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Sorry for this newbbie question: in a decklist more or less like the one urdjur has posted, how would you use the SB Cataclysms? I mean, against who and what would you take off, superficially?
PD: I have edited a huge error caused by my poor english, sorry
Well, you would still be running 4xSotPC in the SB obviously (otherwise you can say goodbye to the ichorid MU), but I would think epochrasite is better against a random opponent (ie g1) than SotPC. The only problem then is the reduced flexibility caused by the cuts in the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by urdjur
You do make a point, but what I attempt to do with my list (I'll speak in my name here, but I would guess that the situation is similar for urdjur) is not tweaking D&T against landstill. The improved landstill MU is one of the consequences of this altered list, and certainly something I've had in mind while constructing it, but by no means the only one. Rather, it's partly based on different concepts (making it almost a different deck, but with enough similarities to be classified under "D&T"), which is not exactly what I would call "tweaking". You end up with different MU results (both positively and negatively) all across the field and a deck that sometimes plays out very differently from a normal D&T.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
Also,
In a meta composed only of those decks I would certainly play the classic build, butQuote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
a) it's not always possible to know what the meta will be like (and there's always the possibility to encounter the random black sheep)
b) landstill (as well as intuition-control) is regularly present in a developed meta where the decks you listed would appear
As a rule of thumb, I would say that the further your opponent deck is from an aggro-control template, the better cataclysm gets. Now, this is obviously a simplification, so apply it smartly. But in general, I would side in cataclysm mostly against aggro (goblins mostly) and control (MUC, landstill, intuition-control, enchantress).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ikurei,TheGodsSlayer
I second the answers from Maëlig to Kuma. It's also pretty difficult to define Death and Taxes. Finn has previously said that D&T is basically MW aggro-control with Mangara. Maëlig commented on my "aggro-parfait" list previously in the N&D forum, and I thought that was sufficiently different to merit its own thread.
Now I've basically taken what I learned there and stuck it in the Karakas/Mangara shell that is D&T. If you want to call it something else than D&T to separate the builds, I'm calling it Value Added Taxes (a bit cheeky, but wtf).
SB Cataclysms work normally against decks that typically overextends one permanent type on the board (land.dec, goblins, enchantress, affinity, landstill - to name a few). Sometimes you also need GY hate to make it count. The only added benefit is that Boseiju works as a "silver bullet land" with Cataclysm against landstill, since Cataclysm is probably the least resolved spell ever against landstill.Quote:
Sorry for this newbbie question: in a decklist more or less like the one urdjur has posted, how would you use the SB Cataclysms? I mean, against who and what would you take off, superficially?
But landstill is pretty unique in its ability to run counters AND overextend a permanent, and that's the only time we need clysm + boseiju. Against other decks running counters, boseiju works well with Abolish and Mine Excavation however.
The most important thing with the sideboarded sorceries/instants is change of strategy. Landstill will see wasteland/dustbowl game 1 and react as they sideboard. Goblins will see Ghostly Prison and react. Faerie Stompy will see Aura of Silence and react. They will guess wrong, because game 2 doesn't bring more of the same, it brings more of something new that accomplishes similar things - which is something else entirely. That's my plan at least - of course, when testing in small groups, the trick looses its novelty value quickly. But I think it's solid thinking for a tournament.
You are spot-on here, Mealig. And I am glad you brought that up because I had not thought to put it in those terms. You may remember that a lot of people have been removing Cataclysm from their decks. I had been doing this myself for awhile, but I have since returned them. The main reason revolves around what decks it hoses and what decks D+T is strong against. They are opposites. So Cataclysm gives you a powerful out against an opponent that would otherwise pound you.Quote:
As a rule of thumb, I would say that the further your opponent deck is from an aggro-control template, the better cataclysm gets. Now, this is obviously a simplification, so apply it smartly. But in general, I would side in cataclysm mostly against aggro (goblins mostly) and control (MUC, landstill, intuition-control, enchantress).
Elves
Enchantress
Stax
BGw control
Intuition control
Goblins
MUC
Mono-white control - I have been seeing on MWS
Landstill
etc...
I have to take objection with the "White aggro-control with Mangara" definition of D&T. Adding Mangara & Karakas to a deck doesn't make it "Death & Taxes" any more than adding Mogg Fanatic to a deck makes it a "Goblin deck".
The primary difference between WW & D&T is WW focuses on speed while D&T focuses on utility. D&T does tricks with Stonecloaker, Flickerwisp, Mangara, and Karakas, while WW goes straight for the throat with Geddon/Cataclysm to seal the deal. That said, D&T is still very much an aggro deck that can bring the pain turn after turn.
I define aggro as a deck that tries to do as much damage to the opponent as quickly as possible, usually through playing efficient creature(s) almost every turn, while clearing out blockers. Examples of pure aggro decks are Vial Goblins, Goyf Sligh, Elf Aggro, BDW, Zoo, and Burn.
