4/5 goyf in play (sorcery, instant, creature, land) and you play Fodder Launch on it, will it die? I mean, fodder launch goes in grave as last step of the resolution. Is the creature still alive at that point?

I'll ask the question on the rules thread too.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

@ Tarfire: Is really that better than Fanatic? I mean, fanatic can shot the opponent too and has a nice sinergy with piledriver and the combat step in general. :tongue: Is it because it's instant speed? you can't matron for it at instant speed unless you have vial and incinerator seems better as instant speed/uncounterable/with added CA removal. Summing it up, maybe it deserves a couple slots, but it's not that killing machine.

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Fanatic is better in Goblins, I think. Mostly for one reason: playing Tarfire will pump your opponent's Tarmogoyfs, which are already troublesome as it is. Plus, as you said, Fanatic helps Piledriver, and it can easily translate into more damage overall.

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A question: if there's a 4/5 goyf in play (sorcery, instant, creature, land) and you play Fodder Launch on it, will it die? I mean, fodder launch goes in grave as last step of the resolution. Is the creature still alive at that point?

I'll ask the question on the rules thread too.

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You're right; Tarmogoyf survives. Likewise, if the only thing in the graveyards is a fetchland, casting Shock on Goyf will not kill it. State-based effects are constantly checked, so as soon as the spell resolves, Goyf gets the pump.

I think the 4cc is a bit too steep. I was thinking something along the lines of Smother.

Oh, and Goyf will die in the example you gave.

EDIT: I think. Doesn't Fodder Launch only go the graveyard after it resolves? so the 4/5 Goyf would get -5/-5 before the Tribal type hits the graveyard.

EDIT2: I guess I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

EDIT: I think. Doesn't Fodder Launch only go the graveyard after it resolves? so the 4/5 Goyf would get -5/-5 before the Tribal type hits the graveyard.

EDIT2: I guess I'm wrong.

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Going to the graveyard is part of a spell's resolution. MTGSalvation did a rules special on Tarmogoyf back when it came out:


From my primer on TarmoTog (the easiest way for me to find the quote in question):

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Originally Posted by A recent rules article on MTGSalvation:

Q: There are currently lands, creatures, and sorceries in both players' graveyards, so my Tarmogoyf is 3/4. What happens when it gets targeted by Sudden Death?

A: You will have one fairly lethargic, but living, Tarmogoyf.

State-based effects—those wonderful bits of rules that do things like cause you to lose the game, clean up Auras that are no longer attached to anything, and destroy creatures with lethal damage—also whisk away creatures with 0 toughness to the appropriate graveyard. However, SBEs aren't checked during the resolution of a spell or ability, but instead wait until after they've completely finished resolving and a player would gain priority again.

The last part of a spell's resolution is putting it into its owner's graveyard. Tarmogoyf is constantly rummaging around in people's graveyards trying to figure out how powerful it is (good thing it has eight fingers, otherwise it might have trouble with that). So by the time state-based effects are checked, the Sudden Death is already in its owner's graveyard and the Tarmogoyf has already gotten the go-ahead to pump itself up. The end result will be a 0/1 Tarmogoyf until the cleanup step, at which time it becomes a 4/5 again.

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If Tarfire is real, it's still lame. Goblins has never had any problem killing something with toughness 2 or less. In fact, that's why hardly anybody plays creatures with toughness 2 or less.

Fodder Launch is actually somewhat lame also. I'm not convinced the Black Splash is worth it any more than it was before. We don't run Black with Duress, Therapy, Planar Void, Snuff Out, and the ever overlooked Cabal Slaver at our disposal, and Lorwyn's previews haven't yet showed me anything that significantly increases's Black's power. Maybe if there's a Goblin Terror, or if those dual lands turn out to be Tribal Lands, we'll talk.

from www.mtgsalvation.com

Boggart Shenanigans
tribal enchantment - goblin
2R
Whenever a goblin card is put into your graveyard, Boggart Shenanigans deals 1 damage to target player.

This is basically a disciple of the vault for goblin decks that doesn't die to creature removal and also pings people when you cycle a gempalm or cast tarfire.

On the downside its a +2/+2 for opposing goyfs. On the upside its matron and ringleader and warchief friendly. (yes, warchief works on it, the wording will be updated to probably say something like "goblin spells you play cost 1 less mana. goblin creatures you control have haste.")

EDIT: or maybe it already says that, almost like wizards thought of doing the tribal type in ONS block and decided to save it for later.

Now this card has some promise. I really think even a one of Tarfire would be worth it as well.

The problem is, Goblins don't need solid cards, they need amazing cards since the deck is already totally insane.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

The problem is, Goblins don't need solid cards, they need amazing cards since the deck is already totally insane.

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This is exactly correct. Pay attention to this man. He's dead on.

Boggart Shenanigans is crap. Losing Goblins is not what you want to be doing, and spending a card slot for a card that deals a mere additional -one- damage each time you do? Count me out. I doubt I'd run it if it dealt 2.

