[OLD] UGr Threshold

Personally, I think that Fire/Ice is better than Jet for the simple reason that it is never dead in your hand, the way Jet is when there are no (small) creatures on the board - drawing a card > Scry 2. However, I'll be trying out Jet in it's place for the sole reason that I'm running four Counterbalance main, but I don't really expect Scry 2 to matter much there.

Also, has anyone tried Dryad here ? I've been shying away from them since I'm playing Control Thresh and want to drop Balance rather than cast my creatures on turn two, but some people keep insisting that Dryad is still pretty good on turn four or five...can anyone comment on that ?

As for the decklists I see here...I really think Vedalken Shackles to be better than Control Magic in so many situations. They are a bit easier to remove (Needle and artifact removal), but people shouldn't board these in against you anyway unless you're playing four Tops or Scepters main. And three mana is a lot less than four in this deck...

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Originally Posted by georgjorge

Personally, I think that Fire/Ice is better than Jet for the simple reason that it is never dead in your hand, the way Jet is when there are no (small) creatures on the board - drawing a card > Scry 2. However, I'll be trying out Jet in it's place for the sole reason that I'm running four Counterbalance main, but I don't really expect Scry 2 to matter much there.

Also, has anyone tried Dryad here ? I've been shying away from them since I'm playing Control Thresh and want to drop Balance rather than cast my creatures on turn two, but some people keep insisting that Dryad is still pretty good on turn four or five...can anyone comment on that ?

As for the decklists I see here...I really think Vedalken Shackles to be better than Control Magic in so many situations. They are a bit easier to remove (Needle and artifact removal), but people shouldn't board these in against you anyway unless you're playing four Tops or Scepters main. And three mana is a lot less than four in this deck...

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I ran into salvagers game a couple of weeks ago, with SB Colossus. I was uber glad I had Control Magic instead of Shackles. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by BoardinCharlie

I see that a lot of people are running fire/ice in their builds. Is he main reason since it pitches to force of will to be run instead of magma jet? How often do you find yourself finding 2 for 1's on fire/ice. Is this used in a particular match up? Just wondering because I would personally keep the theme of the deck going with card quality, granted card advantage is great but the times in when this would occur are very rare. I would much rather kill a pile driver/chief then dig 2 than kill a lackey/matron or just trade one for one on any of the larger butted creatures.

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The last tournament I played in I cast Ice four times and pitched Fire/Ice to Force of Will three times. I won a game where I Iced a 4/4 on two turns to attack for 14 (seven damage twice.)

Fire/Ice has always been very strong.

Here's the build I was playing around with for a few hours on MWS:

U/G/r Aggro Thresh

Lands (17)
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Creatures (12)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells (31)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet

Sideboard (15)
3 Stifle
3 Loaming Shaman
3 Krosan Grip
2 Rolling Earthquake
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vedalken Shackles

The SB is probably really bad but it's just what I threw together so I had something rather than nothing.

I was first considering running a 16 threat creature base but then decided that I'd rather have more burn. Dryad just isn't a good creature when 16 spells in the deck are green. Wild Mongrel was my other choice, which could potentially replace Mental Note as a form of grave filling, but the blue spell count is already at a low 20 with Mental Note and I didn't want to drop any.

This deck is basically balls to the wall aggro, as far as a Threshold frame is concerned. The deck plays out like G/R Beats. The deck runs 12 fat green guys and 11 burn spells, 7 of them being 1cc for 3 damage spells. This pushes the deck into dropping guys early consistently and burning away early blockers consistently. Once the ground game gets stalled for whatever reason (Wrath of God, too many chumpers, etc etc) the 11 burn spells just go to the dome.

While I really dislike Mental Note in Threshold because it doesn't increase card quality at all, I found it necessary for this build. I haven't understood why people think Mental Note is better for Tarmogoyf than Werebear, but I run them both anyway. With 8 Threshold guys, Mental Note is key to helping establish Threshold early or rebuild it later. This deck wants Threshold early... this deck wants to be the beatdown as early as possible.