Under this definition of aggro, I can't call Maelig and urdjar's lists "aggro." There just isn't a concerted effort to deal as much damage as quickly as possible. I think D&T is at its best when it's swinging with creatures first and pulling tricks second. The idea of a Weatered Wayfarer/Enlightened Tutor toolbox is contrary to an aggro plan. Finding silver bullets is nice, but when they come with tempo and/or card disadvantage, they usually aren't worth it. When you only have one solution to a deck, they only need one answer to beat you.
I'm fine with Trinket Mage toolboxes, as they take up few cards, don't have card disadvantage, and because Trinket Mage can be useful as soon as you play it. I'm fine with ITF's Intuition toolbox because the cards are useful in almost every match. Wishboards are fine because they don't take up maindeck space and don't cause card disadvantage. But I can't get behind a deck that uses two seperate toolboxes, one of which has card disadvantage, while the other one requires you to be behind in tempo. urdjar's list runs 18 cards that are extremely situational, or that find extremely situational cards.
Right now, these decks are a mile wide and an inch deep. Having silver bullets is no replacement for a solid gameplan, because one of these is stopped by a single removal card/counterspell, while the other can withstand several such cards.
You may have a solid Landstill/Combo matchup, but I think you've severely weakened yourselves against the rest of the field. The idea looks good on paper, but I don't think it will translate into results.
Look, I know D&T is all about tweaking it to your metagame, but you'd be better off in some metagames with a different deck. If you want to have strong matchups against Landstill, Storm, and Ichorid, why not run Dragon Stompy?
Hi!
What would you guys recommend boarding against Merfolk-decks? Seems to be the winning deck in my meta right now.
Cataclysm seems like a good choice, but you shouldn't have too much trouble with Merfolk to begin with. Their creatures are generally worse in combat than yours, they can't Islandwalk you easily, and their mana denial plan is mostly inneffective. We also run enough spot removal to make their lives miserable.
Yeah. Trying to have silver bullets and aggro at the same time is a time-honored impossibility. Just ask ATS or Welder Survival.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
The unfortunate truth here is that you are going to have a category of opponents that will beat you. If you go with the creatures I have chosen, traditional Landstill and fast combo will be an issue while most other opponents will be in your favor. If you swap some of them out for Glowrider and Hokori, you will have improved your game against probably Landstill and Enchantress and some other stuff at the expense of some of the decks you can currently roll. You can go with Children of Korlis and True Believer in the main to be hard on combo. But then all the other matchups get weaker. It's really a matter of what you are planning to see. Also, remember that Legacy decks are fantastic at finding answers. So the one factor that seems to remain important, is the ability to apply life total pressure while these disruptors are on the table. Otherwise you are playing a Jack Elgin deck.
Oh, and try spot removal for those merfolk. Sunlance or Condemn should be nice.
After some tinkering, here is my current list:
// Lands
4 [LG] Karakas
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
13 [UNH] Plains
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
// Creatures
2 [PLC] Stonecloaker
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 [SC] Silver Knight
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [SHM] Runed Halo
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Stonecloaker
SB: 1 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
SB: 1 [SC] Silver Knight
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 3 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
The biggest problem I have with it is the one-of cards in the sideboard. They came as a result of me working Runed Halo into the main deck on account of glowing reports from another D&T player in my meta. There's lots of flexibility here, and few truly dead cards while maintaining a decent aggro plan.
Sideboard strategies ATM, are:
Aggro Loam: -3 Isamaru, -3 SotPC, +2 Jotun Grunt, +1 Silver Knight, +2 Tivadar of Thorn, +1 Oblivion Ring
Goblins: -3 Runed Halo, -1 Flickerwisp, +3 Tivadar, +1 Silver Knight
Dreadstill: -3 Silver Knight, -3 Isamaru/SotPC, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Runed Halo, +4 Orim's Chant
Ugr Swan Thresh: -3 Isamaru, -2 Stonecloaker, -1 Flagstones, +3 Jotun Grunt, +1 Runed Halo, +1 Silver Knight, +1 Oblivion Ring
Storm: -4 StP, -1 Stonecloaker, +4 Orim's Chant, +1 Runed Halo
Armageddon Stax: -2 Runed Halo, +1 SotPC, +1 Oblivion Ring
Painter (non Imperial): -2 Silver Knight, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Runed Halo
Ichorid: -3 Oblivion Ring, -3 Mangara of Corondor, -3 Runed Halo, +3 Jotun Grunt, +1 SotPC, +1 Silver Knight, +4 Orim's Chant
Suggestions?
Hi!
What would you say is the best SB-card against burn?
Kitchen Finks
Auriok Champion
Circle of Protection: Red
Warmth
Silver Knight
Other?
Helpfull cards vs Devastating Dreams would also be nice.
Tip: Ronom Unicorn/Kami of Ancient Law is gold vs Counter Balance, Deed, Survival etc.
I was thinking of playing one of those, but the problem is, counterbalance will just counter it since its CC = 2. and deed will blow up without giving you priority. so i dont think it will work that well to be honest.Quote:
Tip: Ronom Unicorn/Kami of Ancient Law is gold vs Counter Balance, Deed, Survival etc.
