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Yeah, what he said... The only thing that my build has going for it is, it's extremely consistant at bashing face. I mean alot of gro variant's I've watched or have seen being played stall out mid-game due to the draw engine. To qoute Mr. Nightmare from tonight's testing " What the fuck! You draw like double the amount of cards I do!" I think this is due to my high amount of scrying effects and draw spells, this has alot to do with how the deck performs.Quote:
Originally Posted by GodzillA
I've been working on the white splash of Grow for the moment. I do think combo/control decks are a better matchup for it, but against aggro and maybe the mirror I think its at a disadvantage. Again, it comes down to sideboarding and playskill.
I would like to defend the use of mental note, I believe in the mirror especially its very important to get threshold first, and I can't find a better way than mental note. One mana for 3 cards in the yard and you get to draw a card, thats a pretty good deal to me. My assortment of draws spells is the typical 4 visions, 4 brainstorms, 3 note, 3 predict.
I have to tell you I do fear mental note in the mirror, I don't know why, but I do.
Adding worship into the sb is a big plus that white adds.
How does the crowd feel about mental note and is AK another good card drawer?
I know it's long, but if you're interested in the answer to this question you ought to read the entire thread. Both cards have been discussed extensively. The consensus tends to agree that Mental Note is hot, and AK is not. Some people prefer Predict to Note, but Note is seemingly the most popular of the tertiary cantrips in both builds of Gro.Quote:
Originally Posted by thenick2000
AK isn't needed any longer. (Pure) card advantage just isn't what it used to be in 1996. Mental Note is a much better tempo card, and this is a tempo deck. Moreover, Mental Note is also correctly cost (AK was always one too many colorless mana more than you really want to pay), and it has a much more relevant effect on the deck, effectively taking a turn off the deck's fundamental turn.Quote:
How does the crowd feel about mental note and is AK another good card drawer?
In short, AK = :frown: / Mental Note = :smile:
Thanks for the quick answers guys. I'm going to try 3 mental note and 3 predict as my draw engine in addition to the staples of 4 visions and 4 brainstorms. I do think mental note is better, because with predict you need a card to set it up to become effective.
The beatdown version of the Grow with the white splash that I've been running includes 4 werebear, 4 mongoose, 4 meddling mage, and 2 mystic enforcers. Is there another good creature for the white version of Grow to consider that I haven't thought of? I did try the quirion dryad, but I wasn't satisfied with it. I was wondering what your thoughts are?
That's pretty much it, but I don't know what you're complaining about. Those are all incredibly efficient and powerful threats and they're all crammed in a deck designed to abuse them.Quote:
The beatdown version of the Grow with the white splash that I've been running includes 4 werebear, 4 mongoose, 4 meddling mage, and 2 mystic enforcers.
I suppose if you wanted to be even more aggressive you could drop the Magi for Serendib Efreet. You're giving up your advantage against combo, but there you go.
I was just wondering if there was another good creature to conisder. I do believe the 14 creatures I play is as good as it gets, but I'm always looking for ways to help improve the deck if thats possible. The reason I like the white version is because of the great matchup against combo and other control decks. I do believe Landstill could be a problem, but thats why we use a sideboard.
Is exalted angel anything worth considering in the deck, or does that just make the deck worse?
As a metagame call, you might fit in Galina's Knight. That's worked for others (e.g. GP: Lille second place deck).Quote:
I do believe the 14 creatures I play is as good as it gets, but I'm always looking for ways to help improve the deck if thats possible.
The Landstill match isn't as hard as you think. You're the aggro deck in that match. And they're removal is slow (Wrath, Disk) and you have more counters than them, and most of yours are free (Daze rock here). Only fetch non-basics if you need to, otherwise, go for the basics to keep an aggressive tempo. Set your first mage to "StP"; it's academic from there.
As someone who loves Exalted Angel, I have no idea what you'd gain other than distorting your curve for something unncessary. But honestly, I've never tried her in Gro, and for good reason, I think.Quote:
Is exalted angel anything worth considering in the deck, or does that just make the deck worse?
It was just a thought, but I would probably agree it doesn't belong in there. I orginally had Galina's Knight in the MD, but didn't feel like it added enough firepower. I haven't played the landstill match, but meddling mage helps out a lot I would assume and then sb gives you pithing needle which is very bad for them.
Funny you mention Ms. I win games all on my own Angel. When I first made gro after Ninja won big arse 2, I played her over Enforcer. I found her to be too much mana for gro. It's giving your opponent 2 timewalks in theory. 14 creatures is alot for U/g/w gro, put it does give the deck an aggressive edge which can be good for it. Let us know how you like it.
I'm an aggro deck player, so I believe I have to stay aggressive in order to win. Damn control decks. I guess aggro with control as back up is a pretty good mix, why haven't I thought of this before?