Since this deck focuses alot more on the early game tempo and alot less on controlling the gamestate later on, and because this deck wants to invest it's mana on guys and burn (and cantrip) rather than leaving UU open, I don't run any Counterspells and I run the 4th Daze. Instead of controlling the gamestate later on during the match, the deck simply uses the additional burn spells to finish the opponent off (against Control decks, for example).

The deck utilizes Chain Lightning rather than Fire//Ice because Chain Lightning costs 1cc and does 3 damage... this is relatively important for the early game tempo, enabling me to drop guys while playing burn, cast cantrip and play burn, etc. 7 1cc burn spells increases the speed of the decks early gameplan, IMO. While I understand that Fire//Ice is a great tempo piece by tapping big guys in order to swing through, I plan on simply tossing the burn to my opponent's face by the time they stabilize the ground. I also run Chain Lightning because it's a Sorcery and this deck has a lack of Sorceries to abuse with Tarmogoyf.

I run Magma Jet rather than Fire//Ice because this deck utilizes a far lower amount of card quality due to Mental Note instead of Sleight/Portent, giving the deck a core of Brainstorm/Visions for card quality purposes. In this respect, Magma Jet gives me a little additional card quality so the deck isn't lacking. It also helps play into the gameplan by digging for creatures early while removing blockers, and plays into the gameplan later by digging for more burn while burning my opponent.

I find this version interesting due to the larger number of creature drops and larger number of burn spells, making it feel alot more like G/R Beats with Blue.

I like that build a lot, Hanni. However; I'd probably run Seal of Fire over Magma Jet. Your reasoning that you included Fire/Ice over Magma Jet is based primarily on the casting cost, so Seal of Fire beats Magma Jet in that category. The scry affect of Magma Jet just seems gratuitous when your cantrips already give you the card selection manipulation you require. Perhaps most importantly, Seal of Fire is an enchantment and thusly has synergy with Tarmogoyf.

Pet names for Tarmogoyf are not allowed, by decree of Me.

~ Nightmare

Mind if I call You ugly, then?

I was considering Seal of Fire in place of Chain Lightning, and I will be testing that change shortly, but I would not replace the Magma Jet's with them. Magma Jet is extremely essential in the 4/4/4 Brainstorm/Visions/Note build because Mental Note itself does not provide card quality and 8 cantrips with no additional draw is simply not enough, in my opinion, to keep the deck fueled properly. While Magma Jet doesn't actually cantrip, it has Scry 2, which digs 2 cards deep to improve card quality. So the deck actually runs 12 card quality cards (because Mental Note isn't included), which I feel is important for the deck.

Eh, I don't know. My instincts tell me that Magma Jet gets more credit than it deserves, especially in this deck. Regardless I'll be testing both cards out in your build.

Well, then again, replacing Chain with Seal isn't necessarily a great idea either because the deck goes down to 4 sorceries... maybe pulling Magma Jet is the correct call... but then again, I'm not sure how necessary being able to grow Tarmogoyf's to 5/6 without the opponent's help is though...

I'm just gonna do a little testing on the burn configuration and figure out what works best, although I'm positive I want [at least] 11 burn spells MD.

I don't play ***** alot but Magma Jet is too little for too much in this deck. You already have Brainstorm and Serum Vision for scrying effects and that 2 dmg won't help vs much. Also Quirion Dryad is a better 2 drop than Werebear. In 1-2 turns it will be bigger than thresholded werebear. Also Chain Lightning is meh. Run more draw like portent which also help with FoW.

my 0.02$

You really don't want to lose magma jet. This deck runs so well because of card selection, not necessarily because of raw power (with the exception of the creature base). Topdecking well, more keepable opening hands, etc. make scry so powerful here. Personally, I think that if you want 11 burn spells your list looks fine. I might, however, cut a single chain for another cantrip.

