[Deck] Belcher

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Legend

Cave-In is not a good choice. Yeah, it's free. If you're willing to dump another [red] card in your hand. Again, being situational. You have enough acceleration to get whatever color you need. That shouldn't be a problem in a deck STRUCTURED as a mana-producing machine.

And I play black in my list in Syracuse. And I've top 4'ed 9 weeks in a row with it in Syracuse - including the Hadley tournament. Black should never have been cut in the first place with acceleration like Dark Ritual which is an auto-pump into Belcher and use with Infernal Tutor and discard effects. My list runs black - and it's good. That's foolish to assume a good list doesn't run black, when you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

"General consensus" should never dictate over results. And results show that black as a subsidiary of the main two colors has proven time and time again to be critical. Dark Ritual itself has won me more rounds than I can remember. Even Pulp's list runs black. And I'm sure his is consistent as well. Apologies on the name of Goblin War Strike. Sorry I forgot what it's name was - it only sat in my sideboard for the last three months and has dust all over it.

---

Are you really trying to tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about? Youre the one suggesting cutting SB staples for terrible cards like Dry Spell and Mana Clash. And about black, the best lists over the last 9 months or so, particularly in its hayday back last summer/fall, have all been RG, playing 1 or 2 Taiga and Street Wraith/Pyroblast/Cantor MD in place of Dark Rit. Turning up a Bayou really sucks, and you can still play an Infernal Tutor SB if your not running Bayou/Rit. Top8ing in Syracuse with a black list doesnt say all that much to me, since I saw the best versions of this deck in its hayday, and they were all RG. Good decks (like this one) can and sometimes will win with subpar card choices, Threshold would (and used to) do well playing Werebear in the Tarmogoyf slot. Dont be so quick to attribute your success to a subpar choice, or to insult others who do know the deck despite your flame.

How can you attribute those cards as sideboard staples? What, because "everyone" plays them? Is that how we function in this forum?

What people don't understand is that just because people decide to play those cards in their sideboard doesn't mean they're instantly "good". The cards I presented are far from horrible. The truth is - cards like Pyroclasm and Goblin War Strike are essentially dead. They serve no way as an alternate method to kill or stun an opponent when the game is on the line.

Goblin War Strike is ONLY relevant when Moat is in play.
Pyroclasm is ONLY relevant when YOU'RE the one facing down an army of Goblins or a random Gaddock Teeg. Which should NEVER be the case because that's what this deck does best anyways.

What makes you think an Earthquake for one is bad? I don't understand your logic. What, because it's black? Color is irrelevant. You have enough colored acceleration to get what you need. Hell, even Earthquake itself is a fine choice. Maybe even Hurricane. Anything as a finisher. It's a starting point.

And Mana Clash is far from terrible. If you're going to lose anyways, who's to say you can't deal 6-8 damage to someone off that card when you're going to die anyways? I'm guessing you're one of those players who hated it when someone played Shahrazad and then you lost. I just don't see the logic. In reality, everything else in the sideboard is almost irrelevant other than your win conditions.

And how can you play essentially 8 dead cards in the main build? Opening with a Pyroblast when your opponent isn't playing blue? Street Wrath when you can just play another useful card?? It doesn't make sense and you're putting the main build at a gamble. That's not good.

And don't question my success with my build. It's there. Keep on topic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Legend

How can you attribute those cards as sideboard staples? What, because "everyone" plays them? Is that how we function in this forum?

What people don't understand is that just because people decide to play those cards in their sideboard doesn't mean they're instantly "good". The cards I presented are far from horrible. The truth is - cards like Pyroclasm and Goblin War Strike are essentially dead. They serve no way as an alternate method to kill or stun an opponent when the game is on the line.

Goblin War Strike is ONLY relevant when Moat is in play.
Pyroclasm is ONLY relevant when YOU'RE the one facing down an army of Goblins or a random Gaddock Teeg. Which should NEVER be the case because that's what this deck does best anyways.

What makes you think an Earthquake for one is bad? I don't understand your logic. What, because it's black? Color is irrelevant. You have enough colored acceleration to get what you need. Hell, even Earthquake itself is a fine choice. Maybe even Hurricane.

