Spell Snare shines against Survival most. But I don't think that adding Counterspell over Spell Snare is a huge deal in either of those matchups. I can see how it would work in a Ur build though.
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Spell Snare shines against Survival most. But I don't think that adding Counterspell over Spell Snare is a huge deal in either of those matchups. I can see how it would work in a Ur build though.
So, I've been reading a lot of this thread recently and tinkering aroung with a list. I couldn't decide between green or white, so I chose not to choose and run both. So far, I haven't had color issues, just be causious about when you pull the duals.
I played this deck in the magic-league trial on monday:
Lands: 20
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Tundra
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
Creatures: 8
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
Instant: 18
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [TSP] Trickbind
Artifact: 4
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
Enchantment: 9
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
Sideboard: 15
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [TE] Chill
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [US] Annul
Now, for those of you who are good at math, you will notice there are only 59 cards in the main deck. I originally had 3 Swords to Plowshares in there, but I took them out and put in 2 oblivion rings and forgot to put a 60th card in there. I realized that after the 3rd round and told the tc. He told me to add a basic land and I would get a game loss in the following round. In the 4th round I kept a 1 land hand on the draw with a top. I figured that being able to see 4 cards before my 2nd land drop would be sufficient to dig up a 2nd land, it wasn't. With 1 land, I countered 4 of his spells (with FoW, 2x Daze, Spell Snare) and got him into topdeck mode. I finally got a 2nd land on like turn 5. He then dropped Wasteland and then Sinkholed (his 3rd of the game!) the other. He was playing some GB deck with discard, LD, and some annoying critters, at least as far as I could see. Im confident that I would have been able to beat him had I not gotten the game loss.
Anyway, I think that 4 Dreadnoughts is a bit too much, though sometimes 2 isn't enough (the 3rd was the card I never added). It lets me use my stifle effects more proactively and not worry so much about having dead cards later.
Tarmogoyfs have been very effecient beaters, I have won more games with them than with Dreadnought. I think that is mostly due to the fact that I use the Stifles fairly liberally so I'm usually digging for one to get my Dreadnought in play. I am thinking a 2nd Trickbind is in order.
A quick note on my view of card numbers:
4 of means you want to see it early, often, and in multiples. Having 2 in your opening hand isn't bad.
3 of means that you want to see one pretty early and maybe another a little later, but you don't want you hand clogged with them.
2 of is a card that you want to see 1 of by mid or late game, but rarely do you want to see more than one of them.
1 of's are cards that are highly situational and are generally tutor targets/silver bullets.
That being said, running multiple tutors for a card type will then shift all of the cards of that type up one step (2 if they are the primary targets of the tutor).
I am really intrigued by the Elightened Tutor path. With Counterbalance out, it becomes a counterspell + draw fixer. Also, it allows for enchantment tutoring so you could maybe cut down on the numbers of some of the enchantments and tutor for threads easily. also, it allows you to play like a singletonCrucible of Worlds and tutor up the all important 3cc spells for Counterbalance.
Your decklist is very similiar to the decks that recently won a fairly large tournament over in Europe, TarmoDreadstill(maybe a few cards dif). I've been advocating for a while now that a 2nd EE in the main I think is alot stronger then Needle in the maindeck. And for the last slot I think it should definetally be the 3rd Dreadnought, as he tends to just end games rediculously fast and having two you will not see him very much.
i agree, needle has been cute, but not very effective. i rarely tutor for it. do you still think that mage is superior to enlightened tutor? i understand the roll that he fills as a tutor and a beater and if needed a pitch to FoW, but it just seems so painful to tap out to play him. i started working on a tutor deck list and in my initial testing, even though i put in a 21st land (plains) i seem to have a really hard time getting hands with 2-3 lands (granted, this is the mws shuffler). i either get 1 or like 5, neither of which are a really good choice.
Mage is most definetally a great spot in the deck as he essentially is a beater, pitcher, and tutor as you said. Enlightened Tutor I personally have never really been too fond of, but people have put up results with it before. I don't like how it's card disadvantage mostly but it can be alright in the right deck. Something to start thinking about with E-tutorQuote:
Originally Posted by Ch0z3n
1x O-ring
1x Shackles
1x Tormod's Crypt
Also, you can run 3 tops maindeck as oposed to two, it helps to dig for your missing lands alot easier if you only have a 1-lander.
in a Ugw deck, what is your view on meddling mages? there dont seem to be a whole lot of decks i side them in against (though it could just be i dont have the experience with the deck). i mean in the mirror, if they arent running green ill put them on dreadnoughts, against landstill i usually put them on humility. but i usually dont want to cut off my own kgrips.
crucible of worlds: im kinda iffy on it. it could in certain situations be game breaking, but usually seems to just be a clunky 'win more' card. it seems like it deserves a singleton sb slot vs some decks, but my sideboard is kinda full already. maybe ill take your advice and move a tormod's crypt main and put that in its place.
Is Trinket Mage so important as a beater that you couldn't run Dizzy Spell for it? For the same cost, you could fetch EITHER Nought or Stifle, as well as Top, Brainstorm, Needle, Extirpate etc. Not Explosives and Crypt though...
i think you would use the trinket mages over dizzy spell. the only argument against the mages is that they cost 3, and dizzy spell doesnt change that. although, it would be kinda cute to hard cast dizzy spell on one of their dudes then steal it with shackles.
ive been toying around with a list with enlightened tutors. ill post it when i get off work to see what yall think.
A build with maindecked B2B to hose down decks like ITF and Landstill.
// Lands
1 [U] Volcanic Island
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
9 [BD] Island (2)
// Creatures
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
1 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [US] Back to Basics
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [7E] Pyroclasm
This build is just in testing right now but I think it can be pretty good considering there's a bunch of Threshold/Landstill and such in my meta.
you dont think that you are unnecessarily aggravating match-ups that arent reliant on non-basic lands by running b2b main? maybe if you used some kind of draw that let you pitch them in match-ups they arent needed? i guess its the same reason i dont like running things like kgrip main. i just hate drawing dead cards ;/
True...I tried B2B main, but it's a bit too narrow. Decks that it's not hot against include the Stompy decks, Stax, Goblins, Combo (ok, not much worry about that one), Ichorid, and decks that play more than one basic land in general. It has SOME effect there, but is exactly backbreaking.
i felt so ashamed. i lost to a lich deck in testing. granted, i didnt know what was going on game 1 and i never made my third land drop game 3 for my o-ring and 2x kgrips in hand and i couldnt get a stifle effect for his academy rector leave play.
Cavius is well known for designing the most BROKEN decks ever like Nourishing Lich. You had lost before you even played him sadly as it is that broke >;(. It wasn't in the DTB forum for 4 years for nothing you know! /endsarcasmQuote:
Originally Posted by Ch0z3n
Cavius didn't even create it, some dude from Germany did, lol.
Mainboard
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant
3 Trinked Mage
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
3 Standstill
3 Daze
2 Trickbind
2 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Echoing Truth
3 Extirpate
1 Pithing Needle
4 Threads of Disloyalty / BEB / Tormods Crypt
Any thoughts for a black list?
That list is pretty tight Chaos, the only thing that finds me untriguing is your minimal number of Counterbalance. That card is broken as hell I couldn't ever see someone going below 3 of those.
Yes, the third CB is card nr°61 or i cut one Confidant or Thoughtseize.
But Confidant is so strong in this build, also Thoughtseize. Take your opponents removal, counter or winoption.
But as you said the deck is really tight and theres not much space to waste.
4 engineered plague in the sb? my sideboard is always very crowded, are they really that good for you?
What else would you play in a UB build? Sure you could play 3 or no Plague if theres no Goblin / Sliver / Elfes! in your meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch0z3n
Over here in Germany the tournaments are ~50-70 people so that you always have to face some of theese decks in the first two rounds.
Other SB-choices are: EE, BtB, Smother, Chill, Mind Harness ...
thats not fair =( lets switch. the only legacy tourneys around here are ~10 people once a month and it is more than an hour away.