I played this deck on a big dutch tournament (142 players) and ended 44th. (went 4-3-1) i also lost 2 matches becouse of play errors, which were really stupid :p
i played the following list:
// Lands
12 [9E] Plains
2 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [LG] Karakas
// Creatures
3 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [PLC] Stonecloaker
3 [CHP] Serra Avenger
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
3 [LE] Glowrider
3 Epochrasite
2 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [EX] Cataclysm
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Gaea's Blessing
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [WL] Orim's Chant
SB: 4 Wheel of Sun and Moon
Cataclysm goes side, rings go in, i sided clysm out many times for ring.
further more, epochrasite is going out. it is not good in this deck.
Wheel of Sun and Moon is going to stay in for a while, it helped me alot vs Aggro Loam and Team America (tarmogoyf which only feeds on my.. almost empty grave and good luck hardcasting that tombstalker..)
How about chalise as a sideboard card?
it helps vs combo and burn
And why do people play runed halo? is this card that good in this deck? and which card do you often name?
ohyeah, i found out that humility is a very very strong card against this deck..
Well, the thing about unicorn is that you don´t have to hold it in your hand the whole game. People usually dont play their Counterbalance turn 2 but wait until the game is more stable. I also think that playing 1 is not enough, Death and Taxes is not a deck full of silver bullets but rely on stability.
Yes, Runed Halo is that good; it's the ultimate silver bullet. I frequently name Grindstone, Tarmogoyf, Tendrils of Agony, Countryside Crusher, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Terravore, and Goblin Charbelcher. Or you can just name their biggest creature in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pienterekaak
It's amazing against any deck with a limited number of kill conditions. Vs stuff like Goblins, you side it out.
On a side note, between Aether Vial, Oblivion Ring, Mangara, and to a lesser degree Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker, Counterbalance can often be dealt with. But active Countertop is almost always gg.
mmm maybe its worth to test it if it has enough targets main deck.
i might play it instead of glowrider, which serves almost the same function.
and countertop can be played around with D&T, its not always easy, but countertop combo isnt always game against it.
Well, let me put it this way: I've won one or two games against active countertop (Sensei's + Counterbalance + mana). While we have answers like Oblivion Ring, Aether Vial and Mangara, they also have extra counterspells, and often burn for Mangara and Krosan Grip for Ring and Vial.
I would argue the opposite. Runed halo is not reliable enough to be run MD, and not game-breaking enough to be included in the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
It's versatile obviously, but also very reactive, which goes against the strategy of the deck. You want to play disruptive creatures, not defensive enchantments.
Also, if you include this to stop combo: don't, it won't work. Canonist, orim's chant and even glowrider are much better fitted for that role. Runed halo is even worse against combo than true believer, that's how bad it is.
As for
The ones you listed are all good options imo, don't forget true believer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceridan
I would go with one of the most versatiles, ie that is not only usefull in the burn MU. So probably not cop: red (again, too defensive, gobs will just overrun you) or warmth.
How is Runed Halo any more unreliable than Oblivion Ring, or any other permanent in the deck? As for game breaking, ask Threshold how it like a Halo naming Tarmogoyf. Or Dreadstill how it likes a Halo naming Dreadnought. In fact, most of the top decks in the format run 1-3 win conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maëlig
All answer cards are, by definition, reactive. Do StP, Oblivion Ring, and the Maze of Ith you insist on running go against the strategy of the deck? I agree that Runed Halo would be better if it came with a 2/2 body and didn't leave creatures around to block, but one of the best things about D&T's aggro plan is that we run fliers and equipment, so mucking up the ground isn't a huge deal.
Orim's Chant and Ethersworn Cannonist are the two best cards we have against combo. But they have no applications outside of the combo match, while Runed Halo at worst stops a creature from attacking or puts four dead draws in an opponent's deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maëlig
I don't see how a two mana card that shuts off combo's primary win conditions is bad against combo. The fact that it has nearly unlimited other uses makes it far better in D&T than Cannonist, Chant, Glowrider, and True Believer.
Seriously, punt the storm combo matchup already. There's no good reason to feebly shake your fists at storm with D&T when you could run something with a positive storm matchup.
As you pointed out, Halo leaves creatures behind to stop ours from getting through. That is a huge difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
Quote:
Originally Posted by saspook
I run nine three power fliers in my list. D&T has the best air game in Legacy outside of Faerie Stompy, so leaving their creatures on the ground isn't terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
Oblivion Ring and Runed Halo compliment each other nicely.
O-Ring
- Stops artifacts, enchantments, and creatures.
Runed Halo
- Stops instants, sorceries, and lands (and most creatures, some artifacts, and some enchantments).
Give Runed Halo a shot, I doubt you'll be disappointed. Those of you who like to pretend D&T is a control deck have no excuse as it fits your strategy even better than mine.
to be honest, i dont think runed halo is very effective against combo, you name tendrills, they go with empty the warrents, or bounce it back with solidarity. so combo has mainboard answers against it. so then its mostly creature removal, which oblivion ring is better at. but i might give it a try just to see how it works.