And Mana Clash is far from terrible. If you're going to lose anyways, who's to say you can't deal 6-8 damage to someone off that card when you're going to die anyways? I'm guessing you're one of those players who hated it when someone played Shahrazad and then you lost. I just don't see the logic. In reality, everything else in the sideboard is almost irrelevant other than your win conditions.

And don't question my success with my build. It's there. Keep on topic.

---

Yes, what everyone plays does define what is a staple. Many people in this format play Force of Will, Swords to Plowshares, etc, thus they are staples of the format. Just as Pyroclasm, and to a lesser extent Cave-In and Goblin War Strike, are staples of Belcher, and just as Dry Spell and Mana Clash are not. These are definitions, not opinions.

Goblins War Strike is good when Moat is in play, or you have gotten through an attack with your swarm of ETW tokens but are now facing down a big army of Goblins/Zombies, it will win the game for you here. Pyroclasm is good when someone else has a Goblin/Zombie army, but you do not, or if you can afford to lose your army less than they can afford to lose theirs. These cards are NOT dead, they actually help you win games, unlike Dry Spell and Mana Clash which rely on the fact that you are "going to lose anyways". If you are planning on losing anyways, something else is wrong here other than your Burning Wish targets. Dry spell is worse than Pyroclasm simply for the fact that Clasm can kill zombie tokens, commonly made in masses by Ichorid, you know, the 2nd best deck in the format by the March top8 numbers. Also yes, in the case someone has Mage/Teeg, Clasm answers this also, and it also is better against goblins if they summon an army, perhaps after you whiffed on your belcher after flipping the Bayou you shouldnt have been playing in the first place. I dont know what you are talking about with Shahrazad, but it shows your arrogance and how judgmental you are, and this whole back and forth affair shows how you are condescending and refuse to even consider you are wrong because you have made a few top8s in Syralose. Again, good decks can win with subpar choices, and good decks can always improve. Please stop being so immature and debate the cards rather than call my experience into question and repeatedly champion your local top8s and alleged mastery of the archtype.

Right, yeah, anyways:

Goblin War Strike is god awful. How in earth can someone justify playing that when you should have won anyways with those tokens? Good against Moat? How can you justify getting to turn FOUR or FIVE anyways? Without winning, you must have been doing something wrong, sorry. All you're doing by playing that card is justifying your clock as slower and inane. It makes sense, but it isn't optimal. Perhaps Dry Spell isn't either.

Don't consider being put in a bad situation "doing something" wrong, that's just dumb. There's another reason you play Burning Wish, and it's to look for answers when you're on the ropes (apparently something you don't understand). Goblin War Strike is too situational and redundant when you should have won with those tokens anyway. I recommend either Earthquake or Hurricane. They are true finishers which you can pump A LOT of extra acceleration into - assuming just like you do - that they've been hit once for ten or so. Kaervek's Torch isn't bad, either.

What bovi is saying with goblin warstrike being good is that it can win you the game after one round of swinging with tokens.

Lets put an example out there you have just made ten tokens say turn one. Turn two you swing with tokes putting your opponent at ten and burning wish for goblin warstrike and win on turn 2. Instead of having to pass the turn and hope they don't draw an engineered explosives, cave-in, flamebreak, etc. Because you need to get in with at least 2 rounds of swinging with those tokens .

Thats why belcher plays it in the wishboard to make the token kill potentially faster.

Right, but first you're going to have to expend your resources getting all those tokens. Second, you'd have to have a SECOND Burning Wish in your hand in order to get that card. Then, you'd have to have enough mana to do it all in one turn. Again, too situational. If you have those tokens, swing. If your opponent has Explosives (for zero), they'll blow it. Your card is a sorcery, where their activation is an instant.

It's like the most narrow of circumstances the card would actually be considered useful. I've never needed it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Legend

Right, but first you're going to have to expend your resources getting all those tokens. Second, you'd have to have a SECOND Burning Wish in your hand in order to get that card. Then, you'd have to have enough mana to do it all in one turn. Again, too situational. If you have those tokens, swing. If your opponent has Explosives (for zero), they'll blow it. Your card is a sorcery, where their activation is an instant.