After winning the GAGG tournament several people there asked me,"What do you play Magma jet over?" How do I answer that? Several people said, "Wow, magma jet I never considered that before." The guy who I beatr in top 2 was one of them. Does magma jet make a differance? There was 2 other red gro players there and neither of them played jet, neither of them made top 8. I'm not saying that they didn't make it because of jet, but could they of not made it due to not having answers or too many cantrips? Also people after the top 2 match-up were asking me how I sideboard for certain match-ups. Does sideboarding make a differance? Do people lose with this deck because failure to know how to sideboard in different match-ups? I took 1st at altered states again today. Is it me carrying the deck or is the deck carrying me? Getsickanddie said why arn't other gro players running jet over f/i? I think people need to start questioning other peoples choices in cards and test out somemore. Sorry that this post is pointless but I wanted to necro this dead thread.
I would just like to state a point. If you run predict over mental note in the red splash of Grow, then I do believe having visions, jet, and brainstorm to be very useful in the deck.
I ran 3 notes and 3 predicts with the standard 4 bolts and 4 fire/ice in Grow. As I look back I should of ran just 4 mental notes and maybe if I had them the other 2 spots with magma jets.
I'm going to focus on the white splash for now with 4 mental notes and a beatdown of 14 creatures and I'll let the thread know how that does throughout time.
Congrads on the win Wastedlife. Maybe next tournament I'll be playing something I'm more confortable with. :)
Honestly....Magma Jet is insane. I love fire/ice, don't get me wrong. But a lot of the time it is sending both damage to a dude, or one to a dude and a player. Sure it is hot when you get to two for one with it, but the quality of draw Jet sets up for gro is insane. At the Running Gagg tournament I dominated the other U/G/r gro player who was not running magma jet. Did I beat him solely because of his lack of magma jet? Of course not. But he did have less answers to my threats.
Running 4 mental notes should never in any way shape or form be compromised. Mental note is your quickest way towards thresh, never cut the 4th one for anything.
As for AK I strongly advise not to ever run it. Predict in nearly all cases is a better card.
I don't care for either, personally. And you already have 12 dedicated cantrips slots:Quote:
Originally Posted by Binary Star
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
It's debateable if you really need any more than that. I don't think so, though I'm still running 2 Sleight of Hands beyond these 12 until something else comes along. However, SoH is almost always the first card I'll sideboard out against about everything (except for pure combo).
So Thresh finished 11th place, with no more in the Top 20 at the Duel for Duals. If you haven't seen the build, it's here:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=15667
Things to note:
-Both Red/White splash
-No creature finisher
-Standard Brainstorm (8 Fetches), Serum Visions, Mental Note cantrip package
-2 Maindeck Pithing Needle
-Fire/Ice over Magma Jet
-Only 3 Lightning Bolt
-No Swords to Plowshares
-*NO* BASIC LANDS
Some of these issues are remedied in the board with 2 Swords and the 4th Lightning Bolt, but there are some more interesting choices there as well, with Chill and Hydroblast making the cut.
So it begs a few questions: Are both splashes the way to go? Do we need a finisher? Are Basics overrated?
This is The Nick's opinion on the archtype know as Grow.
I believe both the red splash and the white should have a big creature, being either Fledging Dragon, or Mystic Enforcer.
I like the draw package of Brainstorm, Mental Note, and Serum Vision.
Pithing Needle main is not just a good idea, but I feel is necessary in the deck.
I believe the white version is better for a known metagame and far superior in control and combo matchups.
The red may have an advantage game 1, but I believe white gains the advantage back in games 2 and 3 if the proper sideboard is built.
Grow not making Top 8 at Duel of Duals is a bit surprising, but be aware this is still a tier 1 deck along with Goblins.
I believe basics should be included in a decklist for Grow, unless you decide to play 4 colors which basics shouldn't be included.
Can someone shut up Lego Man?
No, he's free to have his opinions as long as he presents them in an organized and civil manner. You, however, have chosen to violate those precepts, so it is YOU who has been silenced---Frogboy
At Running Gagg's Mox Tournament, I played Gro/w to a top8 finish, losing in the t8 to the only other competent (no offense Nick, you're still learning the deck) Gro player, Wastedlife, running Gro/r. I lost game three due to a terrible play mistake, although Bryant will probably say otherwise. Game 1, White Gro loses. Plain and simple. There is little chance of you being able to compete in the damage race. Games 2 and 3, you get all kinds of fun things from the board. I have finally begun to board for the Red mirror, as it seems prevalent enough now, and the Red hate works vs. Gobs, as well. Here is my updated board, which is two cards off my board for the Gagg:
1x Pithing Needle (2 main)
2x Naturalize (Bryant didn't put these in, and would have lost game 3 because of it, if I played the right sequence of threats)
2x Tormod's Crypt/Phyrexian Furnace Still can't decide.
4x BEB effects
2x Absolute Law House against the mirror, goblins, etc.
2x Worship Game Winner.
2x Chill This makes UGr's life VERY difficult.
Why not one of each? Or if most people are running Crypt, run Furnace so you can hit Crypts with Needle, or vice versa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare