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You don't have to play Shusher the turn you combo off. I've played it the turn before plenty of times, if it goes unanswered you win. No questions about it. Even if they kill him, that's not a more relevant spell out of their sideboard. Or if you don't draw him and they're sitting on removal you just win. Like Breathweapon said.
Bad writing, my bad. I'm saying Needle has the advantage over BEB when Shusher comes in the same turn your are trying to go off. Otherwise, it's BEB all day long. Shusher owns, no doubt of that.
Needle gets SBed in to stop Vexing Shusher, BEB gets SBed in to stop Vexing Shusher AND 8 other spells in the deck. That multi-purpose role is what makes BEB better than Needle, not how BEB vs Needle compares against stopping Vexing Shusher.
Again, it was only a response to what Mental said (bold part):
Of course BEB is better than Needle against TES. It wasn't the point, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
Oh, my bad, I'm so not SBing in Shattering Spree for Pithing Needle like ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
Pithing Needle permanently shuts down all the Shushers in your deck, and can't be hit by your own REBs. It doesn't seem like such a shabby SB piece to be brought in by Threshold, especially the UGR varieties that don't play REB and have no graveyard hate in their board besides Crypt, which sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
It's pointless to SB in Shattering Spree to remove Pithing Needle, SBing in answers to answers to answers is just one big circle jerk, I'll leave Vexing Shusher in the SB and gain the dead card advantage at that rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
You can just Burning Wish for Shattering Spree, that's more than enough.
I am going to be playing this deck in a somewhat large legacy torny. (30+ people) I have a question, If you sit down against an unknown opponent and have the option to on the play, do you go "all in"? or do you play it safe and wait to see the dreaded trop, brainstorm go which doesnt even tell you if your playing thresh dreadstill or landstill.
The bottom line is, If you lose the roll you have to wait to go off. If you win do you wait or go for it right now. Or is it all about reading your opponent.
If you see trop, brainstorm, go instead of trop go, end of your turn (or in response to your spell) brainstorm, you can be pretty safe in assuming your opponent is playing some sort of combo deck (well, they could be terrible at magic too, but it's safer to assume that your opponent isn't bad).Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
I Guess I should be more spesific, How would I respond to the following plays.
Trop go. (assume threshold??)
Tundra go. (assume landstill)
Sea go. (assume threshold??)
Volc go. (assume UGr Thrash?)
UW fetchland go. (assume landstill?? since thresh usualy runs some green fetches over this)
UB fetchland go.
WG fetchland go. (assume survival or NLQ?)
RG fetchland go.(assume survival or Red thresh?)
Any NON blue dual go (go off anyway??)
If i know the deck I can play around it but the whole balls to the wall thing could be suicide if you dont have any protection.
i do, because passing the first round with the kill in your hand vs random only opens up the possibilities for more disruption than just fow (thoughtseize, daze, spell snare, etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
If you don't have disruption, go All In, if you do have disruption, wait a turn.
All right that seems like a good rule of thumb is that if you dont have to play magic against them you dont want to. If you actualy have to play make sure your playing disruption. also A question is, when mulling do 2 cantrips equal a bissnuss spell, in testing it tipicaly equals 1 on turn 2. I havent tested the threshold matchup yet (not enough only 4 times) I am spending the whole FNM testing UGW UGB UGR and UGwb thresh for like 6 hours friday so I will have a bit of testing vs each I would just like background on each thresh matchup, which ones play EE, counterbalance, thoughtsieze. how many bisnuss spells do I need to win, how many chants?
EDIT: im also questionable as to bringing this deck, I havent tested the landstill matchup at all, I assume its a goblin highway to the win, but I could be wrong(even with 1 chant effect in hand then it could be a turn 2 thing)
Double cantrips depends on two factors, 1) The number of ETW in your MD and 2) Brainstorm + Brainstorm, Brainstorm + Ponder or Ponder + Ponder. The more ETW in your MD, the bolder you can be with your cantrips, if you have a shuffle effect, the bolder you can be with 2 cantrips.Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
UGW, UGR, UGB and UGWB break down like this,
UGW) It's favorable, I've done the testing and UGW's Meddling Mage and Blue Elemental Blast aren't enough to prevent Vexing Shusher from dominating the match up.