As for Gempalm, sure, it pings them for 1. Big deal. It dealing 1 off a Tarfire is irrelevant because Tarfire is also crap. If we want to shock something, we'll just Matron for a Gempalm, not a Tarfire.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

This is exactly correct. Pay attention to this man. He's dead on.

Boggart Shenanigans is crap. Losing Goblins is not what you want to be doing, and spending a card slot for a card that deals a mere additional -one- damage each time you do? Count me out. I doubt I'd run it if it dealt 2.

As for Gempalm, sure, it pings them for 1. Big deal. It dealing 1 off a Tarfire is irrelevant because Tarfire is also crap. If we want to shock something, we'll just Matron for a Gempalm, not a Tarfire.

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No offense Taco but I think this is a little close minded. Its this kind of thinking that keeps any innovation from striking goblins. I think Boggart has some merit against decks that plan to win the long game after killing dozens of guys. It actually lets you still kill your opponent by playing blockers and chumping Tarmagoyfs all day.

Caterwauling Boggart
3R
Creature - Goblin Shaman
Each Goblin you control can’t be blocked except by two or more creatures.
Each Elemental you control can’t be blocked except by two or more creatures.
2/2

Could this stop the senseless Goyf-on-Gob violence? Threshold usually doesn't have that many dudes out (around 2-3), so only 1 Goblin gets blocked each combat phase. It's casting cost is a little high, but Vial can help with that.

Is this any good?

I think Ib Half Heart would be better. I think he's very underplayed in the wake of all these 4/5's. His token generating is amazing and does tricks if your going with a white splash for Geddons in the sb.

Im also revisting Pyromancers for the unexpected kills and Empty the Warrens nurfin.

What about Goblins with 4 Colors?

Here is my List:

3 Snow-Covered Mountain
3 Plateau
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

4 Aether Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:

4 Engineered Explosives
2 Armageddon
3 Planar Void
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Krosan Grip

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Originally Posted by Bane of the Living

No offense Taco but I think this is a little close minded. Its this kind of thinking that keeps any innovation from striking goblins. I think Boggart has some merit against decks that plan to win the long game after killing dozens of guys. It actually lets you still kill your opponent by playing blockers and chumping Tarmagoyfs all day.

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Would you also say that it's closed-minded to be certain you're going to die if you jump off a cliff? I mean, neither of us have obviously ever done it before.

Goblins is jam-packed with good cards already. To replace them, we need amazing cards. Not mediocre and bad cards. Tarfire is weak, and Boggart Shenanigans is both weak and a strategy that plays to lose.

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Originally Posted by Jaynel

Caterwauling Boggart

Is this any good?

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No. 3R for a 2/2 is way overcosted even in this deck, and the one we do run that fits in that Category is Ringleader, who is amazing.

Seriously, if you guys want an answer to all the Tarmogoyfs in the world, try Dolmen's Door. That thing is screaming Vial Goblins more than any of the Goblin tribal cards that have been spoiled thus far.

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Originally Posted by Bane of the Living

I think Ib Half Heart would be better. I think he's very underplayed in the wake of all these 4/5's. His token generating is amazing and does tricks if your going with a white splash for Geddons in the sb.

Im also revisting Pyromancers for the unexpected kills and Empty the Warrens nurfin.

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the problem with Ib is that they blow up before they inflict combat damage, which means that 4/5 goyf lives.

Maybe Mogg War-Marshall, its 2 power for 2 cc, echo doesn't always have to be payed, and it gives you 3 chump blocks for goyf, or two attackers to boost a driver.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

No. 3R for a 2/2 is way overcosted even in this deck, and the one we do run that fits in that Category is Ringleader, who is amazing.

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I don't think you can say that. The deck can support SGC and Ringleader, so you can't automatically rule out any expensive guys, as long as they work with your mana cheats.

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Seriously, if you guys want an answer to all the Tarmogoyfs in the world, try Dolmen's Door. That thing is screaming Vial Goblins more than any of the Goblin tribal cards that have been spoiled thus far.

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Urgh? That seems absolutely terrible. 2 mana for a non-goblin that lets your attackers live but doesn't guarantee them getting through isn't particularly amazing, to put it mildly. Onslaught would be better. Or Raging River.

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Originally Posted by sammiel

the problem with Ib is that they blow up before they inflict combat damage, which means that 4/5 goyf lives.

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Critical. Ib doesn't kill Goyf, so he sucks.

If I'm correct, then Goblins doesn't only gain the "Tribal Goblin" cards in Lorwyn, but also the "Changeling" cards (they are of all creature types even if not in play) to choose from. Which gives it...

A Goblin instant for W which gives all creatures +0/+1, thus combating Clasms.

A 7/7 Goblin for 4G which only requires you to Champion (remove from game) a creature in play, which to me sounds strictly better than Goon, and always larger than Goyf.


Those sound like they could be used...just imagine dropping the 7/7 off a first-turn Lackey...