It's like the most narrow of circumstances the card would actually be considered useful. I've never needed it.

---

Dude, I use Burning Wish -> Goblin Warstrike all of the time, it's how you race Pernicious Deed and Pyroclasm.

@Lonely Baritone,

TES isn't going to walk into a 'Clasm against Belcher tho', TES is going to become the control deck and disrupt Belcher with Orim's Chant and keep them off of Goblin Tokens with Burning Wish instead. Belcher is just fucked in the Storm combo mirror, so there is no point in addressing it.

The reason I said, "I don't understand the reason people use Pyroclasm" is because Cave-In is going to be more mana/time efficient for the mass removal effect and Chain Lightning is going to be more mana/time efficient for the targeted removal effect. You are never going to be able to actually wish for Pyroclasm against 2 Meddling Mages, because the second Meddling Mage is going to name Burning Wish, you just SB Pyroclasm so they have to name it.

Between Cave-In and Chain Lightning, I just don't see a point to Pyroclasm.

Goblin War Strike is good because sometimes, dare I say it, the opponent may be playing Magic also and have FoW/Daze to set you back a few turns...And Pyroclasm and/or Cave-In is better than Dry Spell because, playing black or not, red is an easier color to get than black, and Clasm kills zombies and x/2s in goblins.

Look, Im through here. If anyone wants anymore of my insights on the best build of the deck PM me, or go read the old CRET Belcher thread in which I helped develop the deck last summer. Im done being accused of flaming and looked upon as some Belcher noob who cant comprehend the new "sekret tek" of Dry Spell and Mana Clash, when in fact I picked up, optimized, and played this deck in tournaments way before most others here. Adios.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bovinious

Goblin War Strike is good because sometimes, dare I say it, the opponent may be playing Magic also and have FoW/Daze to set you back a few turns...And Pyroclasm and/or Cave-In is better than Dry Spell because, playing black or not, red is an easier color to get than black, and Clasm kills zombies and x/2s in goblins.

Look, Im through here. If anyone wants anymore of my insights on the best build of the deck PM me, or go read the old CRET Belcher thread in which I helped develop the deck last summer. Im done being accused of flaming and looked upon as some Belcher noob who cant comprehend the new "sekret tek" of Dry Spell and Mana Clash, when in fact I picked up, optimized, and played this deck in tournaments way before most others here. Adios.

---

We value your opinions in this thread. My only reference to those cards weren't necessarily specifics but opening the door to new possibilities. Everyone is entitled to their opinion here. I choose to play black in my build and I've had a great deal of success. If someone else has had success without it, that's fine. There's even a variant that has popped up in Developmental using blue. We should all be open to new possibilities - especially in lists so tight.

I just want to say I have seen many hands with my belcher list which is a extremely standard list. Where I might as well burning wish for goblin war strike since i need the storm count anyways. Since I'm casting Burning Wish just for storm copies on Empty the Warrens as stated you can play it right away or the turn after when you attack.

There are times when sure you storm up as much as you can and you only have 3R left just enough for empty the warrens.

But I have seen many hands where I get 7+ mana easily with no belcher and burning wish+empty the warrens in hand. So thats where it comes in handy and can be useful.

Some games its gonna be a worthless card but thats why it only occupies one slot in the SB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by monopoman

I just want to say I have seen many hands with my belcher list which is a extremely standard list. Where I might as well burning wish for goblin war strike since i need the storm count anyways. Since I'm casting Burning Wish just for storm copies on Empty the Warrens as stated you can play it right away or the turn after when you attack.

There are times when sure you storm up as much as you can and you only have 3R left just enough for empty the warrens.

But I have seen many hands where I get 7+ mana easily with no belcher and burning wish+empty the warrens in hand. So thats where it comes in handy and can be useful.

Some games its gonna be a worthless card but thats why it only occupies one slot in the SB.