UGR) It's marginal, you don't have to deal with Meddling Mage, but you do have to deal with Magma Jet, Fire/Ice and Pyroclasm killing your Goblins.
UGB) It's unfavorable, Thought Seize discarding Orim's Chant and Vexing Shusher is murder. You really need to be aggressive with ETW if you want to have a shot.
UGBW) It's unfavorable, same as UGB except SB Meddling Mages complicate matters further.
Landstill isn't so bad, if possible just drop Vexing Shusher and ride it to a win, most of the game comes down to Vexing Shusher vs removal. Alternatively, you can ETW go on the play, when they can't Stifle you, and either race Pernicious Deed or finish them with Tendrils of Agony.
I can't answer the # question, it's sort of situationally dependent.
I run 1 ETW md should that be changed? My list is the same as the frount save 1 difference.
-2 ponder +2 cabal ritual, I cant bring myself not to run a 2/2 split I feel it slows you too much
Thank you for the MU analisis I found that the UGWB matchup comes down to "got Tseize+ CB?"
As a side note a playtesting partner of mine has started calling ETW empty the winnings, because it just gets there on first turn with such little effort.
The only 2 things that I didnt get from that (Not that that wasnt EXTREAMLY helpful) is that I dont know what color combos run EE, Im assuming 4 C does but i dont know other lists.
Are there really any TES lists but Bryant's? :laugh:
No one ever thinks anyone but Bryant has a list, lol
But one of the main reasons, I suppose, is that the core list of TES really only has a handful (6) of movable slots.
I don't like 4x Ponder at all, really, and have actually been using 2x Ponder 2x Manamorphose.
I didn't like it at first, because in my goldfishing it was mediocre at best.
However, in actual play, it has been outstanding! More often that not, it makes :u: :w: or :u: :b: .
It makes Brainstorm and Ponder better, because of what you can do with the cards you put back.
You can have much better first turns when you have those "red heavy" hands, because you can have :u: :u: or :b: :b: if needed.
I want to fit a 3rd, and MAYBE TRY a 4th, but I dunno what to move just yet.
Any brainstorming on that? Who has been actually playing Manamorphose so far?
Wastedlife uses 2 Draw 4s, while I use 3 ETW, it's the one aspect of the deck we both disagree on, but either configuration is viable. I don't believe less than 4 Ponder is even debatable, I've gotten to the point where I'd rather see Ponder than Brainstorm in the opening hand.
I tested Manamorphose, and it was inconsistent at best, I wouldn't bother running it again.
The moveable slots are these right?
2 draw 4s
4 ponder
my slots of those include
2 draw 4s
2 ponder
2 cabal ritual- As aquard as it is to go into late game(you know like 3rd turn :laugh: ) These help hugely there.
I think that 6 can trips is PERFECT for the deck more seems like too many fewer is just not enough. More ETW could be VERY good I might test it I also might test it as a 1/1 split because there are times when you just want to IT for a draw 4, and it sucks not being able to.
I really recommend more cantrips, there's no reason not to at this point in time. Our other options aren't as strong, Ponder finds LED which is a whole hell of a lot better than Cabal Ritual. More ETW sucks at this point in time because everyone is prepared nowadays for ETW and it's no longer as effective as it once was. As for Infernal Tutoring for Infernal Contract, I've never, ever, done that. One more mana and you can go off with Diminishing Returns or two more mana and win with Ill-Gotten Gains, your chances to win after one of these cards is miles greater than ever winning with a Contract. Contracts are for setting up the win or as a storm generator for when drawn.Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
What do you board out/in vs threshold (OBV shushers and REBs/pyroblast in but what out) I was thinking cantrips and draw4s. Is this right?
I will test the ponders again but I dont know.
EDIT: I also looked at past T8s this deck has had. What ever happened to Bob and abance I had good experiance going mana mox bob. Also If that is the perpose of Draw4s, then is there a need for 1 in the SB? Also, the Cabal rituals, allow you to sculpt your hand into double bisnuss which can single handedly own an opponent. Lastly is grapeshot better or worse then pyroclasm. Granted pyroclasm can remove multi mage or mage+ teeg. I was just curious if it was that much better then G shot