I think that 11 burn, when you considering all the deck thinning going on, is too much. This is what I'm considering:

4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Seal of Fire

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Werebear

2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

From my testing, more burn spells is never really "too much." At least not the way I play the deck, in the version of the deck I play. You want to see burn early and you want to see lots of it. It clears the way for your men so that you're not sitting around getting chumped. Once the opponent stabilizes, you throw burn at their face and win. I can't begin to explain how many games I've won against all kinds of randomness like Stax and such simply because I had a large enough burn density to finish the game off with burn after they stabilized. I don't run any evasive creatures to get around a stalled out ground game, either.

As good as 3 more burn spells is--also consider 3 Spell Snare. People have been masturbating over it in the UGw Thresh thread for the last few days.

I don't like spell snare in either version of thresh, simply because its versatility is limited. If I leave mana open, even one, I want to be able to stop whatever my opponent does. Spell snare doesn't allow this. Additionally, there are plenty of dangerous spells that cost 1, 3, or 4, and I really want answers to those. If you're going to give slots over to more hard counters, just make it counterspell. But, this is just personal preference, as I know other people swear by the card.

I really don't like tarmogoyf when you only have 4 sorceries. Sorcery is one of the big four card types (others being creature, land, and instant) that you should try to consistently get in your grave (and never assume your opponent's grave will help you out). Besides that, seal of fire is just inferior to chain lightning against most decks, Goblins as an exception (it's not good giving them free dome shots, and seal kills anything chain does here). Though I suppose having a 3/4 for 2, with the potential to get bigger, isn't all that bad.

The ability to potentially give Tarmogoyf +1/+1 is comparable to dealing an additional 1 damage with the burn spell. Considering the deck runs only 4 sorceries, however, I may yield in your favor to Chain Lightning being the superior choice. I'm not a fan of Magma Jet, however.

Sorceries or not, Tarmogoyf is bonkers in any Thresh build--especially ones that run Mental Note. Mental Note a creature and sorcery = 3/4 2nd turn Tarmogoyf. Mental Note a creature and sorcery and use a fetchland = 4/5 Tarmogoyf. Late Game he will always be atleast 4/5 for 2 mana. He's bonkers in Thresh.

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Originally Posted by Cidolfus

The ability to potentially give Tarmogoyf +1/+1 is comparable to dealing an additional 1 damage with the burn spell. Considering the deck runs only 4 sorceries, however, I may yield in your favor to Chain Lightning being the superior choice. I'm not a fan of Magma Jet, however.

Sorceries or not, Tarmogoyf is bonkers in any Thresh build--especially ones that run Mental Note. Mental Note a creature and sorcery = 3/4 2nd turn Tarmogoyf. Mental Note a creature and sorcery and use a fetchland = 4/5 Tarmogoyf. Late Game he will always be atleast 4/5 for 2 mana. He's bonkers in Thresh.

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If anything Tarmogoyf makes slower cantrips like Portent and Serum Visions better since you can easily make him a 4/5 with only three cards in the GY!

I <3 Tarmogoyf.

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

If anything Tarmogoyf makes slower cantrips like Portent and Serum Visions better since you can easily make him a 4/5 with only three cards in the GY!

I <3 Tarmogoyf.

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I know that Goyf also uses the opponent's Mental Note against him, and with cards like Portent, Visions, and BS, you can easily find more Goyfs to win the Goyf race.

Goyf is crazy, especially because it turns your counterspells into Battlegrowths x2 in the early game.

Has anybody Tried Greater Gargadon in the deck? I mean, it's a 9/7 that costs :r: and if you play it against Landstill decks first turn, it usually comes into play!

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Originally Posted by Samshire

Has anybody Tried Greater Gargadon in the deck? I mean, it's a 9/7 that costs :r: and if you play it against Landstill decks first turn, it usually goes on the stack around turn 8 then gets countered, Stifled or Plowed!

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Fixed.