---

When you cast Burning Wish, chances are you have no Goblins in play anyways. You'd have to open with a Warrens itself, build up storm, and then combo out. The you'd have to have a Burning Wish or another Burning Wish to get War Strike. So, wouldn't make sense just to - attack? Getting mana to combo out isn't the issue here. It's what to Wish for and is it the best option for the situation at hand. This card isn't. It says no to only one other card in the format which sees rare to little amount of play. Seriously, though: If you were staring down lethal damage (assuming you've nailed your opponent for, let's say, ten - and they've got a few Goyfs out that are 4/5's and they've wiped your board out with an instantly activated Explosives) and you top-decked a Burning Wish - what would you Wish for?

*Remember: Goblin War Strike isn't so hot when your opponent almost certainly can wipe your board at instant speed. The trick here is to locate a card in your sideboard that can win you the game. That's the problem with the sideboard: Have you noticed all the staples like Diminishing Returns and Infernal Tutor? They win you the game immediately. We need to find cards that can win you the game just as well as they can. Goblin War Strike - albeit one red mana - allows your opponent to go ahead and get an Explosives active because you need to spend at least one turn getting your Goblins in play from a hard-cast or Wished-Warrens. You're better off doing something called attacking - which, in turn, should free up a slot in the sideboard.

I agree and disagree a little here, but I really don't feel the wish targets are THAT important. Certain people like to play different versions of the deck but I totally agree with A Legend that the Goblin War Strike is pointless, you have to spend to many resources to cast it and the SECOND Burning Wish. That is the kicker, out of all of the times I have seen Belcher played I have only seen the card played once, and it didn't have any effect on the game, it was just win more. Now this seems to be the current topic, Pyroclasm or Cave-In and are they useful?

In a full wish board I would run 1 of each, but if you only play one Pyroclasm > Cave-In and here is why, Gaddock Teeg. He shuts the whole deck down if he resolves and Cave-In doesn't remove him. I think either/or has to be run in case you play against a combo mirror and they take a chance to go for Empty or in case you need some help against aggro and you can't storm up enough for Empty the Warrens to matter. People are also talking about Chain Lightning as removal in the SB. Personally I like Firebolt over that card cause in a few instances the flashback will be relevant and lets face it, the only creatures you need to kill are 2 toughness anyway ... Teeg, Meddling Mage, ... etc (neither is going to kill Goyf or Dreadnought thats for sure :) Here is the SB I am playing around with and it has been pretty effective so far:

3x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Tombstalker
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Reverent Silence
1x Pyroclasm
2x Shattering Spree

Of course I play 4x Cabal Ritual and 4x Dark Ritual in my deck to support this SB and honestly it has not been disappointing. Try it out against Thresh, it is quite effective.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

Now this seems to be the current topic, Pyroclasm or Cave-In and are they useful?

---

See, here's the thing:

They have their uses and they've seen play. The problem is they don't see enough play off a second or third Burning Wish to really do anything but delay the inevitable. You knock off a few creatures and you stay alive. Good luck, because now you've wasted a very critical top-decked win condition to off some creatures (which your opponent should have a better chance playing another threat than you top-decking ANOTHER win condition). They're perfectly fine choices, but I hesitate to advocate a card that sees little to no play in a deck which banks on it's sideboard at times to win, not just stay alive. I like the Thoughtseizes and Goblin Welder theory in the sideboard. They milk Force and they can be a serious threat games two and three as your opponent will almost surely board out creature removal, turning sacrificed jewelry into immediate win conditions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Legend

When you cast Burning Wish, chances are you have no Goblins in play anyways. You'd have to open with a Warrens itself, build up storm, and then combo out. The you'd have to have a Burning Wish or another Burning Wish to get War Strike. So, wouldn't make sense just to - attack? Getting mana to combo out isn't the issue here. It's what to Wish for and is it the best option for the situation at hand. This card isn't. It says no to only one other card in the format which sees rare to little amount of play. Seriously, though: If you were staring down lethal damage (assuming you've nailed your opponent for, let's say, ten - and they've got a few Goyfs out that are 4/5's and they've wiped your board out with an instantly activated Explosives) and you top-decked a Burning Wish - what would you Wish for?

*Remember: Goblin War Strike isn't so hot when your opponent almost certainly can wipe your board at instant speed. The trick here is to locate a card in your sideboard that can win you the game. That's the problem with the sideboard: Have you noticed all the staples like Diminishing Returns and Infernal Tutor? They win you the game immediately. We need to find cards that can win you the game just as well as they can. Goblin War Strike - albeit one red mana - allows your opponent to go ahead and get an Explosives active because you need to spend at least one turn getting your Goblins in play from a hard-cast or Wished-Warrens. You're better off doing something called attacking - which, in turn, should free up a slot in the sideboard.

---

Dude, that logic doesn't make any sense to me, since when is attacking with Empty the Warrens and wishing for Goblin Warstrike mutually exclusive? The opponent being able to remove tokens at instant speed is irrelevant, you're suppose to wish for Goblin Warstrike before they resolve Engineered Explosives in the first place.

Goblin Warstrike just turns Burning Wish into a Time Walk for 1RR, the rest of the argument is topical, in a do or die situation the deck has to go for Diminishing Returns, Tendrils of Agony or some other finisher, but that has nothing to do with whether or not Goblin Warstrike should be in the SB. Of course you need either Empty the Warrens or 2 Burning Wishes in hand, but that's the entire point of Goblin Warstrike in the SB, it turns the superflous win condition into a useful card.

[regarding Manamorphose]Yes, I'll never ever have to use Chromatic Star or Sphere in my Belcher list. Never again.

I've seen a lot of people reference Gaddock Teeg as a concern when considering sideboard options. I'm not going to argue that he doesn't stop this deck cold, he obviously does, but how often does he actually get played against you? I have to admit all the times that I've brought belcher to a tourney I've never once seen a Gaddock Teeg across the table... or any other table for that matter. This might just be a metagame issue, I'm just curious how much the card actually sees play elsewhere. I've at least looked over all the other forums in DTB and haven't seen a single copy in any of the lists there either. I'm not saying the card shouldn't be kept in mind, just want to know how much of a presence he is.

Also @goblin war stike:
Regardless of whether there are any Kithkin Advisors in your meta, you should almost certainly be prepared for Engineered Explosives/Pernicious Deed as they are likely going to be the most common answer to a Warrens kill (aside from countermagic). Both EE and Deed come online to kill goblin tokens on your opponents third turn, so depending on the number of tokens you made and who won the die roll this likely means you'll lose your goblins when you need only one more attack to win. I honestly can't think of another card that would let you pull out the win here. It is certainly a situational card, but the situation is relevant enough to include one copy in the Sb imo - it is just so important to win before your opponents third turn when they run EE/Deed.

on a side note, if you must run some kind of direct damage finisher aside from Chain Lightning or Cave-in in the board, Demonfire is probably worth considering as you will most likely reach hell bent when ramping up your mana to play it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sunshine

Also @goblin war stike:
Regardless of whether there are any Kithkin Advisors in your meta, you should almost certainly be prepared for Engineered Explosives/Pernicious Deed as they are likely going to be the most common answer to a Warrens kill (aside from countermagic). Both EE and Deed come online to kill goblin tokens on your opponents third turn

---

Second turn. All your opponent needs is two land with no counters on it after dropping it turn one. Demonfire was another consideration of mine.

right, second turn for EE of course, sorry. But still the same reasoning applies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sunshine

right, second turn for EE of course, sorry. But still the same reasoning applies.

---

Well actually, now it doesn't, because you've given away one full turn for an answer to an opponent. Remember, to expend your resources for a two turn lethal Warrens, you're going to have to cast 5 or 6 spells. You won't have any extra mana to play another Burning Wish then War Strike, because you've given an opponent a full turn to answer. This is, of course, assuming you've hit the $10,000 spot on Plinko three times in a row (meaning you've opened an EXTREME god hand with an EXTREMELY godly top-deck.

The problem with the majority of this disagreement is that you're counting Belcher out once the ETW tokens are gone. Often enough the Belcher player can sit on his Token barrage and build up his hand to go for another win-condition. Like, is there any real problem with just playing draw-go when you're the combo deck?